Is this right, or even legal?

[ToastiestZombie]

A very troublesome and messed up kid had stolen a can of drink from our cafeteria. He's in foster care because his dad left him and his mother is a raging alcoholic (although sober for a few months she couldn't go back to the kid), so pretty much hes a messed up kid. His reasons for stealing the can were that he was thirsty, didn't have any money (for obvious reasons). Those are some pretty good reasons but what he did was still wrong. I'm not here to dwell on the action, i'm here to say about the punishment he was given. The school couldn't suspend him for some reason, and detention would never work on this boy. The punishment the head chose was that he had to clean the toilets for half the school say. It isn't just cleaning the sinks and what not, its cleaning all the toilets, the urine filled urinals and the clogged up sinks (clogged up with god knows what). He has to do this against his will and probably in front of passing kids and teachers. One of the things that saddens me about this kid is that punishment doesn't really affect him in any way shape or form, which basically makes this forced labor that will only worsen the child's view of the school. Sometime after he was told that was his punishment my mother said that he came into the school's support room and burst into tears, he said that all he wanted was his mum back. In my point of view that is probably directly linked to being said that you will have to do the humiliating job of cleaning someones filth.

tl:dr. Messed up kid with a bad home life steals a can of drink. Gets the punishment of cleaning the school toilets for half the school day. Later has a breakdown, crying and pleading for his mum to come back.

So escapees, what do you think of this. Can any people good in law tell me if this type of punishment is even legal in the UK?

[EDIT] Just came to me that in my school, the maximum you can pay for a drink is £1. This kid would never be able to pay that back so the school decided that £1 stolen was enough for him to do hours of labor just because he couldn't pay the school back.

[EDIT numero dos!] To people saying that he will learn that he wont do it again, he wont. My mother has worked with him for a long time and she knows that the only thing that will happen to him is that the next time he does it, he'll try harder not to get caught.

[EDIT numero tres!] Removed the bit about him not liking water since many people here are just using that to say that he deserved it, when truly that fact is very very trivial.

 

[viranimus]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

 

[Trivun]

In my opinion, the kids needs to see a counselor. That being said, I'm also in the UK and I've not heard of any of our schools having counselors, though sometimes I think they should. Either way, I reckon the punishment was excessive (not sure if it's illegal or not though), but yeah, he should have been given something like detention regardless of how well it would work, then made to see a counselor. It's clear to me that he needs psychological help from the professionals given his circumstances, otherwise he's just going to end up on a slippery slope from which it's difficult to recover. I may not agree with the PM on a lot of things but he's right about Broken Britain, and I think the best way to prevent the country from getting worse is to help kids like this guy while they're young before they end up as the dregs of society.

EDIT: I say all this and I do believe in it, but there is something else I feel I should mention - when kids are already society's scumbags and can't be helped in conventional means, then using the sort of discipline they will respond to is something I feel is acceptable too. That is, bring back caning and corporal punishment, and National Service. Teachers have too little power now and are sometimes even running scared in their own classrooms, harsher discipline would do wonders to make things better...

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

I'm with you on that one. Not liking the water doesn't really give you an excuse, I'm sorry.

I don't know about the law, but I think this is an effective punishment.

 

[Kathinka]

can't say anything about the UK, but in germany and the czech republic, where i spent most of my school years, it wouldn't be legal. in germany there isn't even a detention system. that's right, it's illegal to force students to stay in school for anything that isn't classes in germany. americans have a hard time believing that^^ and still behavior of german students is much better than that of american students for some reason (yes, i can say, i went to school in the u.s. for a year). so this whole punishment-system is seriously flawed somewhere.

that being said: does this guy need to be disciplined in some way? absolutely..

 

[TheNumber1Zero]

Well I doubt he'll do it again, and that's one of the points of punishment, although I will agree that they could've gone quite lighter and still achieved a desirable result.

There's also the fact that he stole because he didn't like water, which is not a good reason. It is putting personal preference above morals. It may be a simple can of soda, but such thinking isn't exactly a good thing, hence the punishment with the goal if snuffing such thoughts like a cigarette bud.

Also it apparently got him to open up, albeit I doubt in a good way as it probably have had to do with stress from the cleaning getting stacked upon the apparent stress of his mother being gone for such a long time finally causing him to crumple into a weeping mess.
But that wasn't part of the reason, and making somebody turn into said weeping mess is a rather bad thing to do.

Whether or not it's right in general can be hard to say, as many people have different opinions of punishment (Just go to the R & P Board and look up past arguments on Execution Vs. Life), but I'm guessing it was Legal Aaand I somehow missed the last part where you mention the UK, so no clue.

Before I say whether or not it was right in my personal opinion, I would like to know if being "A very troublesome and messed up kid" Means he has done other wrong things at School, how many/long he has done/been doing them, and the various types he has done
Repeat offences may explain why they decided with the humiliation tactic as their chosen resort, and whether or not it may have been acceptable at the very least.

Didn't expect to write so much.

 

[LordFisheh]

I'm not sure about legality; it'd depend on the country.

Morally, I'm torn. On the one hand, I don;t believe immoral actions should be tolerated at all. Considering how easy it is to not steal things, people should be punished pretty damn hard for doing so.

However, I also despise how schools can operate like this. The teachers run their own little kingdom where they exercise authority that their 'subjects', the kids, can never question or disagree with. Frankly, it doesn't matter if it's legal, because schools know well that no one will ever take them to task for what they do. I think some teachers are far too hung up on the 'rights' their authority gives them when, in my opinion, they should have nothing but responsibility and the power needed to exercise it.

 

[ShindoL Shill]

i dont think it is. my school has a fucking dumbass 'demerit' system, and that is NOT on there.
i think that that would count as child endangerment, because someone might have a serious infection and a child wouldnt know proper safety or techniques for not, y'know, accidentally giving the whole school gonorrhea or something. and at least my school gives the people that cant afford food a couple of pounds a day for lunch (depending on how poor you are).
and, i'm sorry, if you make a child who's comfortable with petty theft break down into tears with your punishment, you are a dick. there is no two ways about it, you are a massive fucking wanker.

 

[lacktheknack]

Personally, I think the kid is being manipulative (which happens a lot in "messed up kids", make no mistake). I've had to do toilet washing before against my will, and if they give you long gloves, it's not a quarter as bad as it sounds.

 

[SuperiorityComplex]

I went to school in the UK. We had kids suspended for fighting, for trying to pass forged notes, the lot. But for nicking a can of drink when he's thirsty? No.

Aside from anything else, apart from the odd water fountain, there was no place to get a decent cup of something to drink unless you bought something from the canteen. With the amount of work being done at our school in the five years I was there, half the time the water wasn't drinkable. I say this as someone who would rather spend their food money on a can of Coke if I had to, rather than drink water, but the principle is the same.

I don't believe the legality of it should be the question. The actual acceptability of it should be. If the kid is that bad, exclude him. If not, work with him. Don't leave him standing cleaning toilets half the school day (and essentially missing out on classes as a result), with kids around using said toilets and probably making his job far more difficult as a result.

There are ways to deal with kids, troublesome or not. The humiliation tactic is akin to bullying every time, because it is humiliation and it *is* degrading. The legality shouldn't be the question, but the acceptability of it should be.

 

[DuctTapeJedi]

It seems pretty awful. Sitting kids down and talking things out usually works a lot better, in my experience.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

But think of this way, even adults don't have to clean peoples shit if they steal one can of beer. They would do into jail for on or two nights. Bearing im mind that he was crying not because of the punishment, its because he has had one of the worst life's you can have for a first world kid, and this may have just cemented the fact that he thinks he's a worthless kid in this society.

Also, you would never want to give kudos to my headteacher, he is one of the most unsympathetic and all around dickish headteachers ever. He once said that losing a family member is no excuse for slacking off and called all the kids in the school "not good enough for society". He would of just suspended him but he couldn't for some dumb legal reason, so this is what him and one of his staff thought would be a reasonable and good punishment for him.

 

[The Virgo]

I do think scrubbing the urinals is a bit harsh for stealing a soda. That's the kind of punishment I would save for bullies and highly troublesome folks. Scrubbing the sinks would be more appropriate; it's still hard work, but shit and piss is not involved.

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

Yes, but it's not like the kid is a necessarily a troublesome sort. The OP said a "Messed Up kid". That doesn't mean he's constantly getting into trouble. I think scrubbing the sinks would have been a much more suitable task. There are a lot more deserving people (bullies) who deserve to be scrubbing toilets.

And the chances are just as good that he'll do more bad things as a way of revenge than that he will NOT do bad things.

 

[esperandote]

Well, you said that they couldn't suspend him and detention wouldn't affect him so i guess it was right depending on how many toilets will he have to clean and if he's given the right tools to do so.

I understand this kid has had it hard but not liking water is a pretty lame excuse to steal.

 

[Davih]

Well the punishment worked. The child felt punished, and probably learned that what he did was wrong. In that regard, the punishment was fitting, although it may have been a bit excessive, I don't see anything wrong with it. Also, why are the cleaners not cleaning the toilets?

That is, bring back caning and corporal punishment, and National Service.

I don't agree with a teacher hitting a child. A parent hitting their own child is acceptable in my view, but a teacher isn't. Why should teachers get to beat other peoples children? National service I do not see anything wrong with though.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

To be completely honest? I don't think it was "Wrong" for him to steal the drink in the first place.

Stealing is NOT inherently wrong.

And obviously, that punishment is FAR too extreme for trying to grab some soda.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Personally, I think the kid is being manipulative (which happens a lot in "messed up kids", make no mistake). I've had to do toilet washing before against my will, and if they give you long gloves, it's not a quarter as bad as it sounds.

If you think a kid being manipulative is bad. The senior staff member who helped with the decision, from my mum's point of view had always been nice to the girls even if they were being right pricks, and punishing the boys for any little thing they do. He also says how pretty the girl's look right to their faces. Lets just say that many people in the school have their concerns.

Anyway, you should see our toilets, there is some persons half eaten lunch laying in the piss filled urinal. Half the time its out of order because the kids in our school block the urinal and the whole room kills with piss and water. So basically, it will not be nice for him.

 

[Amethyst Wind]

No, it isn't legal. This is corporal punishment, which is not permitted with minors and is a very grey area with adults. The headteacher should be fired on the spot for that one.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

No, it isn't legal. This is corporal punishment, which is not permitted with minors and is a very grey area with adults. The headteacher should be fired on the spot for that one.

The governers have been trying to get the guy out since the first year he was there. But they cant because he's a sly and manipulative bastard who does terrible, terrible stuff like this and gets away with it, mainly because he's a good talker.