It turns out Bioware doesn't hate you all

[Strain42]

snip

Ok, well it really seems that you and I mostly agree on this subject. I think I had just mis-read a few things. We do seem to be on the same page though.

 

[Vegosiux]

I would put it like this. Take Bob Ross. Bob Ross can make a great landscape painting in 30 minutes. The man is f-ing magic. Now lets say that another artist makes the same painting, but using traditional painting techniques and it takes him 2 days.

Now, if someone where to say to me, "I think that Bob Ross's painting doesn't look as good as that other guy's painting" I think you would have an argument there that makes some sense. I'm sure you could point out that the leaves look more defined on the other guy's painting or it has more depth, or whatever. There are plenty of criteria for judging the quality of an image.

But what sense does it make to say that Bob Ross's painting isn't as good because he painted it in 30 minutes.

Bob Ross painted it himself. He didn't take a photo of the other guy's painting and slapped some of his own paint on it.

I also have no idea why I have to point this out; and I mean that in both potential meanings of that sentence.

 

[Strain42]

So again, I go back to my first question. Would people still be mad about Tali if they had just snapped a photo themselves during a lunch break or something and did the same thing they did to the stock photo? Basically spending the exact same amount of time and effort on it?

Because if they wouldn't be, then the complaints aren't about how she looks, and it's not about how much time or effort they spent...so what would be the issue?

 

[Elamdri]

I would put it like this. Take Bob Ross. Bob Ross can make a great landscape painting in 30 minutes. The man is f-ing magic. Now lets say that another artist makes the same painting, but using traditional painting techniques and it takes him 2 days.

Now, if someone where to say to me, "I think that Bob Ross's painting doesn't look as good as that other guy's painting" I think you would have an argument there that makes some sense. I'm sure you could point out that the leaves look more defined on the other guy's painting or it has more depth, or whatever. There are plenty of criteria for judging the quality of an image.

But what sense does it make to say that Bob Ross's painting isn't as good because he painted it in 30 minutes.

Bob Ross painted it himself. He didn't take a photo of the other guy's painting and slapped some of his own paint on it.

I also have no idea why I have to point this out; and I mean that in both potential meanings of that sentence.

Let me put it like this:

You commission Bob Ross to make a painting and tell him what you want to paint. Now, instead of making the entire painting from scratch, Bob does what you said and instead takes someone else's painting and slaps some of his own paint on it. Now, I can see how you could argue "Bob, you didn't do the work, so I'm not going to pay you as much for the painting." I could also see you saying "Bob, this isn't the painting that I wanted, so I'm not going to take it." What I don't understand is "Bob, this is the painting I wanted, but you didn't do all the work, so I'm not going to take it."

Does that make sense? I do not understand how the amount of work put into the creation of a product makes the product any less sufficient for it's purpose if the product is otherwise sufficient. I could understand how that is a justification for paying less for the product, because we assume that payment is both a function of quality and effort. But it does not make sense to hinge the acceptability on the amount of effort.

 

[Elamdri]

So again, I go back to my first question. Would people still be mad about Tali if they had just snapped a photo themselves during a lunch break or something and did the same thing they did to the stock photo? Basically spending the exact same amount of time and effort on it?

Because if they wouldn't be, then the complaints aren't about how she looks, and it's not about how much time or effort they spent...so what would be the issue?

I don't think they are upset that they used a STOCK photo, I think they are upset that Tali's face wasn't created entirely from scratch, or to say that a photo and photoshop was used at all. What I do not understand is why they are upset by that fact.

 

[distortedreality]

We understand that you don't like Mass Effect 3. The things you say are deliberately said in such a way that anyone that liked the game is pissed off and then when they proceed to reply back you call them a fanboy. We get that you don't like the game and you are entitled to your opinion but can you please just leave people who liked the game and wish to discuss it alone. Why don't you go find a topic or make a topic about a game that you like and leave the rest of us alone. Please and thank you

Dude, give it a rest.

We know you don't like Bioware, we know you don't like ME3, and that's fine.

But we don't need you to tell us in every single post you make

Are you guys seriously jocking me right now?

In that post I did not attack Mass Effect 3. I didn't even attack freaking Bioware. Why are you guys jumping down my throat? I just said what everyone else with saying. Why do you guys keep looking for excuses to paint me as some sort of anti-bioware attack drone.


I know you guys are better than that. When you act like this, you guys come off as..well.you-know-what-boys.

In all fairness, if you commented on non-Mass Effect topics more frequently this might not be an issue, but a quick check of your recent posts and it's about 95% ME related stuff. I barely touch the gaming discussion sections, and already I've seen more of you in these threads than was particularly necessary for me to understand your stances. When a guy talks almost exclusively about Bioware and Mass Effect, you can be excused for thinking he may have an axe to grind.

Thats not fair. Mass effect 3 has been a hot topic in the gaming section. If I'm not going to post in the me3 threads, I'm pretty much not posting in the gaming section.

I don't think anyone would mind if you took that option ;P

 

[Vegosiux]

What I don't understand is "Bob, this is the painting I wanted, but you didn't do all the work, so I'm not going to take it."

But it's not the painting I wanted. The fact that he did not do all the work makes the painting not what I wanted.

Let me put it this way. If I commission Bob Ross to make a painting, I request the following of him:

1) Whatever I decided I want painted
2) That it's him who actually paints it.

If I commission a painting, I pay not only for the end result, but also for painting. As in, the act of painting itself.

I mean, are you going to pay a plumber for fixing a leak if you pretty much fixed it yourself, then he comes and all he does is tighten one screw? Of course you're not, because he actually didn't do much of the fixing.

 

[Strain42]

Ok, this is the last thing I'm gonna say in this thread because 1. I don't really care about Tali, or even ME3 2. I'm trying to cut back on gratuitous arguments I have no investments in and 3. ...Ok, there's really only 2, but it's the rule of 3.

I'll just let you guys hash it out. Try not to stay up too late.

 

[Elamdri]

What I don't understand is "Bob, this is the painting I wanted, but you didn't do all the work, so I'm not going to take it."

But it's not the painting I wanted. The fact that he did not do all the work makes the painting not what I wanted.

Let me put it this way. If I commission Bob Ross to make a painting, I request the following of him:

1) Whatever I decided I want painted
2) That it's him who actually paints it.

If I commission a painting, I pay not only for the end result, but also for painting. As in, the act of painting itself.

I mean, are you going to pay a plumber for fixing a leak if you pretty much fixed it yourself, then he comes and all he does is tighten one screw? Of course you're not, because he actually didn't do much of the fixing.

I think only the final product matters, how it was created is irrelevant. But You've at least articulated your point in a way that I can follow your line of reasoning. I disagree with it, but I at least "get it."

I also think that in the scenario you described you should pay the plumber. If you call out a computer tech to your house to fix your computer and he fixes it by plugging it in, should he not get paid as well?

 

[Romblen]

Hudson has an amazing talent for writing 500 words that say absolutely nothing.

 

[Strain42]

What I don't understand is "Bob, this is the painting I wanted, but you didn't do all the work, so I'm not going to take it."

But it's not the painting I wanted. The fact that he did not do all the work makes the painting not what I wanted.

Let me put it this way. If I commission Bob Ross to make a painting, I request the following of him:

1) Whatever I decided I want painted
2) That it's him who actually paints it.

If I commission a painting, I pay not only for the end result, but also for painting. As in, the act of painting itself.

I mean, are you going to pay a plumber for fixing a leak if you pretty much fixed it yourself, then he comes and all he does is tighten one screw? Of course you're not, because he actually didn't do much of the fixing.

I think only the final product matters, how it was created is irrelevant. But You've at least articulated your point in a way that I can follow your line of reasoning. I disagree with it, but I at least "get it."

I also think that in the scenario you described you should pay the plumber. If you call out a computer tech to your house to fix your computer and he fixes it by plugging it in, should he not get paid as well?

I know I said I was leaving but...ugh, I actually had something like that happen once.

My TV wasn't working, and I tried calling customer support. They asked me "Is your TV plugged in?" and like most people I rolled my eyes and was prepared to get sarcastic with them...but it turns out the TV WAS indeed unplugged. We had a rat in the house, our guess was he did it.

I felt stupid, but thankfully it didn't cost me anything lol

 

[Elamdri]

What I don't understand is "Bob, this is the painting I wanted, but you didn't do all the work, so I'm not going to take it."

But it's not the painting I wanted. The fact that he did not do all the work makes the painting not what I wanted.

Let me put it this way. If I commission Bob Ross to make a painting, I request the following of him:

1) Whatever I decided I want painted
2) That it's him who actually paints it.

If I commission a painting, I pay not only for the end result, but also for painting. As in, the act of painting itself.

I mean, are you going to pay a plumber for fixing a leak if you pretty much fixed it yourself, then he comes and all he does is tighten one screw? Of course you're not, because he actually didn't do much of the fixing.

I think only the final product matters, how it was created is irrelevant. But You've at least articulated your point in a way that I can follow your line of reasoning. I disagree with it, but I at least "get it."

I also think that in the scenario you described you should pay the plumber. If you call out a computer tech to your house to fix your computer and he fixes it by plugging it in, should he not get paid as well?

I know I said I was leaving but...ugh, I actually had something like that happen once.

My TV wasn't working, and I tried calling customer support. They asked me "Is your TV plugged in?" and like most people I rolled my eyes and was prepared to get sarcastic with them...but it turns out the TV WAS indeed unplugged. We had a rat in the house, our guess was he did it.

I felt stupid, but thankfully it didn't cost me anything lol

Happens to everyone man, me included. But I think it's your fault if you call out the guy and that's the problem.

 

[Mikeyfell]

So at this point nothing can redeem my faith in Bioware.
If they do release some sort of alternate ending retcon DLC that might rekindle my love of the Mass Effect series but other than that I'm done.

I mean they are going to go out of business when Old Republic inevitable gets curb-stomped by WOW. So I'm kind of glad I hate them now.

 

[electric method]

Sadly BioWare has been in PR/Damage Mitigation mode on and off since DA2 and pretty much all of this year already. It's just a shame to see a once talented developer reduced to this. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if BioWare rode the "we meant to do this" ship down in flames. Just as it wouldn't suprise me in the slightest, if later this year, EA released a press statement saying they were looking to sell off BioWare or that they had cut ties with BioWare due to all the bad PR and controversy that has surrounded them of late.

 

[DoctorSun]

I honestly hope that this open-armed attempt of redemption doesn't include an overpriced, lackluster knife in the back.

 

[lacktheknack]

We understand that you don't like Mass Effect 3. The things you say are deliberately said in such a way that anyone that liked the game is pissed off and then when they proceed to reply back you call them a fanboy. We get that you don't like the game and you are entitled to your opinion but can you please just leave people who liked the game and wish to discuss it alone. Why don't you go find a topic or make a topic about a game that you like and leave the rest of us alone. Please and thank you

Dude, give it a rest.

We know you don't like Bioware, we know you don't like ME3, and that's fine.

But we don't need you to tell us in every single post you make

Are you guys seriously jocking me right now?

In that post I did not attack Mass Effect 3. I didn't even attack freaking Bioware. Why are you guys jumping down my throat? I just said what everyone else with saying. Why do you guys keep looking for excuses to paint me as some sort of anti-bioware attack drone.


I know you guys are better than that. When you act like this, you guys come off as..well.you-know-what-boys.

Because the tone you've had, the choice of words you've picked and your selection of topic for EVERY SINGLE POST WE'VE EVER SEEN YOU MAKE sets a precedent that feeds into every post you will EVER make.

It's called "consistency". And you're not changing anything, your first post in this topic was still as snarky as hell and displayed pure distilled cynicism. If you really care how people react to you, then start taking responsibility for how you come across.

 

[Savagezion]

Worth reading...long posts from a PR guy on the forums about how Bioware is handling damage control right now, updated today:

Spoiler: Post One

I don't think Bioware is out of touch with their customers though I agree with an earlier poster that right now they are assessing their options. Nor do I think that everyone speaking up for them at the moment is a "yes man" or shill. That said:

I don't for a moment think there are any other endings, this was a hallucination, etc. Bioware/EA is letting these speculations go on for two reasons. First, they are letting people vent. Secondly, they are weighing options.

Years ago, I worked for a PR damage control team and everything right now is going by the book. First, re-affirm and ignore (also known as doubling down), then try and define the detractors in the mainstream with things like "this is all a big mistunderstand", etc. while remaining civil in the hopes the detractors go rabid. Meanwhile go dark and use countermeasures through third part sources to prop up your position and brand the outcry as driven by hacks, haters or a minority trying to wear out the detractors on these outlets or "shock troops" while protecting the corporate core. Next, offer something distracting (notice SWTOR is free this upcoming weekend) known as the "faux olive branch"/ask the angry people to explain their concerns (without agreeing to commit to a compromise), buy more add time (definitely going on right now), and hope it dies down. If the pressure is still on, determine the economic viability of 1) ignoring the outcry and banking on the fickle nature of consumers to get over it or 2) determining if we can make money off of fixing it.

If it is any consolation, the decision whether or not there is a fix DLC, etc, won't be made by the writers so illusions to things they wanted to convey don't matter much atm (to wit: the leads comments yesterday). I suspect he's been called in and politely told by the PR guys to not do that again. This is now a corporate problem, not an artistic struggle with fans. Somewhere in the EA bunker, attorneys, PR guys, writers and brass are sharing numbers b/c in the end this will come down to hard currency.

As one who despises the endings, I'm hoping the suits tell the visionaries that the customers are loud enough and numerous enough to swollow their pride and get them out of this storm. For those that love them, I readily accept your position and respectfully disagree.

Spoiler: Post Two

A couple follow-up thoughts for those wondering what is likely going on with the other side of the mirror in the last couple days:

First, Operation Goliath, the free Star Wars online weekend, and the recent noncommittal overtures to listen arefaux olive branches. Sorry. Customers intrinsically want to believe companies they patronize listen and when they stop believing that, the company has to say they are listening and do anything to get the detractors off-message. There are a dozen names for this, but the most memorable was "The Shell Game."

You will know that there?s a genuine need for dialogue in the corporate bunker when the message turns from ?we?re listening? to ?we acknowledge we may have a disconnect with our consumers and are willing to discuss a meaningful solution to the problem.? It signals an end to non-committed deflection and opening genuine talks to solve the problem (it?s knows as ?Exposing Your Throat? btw). At present, you?ll notice Bioware/EA has only said they will ?explain? the endings. That?s not a give, that?s a delay tactic.

But here?s the part that amazes me as an old PR guy and is totally new. The disenfranchised base here is changing the old methodology. It?s akin to comparing old-style bunker PR defenses to new blitzkrieg-style consumers. To date, the ?bunker strategy? was always used because it was virtually foolproof. However, social media and the 24 hour news cycle have simply changed everything. Twenty years ago, you could not mass 30,000 protesters into a networked base without some luck, money, a GREAT cause and (most importantly) time. By the time you did get organized, folks were either burned out or lost interest. Groups like Take Back have altered the landscape and suddenly the contest is taken from the old paradigm to a crazy new (and wonderful IMO) place. Preorder sales took away customers biggest weapon in the past (i.e. don?t buy the product). Now customers who feel they have received poor value have been potentially re-empowered by the internet. Bioware/EA is feeling the full brunt of this thing while passion is hottest. They are deploying countermeasures faster than the old strategies ever would have ever suggested. To some degree, they are being outmaneuvered atm. But now it depends on how long the protest/outcry holds up.

Two more quick points and I?ll close. First, the Child?s Play movement was brilliant. Notice over the past few days how some of the most visceral detractors to the outcry have had to shift their vitriol from ?you?re spoiled selfish haters? to ?sure you gave to charity, but you are spoiled selfish haters.? Nobody is drinking that Kool-Aid. Better yet, some outlets are now saying ?maybe the game has problem but its still art? from the precedent message ?best game ever.? That won?t fly with the mainstream. If its one thing they know is that when ?art? hits the marketplace, it is a commodity, nothing more. You?ve changed the countermeasures from "unbiased" critics of the movement into drum beaters simply trying to get you angry. EA?s PR guys probably envy you (grudgingly) atm.

Second, don?t buy the only X people voted in the poll out of 1 billion customers, so they don?t care. That?s bunk. Are there "drum beaters" on both sides of this issue that just want to see controversy, sure. But if I was sitting in an office looking at that Bioware poll, I?d be reaching for a cigarette.

Finally remember, they have much more data at their disposal. They know how sales are going, how much time people are playing that are synced into Origin, etc. They will watch those numbers this weekend. If sales slow, watch for price cutting within 10 days (just over the two week US release date). It will mean that retailers are getting nervous and will slow new unit orders. As I?ve said before, this will come down to hard currency. If the protests start having an effect on that front, the response will come.

Nice quotes. It's really interesting. I am familiar with sales but not with marketing/PR tactics. Some tactics are similar but not exactly the same due to different scales in clientele, obviously. I found those interesting though. Thanks.

OT:Anyone with common sense should see easily in this interview that all this announcement is, is a tummy rub to the dissatisfied customers and saying they will be selling DLC to offer the closure people expected from this title. (Probably in multiple pieces.) Which most people expected from the "Buy our DLC" message at the end. Really, this announcement stated nothing everyone didn't already know. Anyone who found some type of enlightenment from this either wasn't up to speed in the first place, knows nothing of PR/marketing, or both.

 

[Scabadus]

Jeez what a load of damage-control bullshit. For all those words, I ony read two things in that whole speech:

1. "You guys are awsome! You're all great people and we love you!" This is just insulting, trying to make me think better of Bioware because, hey, they complimented me so I guess they're nice people after all.

I'm not that shallow.

I'm not that stupid.

2. "Hey guys, remember all those things you asked for and we did? Remember Garrus and Tali? Remember the quick scan? Arn't we great for listening to you so much?" Fuck off Casey. I'm not immature enough to say fuck off and die, but please do fuck off somewhere I'm not exposed to your work or your incredibly patronising and insuting expainations again. You know what, fuck off all of Bioware and EA, because I'm sure as hell that Hudsen himself wrote none of that. Even if it was his brain thinking it up and his fingers typing it, it wasn't really from him, not from his heart. It was always going to go through the filter of the PR department and that render the entire thing invalid. Post an apology on your twitter account as you leave Bioware, then I'll believe you mean it (wow, I finally get why falling on your sword is the honourable way to go. I've honestly never really 'got' that before.)

Look. If you, if Hudsen, if anyone, writes an ending to something that's so bad, so terrible, so utterly putrid that you then have to explain that ending, then unless that explination includes "uh guys? Remember that conversation with such-and-such? Well look at how it changes EVERYTHHING when combined with side mission X!" (and even that just shift it from being terrible for one reason to being terrible for another reason) then you probably shouldn't be writing stuff in the first place. On the other hand, thankfully, you (he) probaby won't be writing anything again, at least anything that gets produced.

 

[Scabadus]

Double post - quoted myself instead of editing. I'm so smart.

 

[Savagezion]

So again, I go back to my first question. Would people still be mad about Tali if they had just snapped a photo themselves during a lunch break or something and did the same thing they did to the stock photo? Basically spending the exact same amount of time and effort on it?

Because if they wouldn't be, then the complaints aren't about how she looks, and it's not about how much time or effort they spent...so what would be the issue?

Note: I am NOT a Tali fan.

I find Tali's reveal cheap all around. I don't care about a stock photo. I care about a crap Photoshop job. Her hands are all wrong based on the character model. In that picture, the index and ring finger are spaced perfectly, but they couldn't be bothered with a detail like that. In visual storytelling details like that are important. I don't see how that was overlooked unless it was indeed a rush job with little thought or, more importantly, care going into it. That hand just looks horrible every time I see it.

Again, I am not a Tali fan. I barely even use her or interact with her at all. But that hand...

Also, a picture, not all that epic a reveal. Would have had much more impact as a model.

Spoiler: SPOILER ALERT! You want to know the kick in balls here? SPOILER ALERT!

She takes off her mask and faces Shepard before she kills herself and the camera stays behind her. That could have been an awesome scene for the reveal but nope, it was kept low budget. There was no reason dialogue could not have been included for an actual scene.