It feels like people around my age are falling through the cracks of society
- Thread starter Sutter Cane
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unprofessional? I dont know...it sounds like some fairly useful advice/informationaba1 said:
also if we didn't badmouth the likes of Rob Liefeld then some people might not have picked out his total disregard for anatomy, or saw what can seperate good from bad art and in turn get motivated to draw and again and get better (or dare I say good) at it
I mean if there is a chance that one of those freinds you mentioned might be on the forum then ok...but otherwise I think it was yahtzee who said "the worst thing you can do is tell an artist their work is great when it isnt"
Its not the same as petty badmouthing/insults if it leads to improvment..for anyone
Well, to be honest, you're still a noob.Sutter Cane said:
In video game terms, college is just the tutorial phase. You only have your beginner equipment, maybe some slightly shinier sword, and have just worked out the basics of the interface. You've got a long hard grind before you reach max level, or even complete your character's build plan. So get to grinding that exp, and be smart about what you grind.
On the other hand, if you're still disillusioned with life back home, go take a 4 week CELTA course, and join us in foreign countries teaching English. I started just 3 years ago, and already run my own school, living a life that my friends back home can only dream of.
As a friend I will give constructive criticism as a professional I stay neutral. Telling people they terrible at their job is just is unprofessional from my position and can't lead to anything good.Vault101 said:
Like I said before, going through college for these things makes a huge difference it means years of training from other professionals. You can learn anything of the net that doesn't mean you understand things on the same level as a professionally trained pro.
Also worth saying design and fine art and not the same thing. They have some shared principles sure but they are very different over all. Even fine art and design are very broad there are tons of different types of fine artists and designers who specialize in very different things.
Just want to throw my two cents in, even though I'm sure that what I'm about to say has already been said. Hooray for skimming!
Anyway, there are several things wrong with the mentality you have. Hear me out here, don't just dismiss me thinking that I've already dismissed you. It's a common mistake most people around our age make (21 here) in thinking that a degree is either completely worthless or the end-all-be-all. It is neither. Degrees are worthless because everyone has one. This goes doubly for people in high-demand fields or people who have "fun/dream" degrees (liberal arts, philosophy, acting, etc; things that don't have a direct impact on improving society, as opposed to medicine, engineering, etc), everyone already has a degree. What a lot of people don't have is experience in anything at this point.
What I'd recommend to you is go find a job that has nothing to do with your field. Go work in food service, or tech support, or something with the absolute bitchiest customers you can find. Now hold this job for at least a year. And no bouncing, every time you get a new job, you double how long you have to stay there before the damage from leaving your old job is done. You see, with 3 years of McDonald's experience under my belt, employers in the tech business know that I can deal with the worst of both customers and management, and that I'm able to stick with the job and put in a lot of hard work. All of these are ideal qualities in any employee, and being able to prove with work history, ANY work history, that you have them will do more for getting you a job than your degree could ever hope to.
All that being said, however, don't discount your degree completely. While you need the experience and blah blah blah, before you can enter ANY field, you need to prove that you have learned the basics to doing your job. Any degree you can get shows that you've learned some basic knowledge, and the more specific and related to the desired career you can get, the better. Also the higher the degree, the better. I see you said you're 20? Associates' degrees have never been worth the paper they've been printed on, you need to pursue a Bachelor's or Master's before you can get anywhere. Or, as has been said many times before, go to a trade school. Get something so ridiculously specific, that you'll be a sure-in for whatever career you want.
Now, for a general feel of things, not just education/job related...
Please understand that these economic times happen. Most people our age can't remember all that well, but the DotCom bubble bursting at the turn of the millennium was seen at the time as an incredibly devastating event that we would never be able to recover from. And, despite the terrible economy, the stock market is either close to or already setting new records again. People see what they want to see. Right now you want to see desolation and you're the victim, but that's not really the case.
Let's keep things in perspective. We'll use the Republican's pessimistic numbers and say that 18% of Americans are un- or under-employed. That means that you walk by 5 people on the street, 4 of them are gainfully employed. That's still a massive overwhelming majority of Americans employed at this time. Just remember, you have to have something to offer, a slip of paper is the bare-minimum for entry these days.
Also bear in mind that the young have always been shafted before. Not even a century ago it would have been a miracle for you to have even lived as long as you have. And without a lifetime's experience, you don't know what it's really like to be shafted terribly, so even minor things tend to get to you. You also haven't had the opportunity to see the cycles that this takes, so this one downturn, the only one you remember, is the worst thing you've ever known.
So chin up, get out there, and make something of yourself. After all, a rolling stone gathers no moss; a moving person gathers no cobwebs; any other way you want to look at it. The only way to make something of yourself is to get out there and do it. Sitting, whining, and complaining has never done anything for anybody. All the great leaders and heroes of the world got there by hard work, determination, and admittedly a little luck. But none of them got anywhere by sitting on their asses saying "woe is me".
Anyway, there are several things wrong with the mentality you have. Hear me out here, don't just dismiss me thinking that I've already dismissed you. It's a common mistake most people around our age make (21 here) in thinking that a degree is either completely worthless or the end-all-be-all. It is neither. Degrees are worthless because everyone has one. This goes doubly for people in high-demand fields or people who have "fun/dream" degrees (liberal arts, philosophy, acting, etc; things that don't have a direct impact on improving society, as opposed to medicine, engineering, etc), everyone already has a degree. What a lot of people don't have is experience in anything at this point.
What I'd recommend to you is go find a job that has nothing to do with your field. Go work in food service, or tech support, or something with the absolute bitchiest customers you can find. Now hold this job for at least a year. And no bouncing, every time you get a new job, you double how long you have to stay there before the damage from leaving your old job is done. You see, with 3 years of McDonald's experience under my belt, employers in the tech business know that I can deal with the worst of both customers and management, and that I'm able to stick with the job and put in a lot of hard work. All of these are ideal qualities in any employee, and being able to prove with work history, ANY work history, that you have them will do more for getting you a job than your degree could ever hope to.
All that being said, however, don't discount your degree completely. While you need the experience and blah blah blah, before you can enter ANY field, you need to prove that you have learned the basics to doing your job. Any degree you can get shows that you've learned some basic knowledge, and the more specific and related to the desired career you can get, the better. Also the higher the degree, the better. I see you said you're 20? Associates' degrees have never been worth the paper they've been printed on, you need to pursue a Bachelor's or Master's before you can get anywhere. Or, as has been said many times before, go to a trade school. Get something so ridiculously specific, that you'll be a sure-in for whatever career you want.
Now, for a general feel of things, not just education/job related...
Please understand that these economic times happen. Most people our age can't remember all that well, but the DotCom bubble bursting at the turn of the millennium was seen at the time as an incredibly devastating event that we would never be able to recover from. And, despite the terrible economy, the stock market is either close to or already setting new records again. People see what they want to see. Right now you want to see desolation and you're the victim, but that's not really the case.
Let's keep things in perspective. We'll use the Republican's pessimistic numbers and say that 18% of Americans are un- or under-employed. That means that you walk by 5 people on the street, 4 of them are gainfully employed. That's still a massive overwhelming majority of Americans employed at this time. Just remember, you have to have something to offer, a slip of paper is the bare-minimum for entry these days.
Also bear in mind that the young have always been shafted before. Not even a century ago it would have been a miracle for you to have even lived as long as you have. And without a lifetime's experience, you don't know what it's really like to be shafted terribly, so even minor things tend to get to you. You also haven't had the opportunity to see the cycles that this takes, so this one downturn, the only one you remember, is the worst thing you've ever known.
So chin up, get out there, and make something of yourself. After all, a rolling stone gathers no moss; a moving person gathers no cobwebs; any other way you want to look at it. The only way to make something of yourself is to get out there and do it. Sitting, whining, and complaining has never done anything for anybody. All the great leaders and heroes of the world got there by hard work, determination, and admittedly a little luck. But none of them got anywhere by sitting on their asses saying "woe is me".
yeah...I supose....aba1 said:
[quote/]Also worth saying design and fine art and not the same thing. They have some shared principles sure but they are very different over all. Even fine art and design are very broad there are tons of different types of fine artists and designers who specialize in very different things.[/quote]
I knew that (more or less) I was just curious as to how much of a differnece going the teritary education route made...
Well, I'm 35 and I'm all but employable. I guess I have to blame my laziness. Despite that I've been doing custodial work forever. I'm not saying that I'm too lazy to make something of myself, but I've tried going to school off and on. I found it to be quite frustrating trying to go to school and still work 40 hours. I'm at the point where I've got to do something. Right now all I have is part-time job making 8/hour and there no way anyone can live off that.
I don't need anyone reminding me that I'm a failure at life. I just need to find a way to move forward so I can support myself again. Despite my lack of a formal education I've had periods in my life where I was making GREAT money. So maybe I'll go learn a trade. I've already amassed 10k in loans thanks to ITT tech. What's a little more to learn a trade?
I don't need anyone reminding me that I'm a failure at life. I just need to find a way to move forward so I can support myself again. Despite my lack of a formal education I've had periods in my life where I was making GREAT money. So maybe I'll go learn a trade. I've already amassed 10k in loans thanks to ITT tech. What's a little more to learn a trade?
I'm actually quite surprised by the amount of people saying they need 3-5 years of experience to get a job. Over here that's not necessary at all, heck many (paid) trainingship programs even refuse people with more than 3 years experience. And my lack of experience was never being said to be a reason why i wasn't given a job (but than again i didn't apply for that many jobs yet)
you come to autralia and take a single fucking job i am applying to and i will rip the fucking heart out of your chest!!Auron225 said:
in all seriousness the job market in australia is brutal right now. back when i was 12 i could walk into any menial labour job and be practically guaranteed a job and somewhat decent pay - that is to say while it used to be slightly above minimum wage (12-14 an hour) that money went alot further than minimum wage does these days (17.70).
FFS when i was 17 i was earning more than my principle (28/h) and the only requirements when i applied were - can you press a button? you cool with staying up late? got all your arms and legs? K you're hired, there's a forklift over there if you wanna play with it. try not to kill yourself.
these days they want 5 years experience in insanely specific roles and a half dozen qualifications just to say you know how to survive for more than 5 minuets without maiming yourself and each job description has requirements like "must be able to weld, have trade experience preferably tiler/electrician/plumber. pays minimum wage" without realizing anyone with those sort of skills is either working for themselves earning 3x as much cash in hand or already employed by someone who would give their right nut to keep em there
capture: in the doldrums. fuck you capture
yes tough week looking for a job. and its monday
You make a good point, I like the way you think, but in my country for example, the real workers, as in people with trades, get a shitty payout, no matter where they work. My mother for example is a tailor, she makes the most beautiful clothes you can imagine, and people come to her because she makes them cheaper than you get in the store, but she works her ass off every day, I on the other hand I'm one of those guys that went to uni, I did it because I got a free pass scolarship because of the good grades, if I had to pay for it I would have said "screw you!", I know have a bachelor's in engineering but the city I live in is dead! it's strictly commercial, no development.Fatboy_41 said:
In any case, nice post, I value people that actually know how to build stuff and are not afraid of doing the dirty work when need be.
Of course, the tricky part is qualifying for a work visa... and by 'tricky' I mean 'next to impossible if you don't have recognised qualifications in a field that currently has a labour shortfall'...Auron225 said:
Distilled to it's very essence the current policy on obtaining a Work Visa for Australia is "if you're not a tradie, engineer or doctor, you can fuck off."
George's words on the American dream were- they call it the dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it.Mycroft Holmes said:
I've said it quite a few times before, young people today are quite screwed. My best advice to young people would be to avoid debt and keep employed, even if it is at Wal-Mart, and never stop looking for a better job.
That's basically what I did.
There are two people who do my job, I have an associates degree that I got from 18-28 by taking various courses at community college when I had the money... the other guy has a masters degree. It's not a great job, I grossed just a little over 37,000 last year. I should find out this week whether or not I move up as I am applying for another job in my company which pays around 21$ an hour.
At the interview, I explained how I did not have a bachelors because I had a hard time deciding on a 4 year program, and instead told them all about my experience in my personal life and past employment for my field. They said I seemed "jazzed" about doing this kind of work and were genuinely impressed with my knowledge and exuberance. Sometimes that's all it takes. I also set up a lunch meeting with a few of the department heads 3 months prior after getting really good compliments in the course of my regular work, while helping out of the guys who used to work in that department who was retired. People will open up doors for you if you work hard and have a little bit a of talent, regardless of whether or not you have a degree.
Maybe not everywhere, but at places that have a decent corporate culture this is true.
First thing to realize is that a job is not to be viewed only as a source of income - it also lets you create a social circle and make connections. And it brings more variety into your life than being unemployed and a nusiance to yourself (trust me, if you have too much time on your hands, that's how you'll feel).
Second thing to realize is that there are more than three kinds of jobs - white collar, heavy lifting and burger flipping. The variety out there is impressive, so looking outside your comfort zone for interesting stuff is another way to find a niche for yourself. As a physics student, I never thought I'd end up working in the media, but that's how it turned out, and I'm one of those lucky folks who actually enjoy their work even when it's stressful. Having a good team who has each other's backs and can adapt on the fly helps, of course.
Third, well...jobs don't grow on threes, we all know that. For every one who gets a job, there are likely at least dozens who don't, but that's a problem that can't be tackled overnight so don't think about it too much.
Cookie-cutter CV's likely aren't the right idea either, but an even worse mistake you can make is overdoing it to stand out. You future employer isn't going to hire you because you're such a hoopy frood but because you convinced them that you can provide what they need. Don't be overconfident at the interview, admit that you have faults, but try to do so in a positive way, such as, speaking of myself, "I'm too much of a perfectionist sometimes". It's a sales pitch, just like real estate agents won't call an apartment "small", but "cozy" when pitching it to you. I had a lot of trouble getting past that, because "selling myself" rings too similar to "prostitution" for my comfort, but, myeah.
And the first thing when you do get a job is to remind yourself to not go "Mission accomplished".
Yeah, the current generation got screwed over by the previous ones and collectivelly has to pay off the debts incurred by them, but you gotta work with what you've got, not with what you think you should have.
Second thing to realize is that there are more than three kinds of jobs - white collar, heavy lifting and burger flipping. The variety out there is impressive, so looking outside your comfort zone for interesting stuff is another way to find a niche for yourself. As a physics student, I never thought I'd end up working in the media, but that's how it turned out, and I'm one of those lucky folks who actually enjoy their work even when it's stressful. Having a good team who has each other's backs and can adapt on the fly helps, of course.
Third, well...jobs don't grow on threes, we all know that. For every one who gets a job, there are likely at least dozens who don't, but that's a problem that can't be tackled overnight so don't think about it too much.
Cookie-cutter CV's likely aren't the right idea either, but an even worse mistake you can make is overdoing it to stand out. You future employer isn't going to hire you because you're such a hoopy frood but because you convinced them that you can provide what they need. Don't be overconfident at the interview, admit that you have faults, but try to do so in a positive way, such as, speaking of myself, "I'm too much of a perfectionist sometimes". It's a sales pitch, just like real estate agents won't call an apartment "small", but "cozy" when pitching it to you. I had a lot of trouble getting past that, because "selling myself" rings too similar to "prostitution" for my comfort, but, myeah.
And the first thing when you do get a job is to remind yourself to not go "Mission accomplished".
Yeah, the current generation got screwed over by the previous ones and collectivelly has to pay off the debts incurred by them, but you gotta work with what you've got, not with what you think you should have.
Here is my personal motivation. You may use it:Sutter Cane said:
"Life is hard, unfair and mostly misarable. Deal with it. Getting a job that is both well-paid and interesting is near impossible. So here is a choice for you: either stay loner for the rest of your life and work wherever you want and earn enough to survive, or marry, start a family and be willing to work your ass of on the most boring of all the jibs just to make life of your loved ones enjoyable. If you care for them, of course.
But if you are lucky enough to get a job, that is enjoyable AND well-paid, then grab it by the balls and do not let go, untill your eyes are blind, your arms are limp and your brain is almost dead."
Something like that.
As for devaluation of diplomas: what did you expect? In the past, most people did not go to universities, so people with higher education were treated as rarities.
Now, everyone is getting it, so employers can fastidiously choose whatever person they like. Democracy, babe. Everyone gets a chance, but the more people get it, the smaller it is.
This was attempted, I believe the labels applied were "spoiled, entitled kids taking a tantrum" along with coincidental smaller employed groups of obviously pre-planned violence to take up the front page of the newpapersbananafishtoday said:
For some reason the violence never goes near the residences of rich people, politicians, bankers and those who caused the problems...
I really hope you are joking... I assume when you go home after a hard day's work you just sit in a dark cave doing nothing?alfinchkid said:
Nonono, people with those "fun/dream degrees" want to work in a multi-billion pound industry, for a section of society that doesn't have a direct impact on improving society, they sure have a tonne of multi-millionaires and influence on the way our world works, even just this website needed a "fun/dream degree" to design - I hope you reflect on your ignorance because what you typed out is an insult to those who aspire, make a tonne of money and make many more people happy (yes, this improves society) than a mechanic ever could!
Apart from that, I agree with everything else
Captcha: Bet on Cheltenham at Betfair
I'm not a banker
It pisses me off a lot. I don't want to hear any shit about how I'm not applying for the right jobs, I'm applying for any job that I can do that isn't in an office cubicle. Why no office cubicles? Because those sorts of places are always so focused about getting to the top. Everyone'll stab each other in the back to get there, too. I can't work in that enviroment.
Everything else? I have to apply for something I know I can do. If you fuck up too badly, you get fired, you get fired in this economy, you don't get another fucking chance. Most things that ain't rocket science I can do, but I ain't getting a difficult job just to fuck up, get fired, then spend the rest of my life being judged for that one mistake, and don't fucking tell me they won't. They're already fucking judging me over stuff as asinine as the colour of my t-shirt.
I just want an honest days work for an honest days pay. I've did my volunteering, I've got plenty of qualifications, I've tried to keep myself busy, six years out of school and I have never claimed unemployment benefits, always going after more knowledge, as much education as I can get, I hate sitting on my ass for longer than a month.
But they still don't want me. I barely know why I bother trying anymore. It seems fucking obvious to me that they want to close every fucking door they can, well I'll eventually find one that I can smash the fuck down if I have to. In the meantime, I'm not taking any shit from people who think I'm not trying.
Everything else? I have to apply for something I know I can do. If you fuck up too badly, you get fired, you get fired in this economy, you don't get another fucking chance. Most things that ain't rocket science I can do, but I ain't getting a difficult job just to fuck up, get fired, then spend the rest of my life being judged for that one mistake, and don't fucking tell me they won't. They're already fucking judging me over stuff as asinine as the colour of my t-shirt.
I just want an honest days work for an honest days pay. I've did my volunteering, I've got plenty of qualifications, I've tried to keep myself busy, six years out of school and I have never claimed unemployment benefits, always going after more knowledge, as much education as I can get, I hate sitting on my ass for longer than a month.
But they still don't want me. I barely know why I bother trying anymore. It seems fucking obvious to me that they want to close every fucking door they can, well I'll eventually find one that I can smash the fuck down if I have to. In the meantime, I'm not taking any shit from people who think I'm not trying.