All manner of societies, exploitative and not, could make it to space. It is probably best not to assume anything whatsoever about them, including what they would regard as progress.
Israeli official claims aliens exist, Trump didn't tweet about them
- Thread starter Eacaraxe
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We don't have anything material to offer them, but I'd imagine (unless there's zillions of worlds that independently got life) we might be of scientific or cultural interest. Comparing how life works here compared to there, what sorts of buildings we have, of interest to academics and tourists.
You could also argue that a species advanced enough to not wipe themselves out in the last zillion years they've had the ability to must be pretty good at not harming people. That's even more of a guess than my last point, though.
Or at least that the harms they perpetrate do not result in too much instability.
I agree, my point was that I often see people declare with a tone of certainty, that 1. They won't be nice to us and 2. They will treat us like shit because they will be advanced, so why wouldn't they?
Which I find rather silly, since it's all speculation, but it simply disregards the fact that WE have improved our way of dealing with other life forms as we evolve, and so there's no reason to just assume other beings wouldn't have that capacity as well. As I said, I could be wrong too, and they could be the typical hive swarm "eat everything" trope we see, but they could also be something else. So don't just assume any one idea about them. And the post I quoted initially stated "Hollywood got it right" and then went on to cite examples of the "kill everything" trope. Which is just silly.
"Won’t be nice." "Treat us like shit." I just want to point out that those are two very “human” concepts and entirely relative to us and our perception of the world… as in Earth. I’m in America, where cleaning your plate (as in eating all the food on it) is a compliment to your host; it means you were satisfied with every bite of your meal. Yet I’ve also heard tell there are places outside of the US where cleaning your plate is an insult; it means you didn’t get enough to eat, and your host has somehow failed you; it’s considered proper to leave a bite or two as a nod to the wonderful abundance you were provided. And these two very disparate ways of thinking are considered “nice” by people from the same planet. Thinking that alien visitors from another, entirely inhuman world would necessarily adhere to our ever-evolving sense of human morality or “niceness” is… well, I’ll just say as I have this entire thread: unlikely.
Assuming you’re referencing my posts again, I just want to say I’m not prescribing or assuming the motive of any and all speculative aliens to be malevolent; I’m just acknowledging that given the infinite possibilities of the universe, aliens are more likely to be far different from us than they are similar, and based on my experience with human curiosity, it can lead to unintended harm. Back to the abduction and probing trope; I personally “speculate” that’s more likely to be our experience with aliens were they to visit is today. Do I think it’s actually happened? Not really, but then again, I don’t know, so I guess, as in my spiritual life, I’m taking the Agnostic route: maybe, maybe not.
But for fun:
Yes I was referring to your post, as it was the entire crux of my content in this thread, beyond silly comments. I'm just referring to the verbage you used in your post. "Hollywood GOT IT RIGHT", that's not speculation, that's implying that you think this is the correct way things will play out. Which is why I made my entire post. Simply to point out that saying that is how it will happen, is speculation, and it's a speculation, that at it's core, is dependent on assuming that a species, with thousands of years of advancement and evolution beyond us, don't ever develop the idea of "hey, maybe we shouldn't be assholes to other species simply because we can." And my whole point, is simply that, WE, as humans, aren't even at that stage collectively. Yes, plenty of our numbers don't give a shit about anything but themselves, but plenty of people DO empathize with other beings, and in fact dedicate their lives to advocating for the other species that interact with us on this planet. And we're not even alone in our cross-species empathy, as there is plenty of evidence of other animals exhibiting traits of compassion and empathy for things not of their species. And we are getting better, bit by bit, year by year. So, because of that, I think, using humanity as a baseline(and other examples of empathy/compassion between species), and advancing our society by thousands of years, and accounting for as many factors, like social evolution and change (which seems to move fairly steadily based on our own history), I don't see us being as shitty as we are now, thousands of years from now. Which is why I don't think it's likely, a species that had survived long enough to get to the stage needed for FTL, would still be at that stage.
Now I appreciate that maybe you were just using words, and didn't actually mean you felt, definitively that this IS how it will be. I know we are all prone to loose language when just chatting online, and this is a fairly ridiculous thread topic in the first place. I wasn't trying to condemn you or anything, simply trying to point out, that the whole "they will kill us all because why wouldn't they" viewpoint, just seems to intentionally disregard everything about how an intelligent species might change with time, and just boils down to "they have bigger guns, they will pew pew us because they can". And we don't even see that across the board with our own species. So I personally think it's just not a good stance to toss out there.
And to keep from whipping a dead, speculative, hypothetical horse, in a thread about a ridiculous conspiracy theory any further, that's the last I'll say on the matter. Mostly because my Ancient Alien Architect Overlords have ordered me to stop talking on the matter.
Lol, well, if you're in direct contact with Alien Architect Overlords, maybe you should stop claiming to be speculating, and give us some first hand info! (Please apologize to them if they now suspect I think they're objectively evil!)
Don't drop out of the conversation over my poorly conveyed sentiments.
Ok, fair enough. My exact quote, which might not have come across as intended was:
The "one thing they got right" I was referring to was the aliens' general disregard for us; that as we stand, i.e.: substantially inferior and primitive, we'd not be worth their time for any substantive collaboration, as suggested in the OP's suggestion of treaties and R&D. I did not intend to imply they'd necessarily be some malevolent force bent on our destruction for destruction's sake. Maybe 1993's Fire In The Sky would have been a better example of how I'd see "first contact" playing out, but that's a bit more obscure a reference. There was no communication, no diplomacy, no sharing of knowledge and technology, none of the so optimistic "welcome to the universe, Earthlings" tonality; people were abducted, experimented on and released with their minds ostensibly wiped of the experience, not unlike the fish we yank from the ocean, tag and return for our own curiosity.
Don't drop out of the conversation over my poorly conveyed sentiments.
Nah it's fine, I mean it's not a really important discussion anyway. I just find, that debates like this, tend to spiral out of control the longer they go on. So I just try and curtail my content in them, depending on the severity of the topic. Also, when I think I've stated my point enough times where no further reiteration is going to make a change, then I'm just like "ok well, I've said my piece, going to let this just fade away." Not mad or frustrated or anything, just reached my limit of "time I want to invest on the theoretical ethical stance of a hypothetical alien species if/when we ever encounter them, which frankly would be LOOOONG after I'm dead, if ever"
I'm almost 100% certain those are race and class descriptions from some tabletop roleplaying games I've played over the years. Solar Warden in particular.
I think one of the major factors influencing us being nicer to each other is that we are more comfortable. What's the old saying about life being "short, nasty and brutish"? That will often induce harshness. But when you need less struggle to make sure you are warm, fed, and safe, that's likely to be reflected in a more live and let live attitude to others. However, this means future reduced shittiness depends on increasing comfort. That might not be the way we go, as at various points under severe stress, civilisation has gone backwards.
The problem with aliens is that they might be extremely different indeed. Lots of animals in this world show fairly little regard for other species or even sometimes their own species, even their own kin. There's every possibility an alien species might be radically "speciesist", or simply lack much in the way of empathy for anything at all. Broadly, however, I'd suggest any species that could develop civilisation would have to have some concept of working co-operatively with other individuals, which would probably mean social attitudes conducive to not exterminating any sentient beings they encountered.
It's possible our softer lives further encourages our nice behavior, however I'm pretty sure our empathic tendency as a species TO work together, and not constantly decide to just respond with "fuck you, I'mma get mine", is HOW we were able to develop society, and improve as a species. We learned that "hey, you know we all seem to be better off when we don't act like assholes, and agree to not be dicks to each other. We are spending less time killing each other, and can thus spend time improving our station in life." That's pretty much the definition of a social animal. So I think you are right, but I think you might have it backwards as to which thing caused the other. You theorize "we have soft life, thus we are nice", I, and I'm pretty sure I've heard some scientists that actually study this field say that it's more like "we were nice, thus we have soft life."
As to your second paragraph, yes I agree, and that's been my point. I've acknowledged that I could be wrong, and the Swarm trope of aliens might be accurate. But as you say, I too find it unlikely that a species that is intelligent enough to lick FTL, wouldn't also develop the level of intelligence needed to see that rampant consumption and disregard for all other things, isn't a good model for existence.
I could be wrong, I don't think so, simply given how many other species, on our planet alone, that are considered to be highly intelligent, display traits of cross-species empathy, like dolphins/whales saving humans from aquatic threats, and similar examples (when it really doesn't provide any direct benefit to them), I think it's more likely that this would be the case, than the alternative.
The two are not mutually exclusive, though. In any case, you can look at the amounts of money and violence in societies and see changes to both in fairly short times, that seems to support things being better distracting people from their hatreds. Though it seems that you are speaking in terms of the species in evolutionary terms and Agema in terms of civilisations in terms of generations.
our societal traits are part of our evolutionary traits. Also, evolutionary traits are by definition, "terms of generations" so it's not different from Agema's point in that regard. But yes, I am talking about how a species changes over long stretches of time, which is what we keep saying is the case for this theoretical alien race, that is "thousands of years more advanced than us". My whole point, is that species change doesn't exist in a vacuum, and as our tech evolves, so do we. You just have to look back in our own history say, 2000 years, to see how much significant changes we've made, on how we view reality, and how we treat each other. It's not a perfect, 100% improvement no, but it IS an improvement, that seems to get better, with each subsequent generation. The old views die out, the new ones grow and prosper. We have setbacks, from pockets of douchebags that stir up trouble, but on the long term, we are improving. And that improvement is trending towards a less violent, less dominant way of viewing life and how we interact with it. I see no reason to think that won't continue 2000 years from now.
