s0denone said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
s0denone said:
Organic foods are more expensive.
Eating meat instead of organic food is cheaper.
Eating meat is cheaper than not eating meat.
How is that for logic? Honestly I don't care much for the discussion, but from where I'm sitting the vegans just look like people with too much money and time on their hands.
http://lifehacker.com/5271178/cook-for-good-plans-meals-for-less-than-two-dollars
I'm sorry, how is this relevant? I could eat cereal for breakfast, lunch and dinner and it would be dirt-cheap. That doesn't make it a good idea, nor something I would do.
Camembert said:
s0denone said:
Organic foods are more expensive.
Not eating organic foods is cheaper than eating meat.
Eating meat is cheaper than not eating meat.
How is that for logic? Honestly I don't care much for the discussion, but from where I'm sitting the vegans just look like people with too much money and time on their hands.
Too much money? Because meat is so much cheaper than vegetarian food : | We aren't talking about organic food here, genius.
It's
called empathy. Being able to put yourself in someone or something else's shoes, and to think, 'Hm, how would I feel...? Not good? OK, I won't support that market anymore.' And sometimes enduring inconvenience for what you believe is a good thing, no? I would consider it a positive character trait, at any rate.
How is empathy relevant to the discussion? You are talking logic, yet bring in arguments based solely on emotion... And bingo! Those emotions may differ from person to person.
I should never have let myself be drawn into this, but I will continue as long as you do, although with a heavy heart. It will be rough, we may shed some tears, but ultimately we will come out stronger on the other side!
Still, having a healthy diet without including meat is impossible if you only have so much money to toss around. Believe you me.
I just assumed the "organic" thing, since we are talking vegan and not-vegan, and any true vegan would also only eat organic... Which is very expensive compared to other products.
EDIT: Also, no need for personal insults such as "We're not talking about that, genius" - there's no point. I'm being friendly to you, be friendly to me.
In terms of logic, the best argument I've seen for a vegetarian diet (strict vegan is...commendable, but either a little deranged, or as s0denone pointed out, dependent on a large amount of spending money) is that it's simply better use of resources. When people in parts of the world are starving due to malnutrition, it seems frivolous to spend time and money feeding up an animal in order to get around 25% of the nutrition you've given it. However, it's not that simple.
This is how it'd work in a simplistic communal world, but what we actually have to work with is a series of distinct capitalist economies, which affect each other indirectly rather than directly. So, by processing food through this cattle into a luxury object, you generate wealth and a living wage for everyone involved in the process, and thousands of people get jobs and livelihoods. It's unlikely that American companies (to take an accessible example from the developed world) would make a profit of any kind exporting corn to other countries, as they would definitely be undercut by local farmers (well, I'm assuming so. I'll concede this point of course if anyone knows of examples of this not happening). So the only way it can be an economically viable concern is to pump excess through cattle, generating profit for all involved. The problems with feeding cattle like this are detailed at length in a book I read once...I think it was Eric Schlosser's Fast Food Nation but I could be wrong. But that's a separate issue. So, produce from the West doesn't generally go to feed developing nations because it's not profitable. What you're mostly going to be buying as a casual vegetarian is food purchased from developing nations and jacked up in price by varying middlemen. This isn't particularly good for anyone - the areas surrounding the farm you're buying this food from (prices go up, albeit slightly), the environment (due to large amounts of travel), or the farmer (makes very little money compared to the Western companies selling his/her goods). The ways around this are to either drop out of the capitalist system and start some kind of commune/small farm of your own, which requires either money or a severe dose of hippyitis and dedication, or to pay extra money for locally sourced food to avoid competing for resources with the Third World. This option again requires a good income, which many people simply don't have. The point is, when vegetarian ideals are exposed to the real world, they often face a choice: dedicate a large chunk of your life, or money, to your ideals, and really bite the bullet, considering all ramifications and complexities arising from your actions, or buy into it as some kind of lifestyle choice.
The second best arguments are in Peter Singer's work, which I recommend to everyone, and are easily googlable, but you do have to accept his opening premises that sentience = moral worth. I think I'd add a certain degree of intelligence to that mix, and accept any Unfortunate Implications that came my way, given his take on meta-ethics - but then my own understanding of ethics is that it is a branch of aesthetics, so do what you want
you have an anonymous stranger's permission now.
Concluding: The situation is more morally complicated and less clearcut than vegetarians generally make it out to be, at many levels of the debate. "Logical" moral choices often end up being slightly fuzzy in the real world, and you may have to remold your entire ethical stance, and indeed worldview, just to justify your vegetarianism.
And if you do want to help starving people around the world, there are easier, more direct and definite ways than vegetarianism (seriously vegans, I ain't talking to you ;P - good on yer, yer latterday monks, but you're a little unwell). www.freerice.com is waiting for you RIGHT NOW for NO COST, for instance, and conventional charities like Oxfam, Red Nose Day, Children in Need could really use your disposable income more than that organic produce farmer down the road. If you're just looking for a little boost, a portion of your money ALREADY goes to foreign countries, assuming you pay taxes - all the developed countries I can think of give a portion of their budget to foreign aid. Good job you! Now there's no need to make yourself all pale and passive-aggressive! (Joke. I like vegetarians, and plan to be one some day).
