"It's Not My Job to Do Your Research for You"

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The Bucket

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May 4, 2010
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albino boo said:
inmunitas said:
Everyone on the Internet is anonymous and can easily lie about who they are, anyone coming from a STEM background would be aware of this.

Refusing to provide evidence to claims is just intellectually dishonest. ;)
CrystalShadow said:
This is the internet not an academic paper. If you you want an academic paper then use google on the subject and read one. The vast majority of population of the world have better things to do with their time than turn a 100 word post on the internet into an academic paper. Take this statement
It called an educated guess. The number of people that do how to know about the first one is the region of 500,000 worldwide. Most of those are wearing, or have worn, military officers uniform and knowing the answer will bring questions about how they know which they don't want answer.
You will not find sources on the internet that will verify those statements. Its a guess based on my personal knowledge, of how long those kind of systems have been in use and how many people at one time would need to know that and how many places these kind of systems are in use. Not one of those thing are backed by sources on the internet because those are not the kind of information that gets into the public domain. If you want to try and verify that those facts be my guest but I'm not going to bother because it doesn't matter
You keep on stating that internet discussions don't matter, that you dont care whether the other person believes it or not, that you have have better things to with your time. That's totally fine, but if that's what you believe, then why even weigh in on the topic in the first place?
 

Antari

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Nov 4, 2009
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Zhukov said:
If you're demanding official peer-reviewed evidence in an internet argument then you're clearly taking it a great deal more seriously than I'm prepared to.
I'm with this angle. If the information is that important to you. Educate yourself and quit wasting other people's time. And just realize that this vital earth shattering information, may only be earth shattering to you. Besides which, anyone on the internet demanding anything from me will get the same result. Nothing.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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Dec 11, 2009
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tippy2k2 said:
3/3 with the "Burden of proof is on the claim maker" group.

If they're so "exhausted" with internet arguing, either don't start the argument or just bow out gracefully. I've done that plenty of times where I just plain get sick of arguing and I'll just say it. 90% of people I've said that to are cool with it and the 10% that are not cool with it are so entrenched in their own opinion being right that you're wasting your time debating them.
Same. Some people rush into arguments, all emotionally charged and whatnot before thinking up a good line of debate. This leads to fallacies, pissing contests and general aggravation.

My personal rule of thumb is to never enter a discussion or debate if I don't feel that I have something meaningful to contribute. Even then, I always read over my own stuff to make sure that it's unassailable so that an actual discussion can happen and not nitpicking or a shouting bout.

With claims, well, it's on a case by case basis. Social media is absolutely terrible as a source and I am against citing it. Twitter is legendary for taking things out of context and facebook is built of self-congratulatonry wanking so people are more prone to being lazy in it, so they're just bad. Opinion pieces are also kind of hazy. Ideally, you'd want research, evaluation and events as sources, but if a source's credibility is being pulled into the argument, then either a) you haven't done your job in lining out your points correctly and convincingly or b) the other person is predisposed to fight you instead of talking with you, in which case, you either need to revise yourself or just bow out. One way or the other, someone fucked up, so that means a trip to the Fallacy Palace with a slight possibility of a shitstorm.
 

JimB

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albino boo said:
Alright, you two, what's the best way to take navigation data from multiple instruments to get the best fix over time and not be distorted by rogue readings? I know because I have been paid large amounts to money to know.

How do you write software that's going to run aircraft flight computers? Again I know because I have been paid a large amount of money to know. It's probable that some people here has flown on aircraft that running code that I have contributed to.
I do not know the answers to those questions. The thing is, I don't believe that you do either, because the amount of time and effort you have spent refusing to answer the questions you claim to know the answers to is so significant compared to amount of time and effort it would take to just answer. Quite frankly, your unproven assertions come off like boasting to me, like this guy's attempts [http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bleys/logs/creepyguest.txt] to convince internet strangers he's a martial arts expert who isn't allowed to perform kata unless he's on a secret wetworks mission. It would be so easy to prove your claims, yet you refuse because of some ostensible moral outrage at being asked, and that reads like a dodge to me.

albino boo said:
You have to understand that other people know things because it what they get paid to do and on particular topics your opinion is not worth the same as someone else's opinion. Not everybody in the world has the same knowledge base and other people know more than you.
Yes, I do have to understand that. What I don't have to do is believe you're that guy, and I know you said in the post you got a warning about that you don't care what we think, but the thing is, I don't believe that, either. You are spending way, way too much time and effort arguing with us for someone who genuinely doesn't care.
 

PainInTheAssInternet

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Dec 30, 2011
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I used to type out long-winded and cited arguments. That just got me aggravated, ignored and banned from YouTube due to spamming links. Now I just post the link instead, so I guess I have the opposite issue where I just shove links forwards (edited with spaces so it doesn't show as a link) without actually engaging anybody. I did use this line of thinking because while a lot of my knowledge on the subject came from books, there were many articles available on the internet written by verified experts who worked with the materials first-hand. These were all easy to find, but the real problem was no one cared about what I had to say because I was contradicting their views.

Bottom line, arguing on the internet is largely fruitless because it relies upon genuine engagement. That's difficult to come by on a medium where apathy and hostility are celebrated. If people actually gave a damn, they would be looking it up themselves rather than demanding I prove something. I actually go through the trouble of looking up the opposing view's data out of habit.
 

Loonyyy

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albino boo said:
You greatly mistake that I care what you believe. The problem that you have ,is that you think what you believe is anyway important to me. You could go through the posts that I have made on these forums over a large number of years and to find that I have made number of posts of navigation and safety critical software and not one of them contains sources. No one questioned them.
You want to know why? Because no-one cared. Like your statement about how others feel that they are the most important person in their world, you are of almost no account to them. That's why they haven't questioned it. Because they don't care. As their opinion is unimportant to you, so is yours to them.

You don't go the Dr or a lawyer ask them for sources.
Unless you're capable of critical thinking. Doctors and lawyers say stupid things all the time. If you're talking about a General Practitioner, it's likely that they only have a basic level of knowledge of any specific problem, and they will often consult other sources when faced with something outside of their typical experience, or refer you to a specialist. A part of your doctor's job is to consult with you, as the patient, and ensure that you are informed about their decisions, what condition you may be experiencing, what the treatment options are, and what the side effects of those options are. That's their responsibility, and one that most of them are very capable of carrying out. If you aren't asking for that, or listening when they tell you that, then that's on you. They don't have to fill you in on the entirety of medical practice, and pharmacology, but they should be able to explain what the side effects listed for a medication are. And yeah, that has a source.
You don't attend a lecture by Stephen Hawkins and ask him for sources.
No, but you do get the most prominent physicist in the world's name correct. I mean, come on. We're meant to take you on your word of expertise (Which you refuse to demonstrate in any way shape or form, because you're the expert, like Hawking, who you really can't even touch in levels of expertise), and you can't even get his name right.

And yes, you do ask him for sources. Better yet, he'll provide them. In his published works, he makes references. Many of them. Not just in academic literature (Which involves a ridiculous amount of citation, as a supposed expert should know), but in his books too. I haven't watched any of his lectures, but I would doubt that they have no sources, or references in them. When speaking on developing fields, it is almost impossible not to reference current work and research. The idea that Hawking doesn't use sources is utterly preposterous, and the use of it to bolster your own credibility is frankly ludicrous. The Higgs is God! I didn't support it with evidence? Who gives a fuck, you just have to accept that you don't know and I do, like Stephen Hawking!

While there is an expected level of knowledge to be able to parse certain literature or content, asking questions and for clarification, or where to see more, is standard practice in lectures, and any one engaged in lecturing who knows shit about their content should be able to satisfy most of those.
There are many things you just have accept that you don't know and someone else does.
There really aren't. You may not need to know it, and thus you don't need to learn it, but that doesn't excuse those who would claim to know something from being able to demonstrate it. As someone who purportedly works in navigation and software, you should be able to explain your work, otherwise god knows how you provide documentation. Even if that explanation is over someone's head because it presupposes a higher level of education, it at least demonstrates that you know what you're talking about, and aren't fabricating your story. The fact that you can't even provide an explanation of that kind doesn't really support your claim. Hence why very few people are inclined to believe you, Mr Beau.
 

MonsterCrit

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DoPo said:
Pluvia said:
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Pretty simple.
Yep, pretty much this. I don't really have much else to add - if somebody makes a claim, they should be able to back it up. Expecting the other party to do all the research is both lazy and not doesn't speak well for the debate.
MNot exactly... What if the argument was:

"Back to the FUture is a Racist movie"

It's one of those scenarios where two people can look at the same data set and come to differing conclusions. LIke the old observation... Racists don't think racist jokes are racist. In which case the difference is in one party being unable to mentally observe the scenario from a different view point.

Also in the case of B, if discourse is the actual point of the discussion B would naturally be curious enough to actually do the research. Like say Key word A's statement into Google and see what comes up. In true debate th B and A would typically spend as much time researching the other's view point as they did researching their own.

When you say 'Can you prove it?'

you are very subtly insinuation that the other party is mistaken or dishonest. NO one reacts well under those situations. THe more academic and neutral way is ,. 'Do you have a citation?' which more implies. 'I'd like to see this for myself'.

There are certain scenarios where proof cannot be given.,

A can state. This is a picture of two people facing each other!

B can say. No it's a picture of a vase.

How can one supply proof of their stand point to the other? Seeing as the difference is due to difference of perception, not in material. The difference is interpretation, not the content. A or B can describe what they see till they're hoarse but the 0other party still may not see it. Worse if they have become emotionally entrenched in their view points. They may subconsciously or consciously refuse to see the other party's point of view since they feel it may be equivalent of admitting they were wrong. And the more emotionally entrenched people are the more they will willfully ignore anything that contradicts.


It's why you have people that still dispute evolution and others that believe the earth is only 6000 years old and some misguided fools beleive ELvis is Dead.
 

DoPo

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MonsterCrit said:
DoPo said:
Pluvia said:
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Pretty simple.
Yep, pretty much this. I don't really have much else to add - if somebody makes a claim, they should be able to back it up. Expecting the other party to do all the research is both lazy and not doesn't speak well for the debate.
MNot exactly... What if the argument was:

"Back to the FUture is a Racist movie"
Yes exactly. If that was the case, I'd ask the other party to explain why they think so. Responding with "Do your own research" doesn't help me.
 

MonsterCrit

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DoPo said:
MonsterCrit said:
DoPo said:
Pluvia said:
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Pretty simple.
Yep, pretty much this. I don't really have much else to add - if somebody makes a claim, they should be able to back it up. Expecting the other party to do all the research is both lazy and not doesn't speak well for the debate.
MNot exactly... What if the argument was:

"Back to the FUture is a Racist movie"


Yes exactly. If that was the case, I'd ask the other party to explain why they think so. Responding with "Do your own research" doesn't help me.
See my ammended post.
 

sanquin

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Jun 8, 2011
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For me, the burden of proof is always on the person that makes a statement different from what is scientifically accepted. Science is there to find the truth, or theories as close to the truth as possible at least. So if your statement is different than what hundreds of scientists accept as scientific truth, then you should provide evidence.

Funny thing is, every time I told this to someone in an argument, and they indeed came with 'evidence' it was always from either sources that could be misinterpreted, didn't go into enough detail to draw a proper conclusion, had too small a sample size, or were less-than-credible.

This is also why I never argue about subjects that are opinion based. Like what game is good or bad. At most I would point out demonstrably bad aspects of the game in that example. Because such arguments don't have a true right or wrong answer, in my opinion.
 

DoPo

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MonsterCrit said:
Also in the case of B, if discourse is the actual point of the discussion B would naturally be curious enough to actually do the research.
Yet, as you said, different viewpoints can be a problem. Indeed, what if there are two or three widely discussed options but party A picks only one - they should be able to provide any reason why did they pick that and not the others.

MonsterCrit said:
When you say 'Can you prove it?'

you are very subtly insinuation that the other party is mistaken or dishonest. NO one reacts well under those situations. THe more academic and neutral way is ,. 'Do you have a citation?' which more implies. 'I'd like to see this for myself'.
Strawman.

MonsterCrit said:
There are certain scenarios where proof cannot be given.,
Then it shouldn't be asked for. Say, if I were to claim "I bough a muffin for breakfast today", it'd be pretty dumb to ask me to prove it. It's not really going to be reasonable to ask me for proof, either.

Alternatively, it may be reasonable to ask for proof such could not be provided. Then the answer could be "proof cannot be given because ...". Were I to claim I was a member of website such and such a long time ago but since I left my account has been purged or the site was closed or something, then it's quite reasonable that I am unable to come up with proof.

MonsterCrit said:
A can state. This is a picture of two people facing each other!

B can say. No it's a picture of a vase.

How can one supply proof of their stand point to the other?
For this particular WELL KNOWN optical illusion, there can be found many places discussing it. Here is a link [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_vase].

In the more general case of difference in perception, people should be able to effectively communicate their viewpoints in some form or another. Is a work racist/sexist/whatever-ist? People should be able to point at specific aspects of it. Is it something entirely subjective? Then asking for sources is unreasonable.

MonsterCrit said:
They may subconsciously or consciously refuse to see the other party's point of view since they feel it may be equivalent of admitting they were wrong. And the more emotionally entrenched people are the more they will willfully ignore anything that contradicts.
Then that suggests that 1. They aren't really cut out for a debate anyway 2. even "Do your own research" wouldn't help.

MonsterCrit said:
It's why you have people that still dispute evolution and others that believe the earth is only 6000 years old and some misguided fools beleive ELvis is Dead.
How did "Do your own research" help them? Oh, it didn't. So, to summarise - people who wilfully ignore the other party's claims and blindly stick to their own, would not be swayed even if you give them actual proof. Good, now that we know that, why should the rest of us stop doing the reasonable thing?
 

MonsterCrit

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DoPo said:
MonsterCrit said:
Also in the case of B, if discourse is the actual point of the discussion B would naturally be curious enough to actually do the research.
Yet, as you said, different viewpoints can be a problem. Indeed, what if there are two or three widely discussed options but party A picks only one - they should be able to provide any reason why did they pick that and not the others.

MonsterCrit said:
When you say 'Can you prove it?'

you are very subtly insinuation that the other party is mistaken or dishonest. NO one reacts well under those situations. THe more academic and neutral way is ,. 'Do you have a citation?' which more implies. 'I'd like to see this for myself'.
Strawman.

MonsterCrit said:
There are certain scenarios where proof cannot be given.,
Then it shouldn't be asked for. Say, if I were to claim "I bough a muffin for breakfast today", it'd be pretty dumb to ask me to prove it. It's not really going to be reasonable to ask me for proof, either.

Alternatively, it may be reasonable to ask for proof such could not be provided. Then the answer could be "proof cannot be given because ...". Were I to claim I was a member of website such and such a long time ago but since I left my account has been purged or the site was closed or something, then it's quite reasonable that I am unable to come up with proof.

MonsterCrit said:
A can state. This is a picture of two people facing each other!

B can say. No it's a picture of a vase.

How can one supply proof of their stand point to the other?
For this particular WELL KNOWN optical illusion, there can be found many places discussing it. Here is a link [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_vase].

In the more general case of difference in perception, people should be able to effectively communicate their viewpoints in some form or another. Is a work racist/sexist/whatever-ist? People should be able to point at specific aspects of it. Is it something entirely subjective? Then asking for sources is unreasonable.

MonsterCrit said:
They may subconsciously or consciously refuse to see the other party's point of view since they feel it may be equivalent of admitting they were wrong. And the more emotionally entrenched people are the more they will willfully ignore anything that contradicts.
Then that suggests that 1. They aren't really cut out for a debate anyway 2. even "Do your own research" wouldn't help.

MonsterCrit said:
It's why you have people that still dispute evolution and others that believe the earth is only 6000 years old and some misguided fools beleive ELvis is Dead.
How did "Do your own research" help them? Oh, it didn't. So, to summarise - people who wilfully ignore the other party's claims and blindly stick to their own, would not be swayed even if you give them actual proof. Good, now that we know that, why should the rest of us stop doing the reasonable thing?
Consider 'Do your own research' to be a test. One party testing to see if the other is genuinely interested in information exchange. Someone who is would follow that with a question like: "Gotta link I can start with?" IT's like in older days when someone would say 'You need to read X book" The response of someone genuinely interested in continuing the discourse would be, 'Know where I can find it?' or 'Can I borrow yours?'. IT's a two way test. The do your own research is basically testing A testing B and the response, 'Got a link I can start with' is B testing A. whether or not A is willing to put their own vaunted material to someone else's scrutiny.

As for communication, the thing is, for effective communication , both parties have to have a shared frame of reference. IT's why discussions of racism, sexism, etc always go south. Racists almost never consider themseleves racist. So their frame of reference is different which is why it's very hard to bridge the divide. It's like how no woman can properly articulate the pain of menstrual cramps to a man. And why no man can truly articulate the pain of getting hit in the nuts. Oh sure describing it to another guy/woman that's easy... because. Shared frame of reference. Most guys 20 and old know what a nut shot feels like and if they don't thy have lived incredibly charmed lives. Same that by 20 most women have experienced at least one bout of horrid menstrual cramps. If they haven't.. see above.

Granted this is no cure for willful ignorance, but it at least helps you determine if you're deeling with someone who is simply foolish, arrogant or ignorant. FOolish means they simply do not know, Arrogant means they are very self assured of their own viewpoint and ignorant is when they don't acknowledge anything that does not support their view point.
 

happyninja42

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Pluvia said:
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Pretty simple.
Yep, if B says "X is like this." Then it's on B to prove it. So when A says "Prove it, provide evidence to support your claim" A is totally in the right to do so. If B cannot, or refuses to provide said evidence to back his claim, then his claim is unsubstantiated and can be disregarded as pure speculation.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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It's a cop-out, pure and simple. Because even if you do state that you did your own research- and prove it- the person will say "those aren't valid sources", with the unstated conjoiner "because they don't agree with me".

It's just a cockier way of saying "I'm right and you're wrong and stupid, nah nah nah" and then sticking your fingers in your ears.
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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MonsterCrit said:
Consider 'Do your own research' to be a test.
Yet it can also be dismissive "Stop bothering me" or "Shut up, I'm right".

I also notice you fail to realise that if the test "is passed", we're back to Burden of Proof. You're simply adding one step to get to it, you're not suggesting any kind of new approach at all.
 

veloper

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First of all, the point of an internet argument is to have fun, because if you genuinely want information it's much faster to just simply look it up, or to ask a *neutral* question in a more knowledgeable place.

Now putting the burden of proof on an opponent making the claim is a good tactic and the proper response is to dodge it or to satisfy it on general appearances with a minimal amount of effort, because you would have to be an idiot to turn entertainment into doing actual work just for some random anonymous stranger.
Even if you wanted to, not everything is freely published on the internet. Sometimes playing the blowhard can work, by just claiming to have read some stuff(true or not), but it's not a recommended tactic against a good player.

In any case, almost nobody ever provides any actual scientific proof for anything and far more common is linking to seemingly related crap in the hopes of flooding the opposition. Players always asking for proof are usually no different, so trying to turn the game around when they make a claim of their own can be a good tactic.

The only question is how much challenge you want. Attacking a claim, usually the OP, is always much easier than opening with one yourself, because you can question the truth of just about anything and so try to tire out your opponent.
The thing to always remember here is that this is not in any way clever.

The best games revolve around logic and deliberate fallacies.
 

MonsterCrit

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DoPo said:
MonsterCrit said:
Consider 'Do your own research' to be a test.
Yet it can also be dismissive "Stop bothering me" or "Shut up, I'm right".

I also notice you fail to realise that if the test "is passed", we're back to Burden of Proof. You're simply adding one step to get to it, you're not suggesting any kind of new approach at all.
If the test is passed then B has gone and done some research said research adds more data to B's frame of reference. . If A is unwilling to provide at least a starting point.. then A's position is suspect. If B refuses to look, the B is unwilling to expiose themselves to information that may cause them to change their view point .
 

FalloutJack

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I've addressed a thread like this before. I'll just quote myself and save the time.

The burden of proof lies with whoever needs the burden of proof. I speak circularly about thus for a reason: It is not a concrete situation that you can assign one rule of thumb too. Far too complex. Like many things in life, this would be handled on a case-by-case basis. If I had to choose, however, I would start with the loudest and most obnoxious person in the room, simply because I cannot stand such people.
It made sense then and it still make sense now.

Eomega123 said:
A, B, and C
I propose a D, where someone has said something interesting and unexpected from an angle nobody was expecting. I do those.
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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MonsterCrit said:
DoPo said:
MonsterCrit said:
Consider 'Do your own research' to be a test.
Yet it can also be dismissive "Stop bothering me" or "Shut up, I'm right".

I also notice you fail to realise that if the test "is passed", we're back to Burden of Proof. You're simply adding one step to get to it, you're not suggesting any kind of new approach at all.
If the test is passed then B has gone and done some research said research adds more data to B's frame of reference.
You specifically talked about how B would ask for assistance in the research. Which is exactly going back to Burden of Proof.

MonsterCrit said:
If A is unwilling to provide at least a starting point.. then A's position is suspect.
Which is how Burden of proof works.

MonsterCrit said:
If B refuses to look, the B is unwilling to expiose themselves to information that may cause them to change their view point .
Then B is not actually debating but committing at least one of several fallacies.