"It's Not Like I Reich You Or Anything"

[EnigmaticSevens]

I always get a sort of chuckle out of the reaction of certain folk over the Civil War, especially those so quick to beat the 'state's rights' drum as a point of 'Southern Pride,' when the stigma of the mass psychosocial hypocrisy of an aristocratic, slave owning society invalidates all that precious hubbub over a state's right to goddamn anything. "Fuck yeah! State's rights! Smaller more democratic communities, where everyone's voice can be heard! So long as that person is a white, land-owning male of moderate to high annual income! We gotta make sure them damn' yanks don't infringe upon our rights to own them queer brown folk like chattel, rape their women whensoever we please (can it wife, a man's got needs!), all the while keeping all those damn noisy poor whites entrenched in a system of agrarian serfdom so deep they can't see the sun! We'll just keep on distracting them with this lovely notion of Herrenvolk racism! (Hey, you might be shit, but at least you're not as shit as brown people!)

Anyone who honestly defends the rights of such a society, regardless of their current political views, is about as deluded as the poor fool who views the North as some moral crusader out to defend the rights of man. (What's that you say?! We're in the midst of a bloodfeud between the burgeoning industrial elite of the North and the agrarian aristocracy of the South and our populace trapped in a system of industrial serfdom wont fight!? Yet you say we might play this card to both assume the moral high ground and deal an economic death blow to the south as well? Hmmm... oh I don't know, let me sit on my ass for a few years and putter about it, just in case our wayward southern brothers decide to rejoin the fold peacefully. Then we can get back to the all important business of breaking treaties with red people, defrauding them, killing them, and annexing their land! Yay Americuh!)

I would not mind playing a light novel that balls to the wall honest about itself even if everything else about it was over the top and backed to brim with bishies.

And then I'd like a sequel concerning the economic aftermath of the Spanish American War in Cuba, and the 'stabilizing' of the Philippines.

And no, while self-flagellation is not required (though by all means, if that's your thing, go at it with gusto) this notion of self-identity as defined by nation or region needs to die in a fire.

 

[Idsertian]

Next up, My Little Third Reich, where the Nazi 6 discover that friendship and genocide go hand in hand.

Only on The Hub!

OT: I had no idea this was a thing. *reads linked article in fluff* Yep, this is definitely a thing. Seriously Thailand, buck up and fix your education program, dammit.

Mind you, yes, the Nazi's were responsible for the slaughter of millions, but you can't say they didn't have a sense of style.

 

[Darth_Payn]

cut to save space

I'm pretty sure winter hit and then the Khan died before they could prepare an invasion army. I could be wrong, but I think the new Khan (I don't remember the year) either wasn't as expansive or was focused on China.

Well, they did care, they had to side with America's enemies, and World War I showed that it was only a matter of time until America came to Britain's aid. Anyway, Germany and Japan were a good match; Japan did some really messed up stuff to PoW's, and even that's not much compared to what they did to the Chinese. Quite surprised that Imperial Japan doesn't get as much flak as the Nazis. I guess in today's politically correct world you can't demonize a group of Asians even when they demonized other groups of Asians.

I don't think Japan's Imperial era is demonized in Japan (which it should; hell, most of Germany hates Nazism and what THAT did to their country), but it sure is in every other country in Asia that Japan invaded. I remember there was a controversy about it when the first Medal of Honor game set in the Pacific Theater was made.

 

[Darmani]

I can kinda see it though...

It's about what something comes to represent - "Nazi" as a word does stand connected to some hideous atrocities, but it's also attached to some positive traits.

I think the big problem is both its overvillification and lack of context. Btongue pointed out something valid.
Its easy to romanticize victimization. What makes normal everyday people villains! America was hella racist then, we camped the nisei, our gay rights are still atrocious. Nazis were evil but they were duly elected evil of a modern state buoyed by all the form, procedures, and stylings of life right next door. They didn't pop out of thin air or rise from the swamps by dark magic. Their cruelty was immense and horrifying.. but HUMAN. Startling so.
Its why I like Inglorious Bastards which cockslaps you about nazi's becoming guiltless bullet sponges to righteously slay whose mere opposition makes you a saint.
No IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. And if you fuck up you can be doing the same as your enemy.
Nazi is portmanteau of National Socialism and included a number of top of the line social theories and conducts and took power a number of ways, only SOME by means of the sword.

That's what should scare us about them. They were us if we fuck up

 

[Bombiz]

Next up, My Little Third Reich, where the Nazi 6 discover that friendship and genocide go hand in hand.

In the Rainbow Factory....

where no one gets out alive...

 

[Agayek]

If slavery had not existed then what issue would they have seceded over?

They wouldn't have. The Civil War arose specifically because of slavery.

That said, for most States, it wasn't an ideological desire/need to keep slavery that drove the decision. It was economical. The vast majority of Southern States literally could not survive without assistance if slavery was abolished. Their economy was built upon the cotton trade, which was in turn built upon the free labor provided by the slaves. The majority of Southerners who fought were fighting primarily so that they and their families didn't starve in a financial collapse almost on par with the Great Depression.

You can see how some of it played out if you do some research on the Reconstruction [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Era]. It's not a perfect model for what would have happened without the Civil War (Reconstruction was actually significantly worse economically), but it's a decent baseline, and the social and political turmoil would have been about the same.

 

[draigodragon]

... "Facepalm"

all i needed to see was that picture in the 3rd frame to know what the 4th frame was going to say XD

 

[Aurion]

But then again, Americans have been re-enacting the Civil War since about two weeks after the last shots were fired, so who am I to judge?

Hell, many Americans glorify the side that fought for the right to own black people and hang their flag outside their houses.

Rarely for that reason, it does bear pointing out in a mild tone of voice before the inevitable argument really gets a head of steam going.

It's a cultural scab that we collectively keep picking at and making it bleed (I'm as guilty of this of anyone, as a Civil War buff myself).

If slavery had not existed then what issue would they have seceded over?

They wouldn't have. The Civil War arose specifically because of slavery.

That said, for most States, it wasn't an ideological desire/need to keep slavery that drove the decision. It was economical. The vast majority of Southern States literally could not survive without assistance if slavery was abolished. Their economy was built upon the cotton trade, which was in turn built upon the free labor provided by the slaves. The majority of Southerners who fought were fighting primarily so that they and their families didn't starve in a financial collapse almost on par with the Great Depression.

Truth. The nullification crisis of the early 1830s was explicitly caused by economic concerns as well. Economics is jet fuel for political conflicts. It's more complicated than the industry-farming dichotomy that's so common in popular history of course, but that's the way popular history goes.

The first part's not entirely true- Someone somewhere was going to try to leave the Union as a solution to a political crisis at some point along the line (maybe even about the issues re: state/federal legislation). It just wouldn't necessarily be the South, if we remove slavery as an impetus. It's fertile ground for alt-history if nothing else- Texas, California, New England, Deseret, etc...

 

[Darth_Payn]

It's really sad when we forget our history and glorify the wrong parts or romanticize out the faults. We shouldn't trivialize the suffering of others, even for comedy. I'm not saying we have to agonize over it, but put in perspective and maintain a modicum of respect, especially if the history is fresh enough to contain survivors.

As for Japan, they have such a skewed perspective on modern history and penchant for not admitting mistakes, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a fascination with all the wrong parts of WWII. Just ask a Korean person about Japan's collective amnesia about WWII or Iran's (and much of the Arab world as well) denial the Holocaust. We're not arguing stuff from a preliterate age here... some people who experienced it are still alive (though sadly less every year)!

Now THAT is just fucked up. Do people in those countries actively praise the Nazis because of Israel and its stubborn refusal to stop existing? Jaysus, and people think I'm crazy for my theory about Nazi influence on Islamic terrorists.

 

[RoonMian]

And no, while self-flagellation is not required (though by all means, if that's your thing, go at it with gusto) this notion of self-identity as defined by nation or region needs to die in a fire.

?The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.?

-Arthur Schopenhauer

On Topic:

As a German this disturbs me a lot.

 

[Gigano]

In the future?!

Spoiler: Japanese game CG (click to view)

Ironically from a game about gays, aimed at women. Not sure the Nazi's would approve.​

The future is now!

 

[megaflash]

...this notion of self-identity as defined by nation or region needs to die in a fire.

Why is that? Because they perpetuate standards you don't agree with or because they are vocal about the things that they care about?

Nations are made of people, and like people, they have good and bad things about them. No person is perfect, even more so with a nation. You wouldn't put a person down because they are proud of being themselves. Why would you do that to someone proud of where they live?

 

[otakon17]

Future Erin is the most Kawaii thing I have ever seen.
Won't be long now until Hitler is referred to as "Tragically Misunderstood"

There are some what if theories about if he had been able to get into art school like he wanted, maybe he never would have turned out to be such an A-hole.

But if wishes, and "what if"s could be made so, we would all be as happy as this Erin right now.

Spoiler: Super Kawaii Erin!

[http://s105.photobucket.com/user/ihatephotob1/media/438755_zpsf4d6e605.gif.html]

Lol, Robo-Erin, also yeah. Romanticizing, it happens. But I would like to note, that Kawaii Erin is CLEARLY ripped from the ending of Dragon Half

But it's still adorable!

 

[otakon17]

I'm pretty sure the very first dating sym I have ever played in my entire life was pretty much set in a Nazi prisoner camp even though it wasn't set in a Nazi prisoner camp.

I'm talking about "Enzai":

Spoiler

So I don't think we need the distant future. Nevermind tho, because that cyborgerin is cute.

And on a side note... the Romans were pederasts? Weren't they the Greek - and wasn't it consensual?

The HELL is wrong with his shoulder? It's down WAY too far for it just to be perspective, God he looks deformed...

 

[Loop Stricken]

There's already a strange idolization of the Nazi aesthetic

Those black and red uniforms are cool, though. And little skulls everywhere, too!

 

[EnigmaticSevens]

...this notion of self-identity as defined by nation or region needs to die in a fire.

Why is that? Because they perpetuate standards you don't agree with or because they are vocal about the things that they care about?

Nations are made of people, and like people, they have good and bad things about them. No person is perfect, even more so with a nation. You wouldn't put a person down because they are proud of being themselves. Why would you do that to someone proud of where they live?

I will state this once, and only once at the risk of derailing this thread, if you wish for further discussion, you can send me a PM, or start up a new topic else where. Nationalism is a disease, not a virtue. Let a person take pride in himself, to an extent this is healthy. The self is composed of many sets of behaviors and beliefs that a person might find worthwhile or worthy of admiration and propagation, behaviors and beliefs quantified by actions and subject to accurate judgement by the observer. A 'nation' is no such thing, and any attributes ascribed to any given nation or government are AT BEST generally accepted cultural sterotypes and AT WORST examples of manipulative propaganda used to create divisions where none should exist for the benefit of an empowered minority. There is no prototypical American, Canadian, German, Frenchmen, Englishman, Ghanaian, Puertoriqueno or Brasilero, only perpetuated myth so fallacious it makes even the most obscure and esoteric cult seem rational. Nations are thin veils of civility used to curb the most wantonly destructive impulses of the species (and in this they are only partially successful), to grant them greater weight than this is senseless idolatry. People are more than the sum of their cultural proclivities, vastly more, and the sooner that notion becomes widely accepted, the more difficult it becomes to commit atrocity. It's easier to bomb Germans, Japaneses, Syrians, Israelis, Iraqis, Iranians, or Americans into oblivion and back when they are cordoned off under that nice, easy to recognize, easy to hate label. It is much more difficult, when each city block is populated by the faces of one's loved ones, individuals known and cared for their myriad qualities, some good, some bad. National and Regional pride is farcical and too often used as an excuse to disparage another person or group for equally farcical reasons. We are humans, it is time we owned up to it! Love and hate one another for reasons we can identify and verify with our own senses!

To put this more in line with the subject of this thread: It is easy to whitewash the sins of these groups because their names loose impact, loose context and weight. But would it be so easy to caricature and sanitize them if they were identified merely as people doing horrible things? It is easier and easier to make a 'Kawaii' Nazi, but would it rest as easily to play a sim where you tried to win the affections of the 'Kawaii' gas chamber operator by stripping more corpses than your love rival? Fuck no.

Nationalism is a rot, you do not coddle a rot, you excise it and cauterize the wound. The pain is worth it, especially if it leads to a moment of self reflection.

 

[Ishigami]

You know what is weird too? - That Hitler and the Nazis are the biggest monsters of mankind when it comes to this even though Mao Zedong or Stalin and the Communists killed way more people?

 

[bdeamon]

Suchong is eternal!