Its 'sensationalism' and we know it.

[MysticSlayer]

What about justice in 'game design fundamentals? skill trees vs. paywalls (I.E. internet panhandling) and bad dlc pricing? That's not 'serious' enough anymore? We're still paying for those problems. Those latter mechanical and price issues are big issues that make a lot of games suffer and underperform.

No one is stoping you from having those conversations if you want to have them. There's plenty of room to talk about game design, potentially corrupt business tactics, and social justice issues without having to sacrifice any of them. If you don't want to participate in discussions on one of those topics, feel free to not do so. No one is forcing you. However, so long as social issues are important to people, we'll continue seeing the discussion among those people.

Its ridiculous that nothing can exist for its own fun and lunacy, but that it always it has to be some dumb 'symbol of oppresion' all the time. No wonder it gets so spoiled in gaming discussion, Whether the arguments made about a game's ASSUMED sociopolitics are right or wrong.

Representation issues may feel very real for some gamers out there, but the sheer volume of accusations of bigotry in action games is just stupid now and too flimsy to call it a valid movement. We read into shit too much.

Just because some people take things too far doesn't mean it isn't valid. It means that there are some non-issues being brought up among the list of more valid criticisms. Even then, what is and isn't valid criticism is sort of hard to define until someone actually does bring it up and we have a chance to discuss it.

With that said, not all issues are intentional, and I'd imagine few respectable people would argue that everyone is trying to be sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. The problem that arises is that we often hold subconscious prejudices that come out to varying degrees, and part of the issue of bringing up problems is to challenge those prejudices that the creator may have (though it is entirely possible they don't have it). Part of solving a problem is people bringing attention to it, and if someone perceives that there is a lack of representation of a particular gender, race, or what-have-you, then it is certainly worthwhile to bring that up if for no other reason than to alert the creator that they may have unintentionally done something that offends a particular group or makes it feel excluded.

But anything thats totally 'authored' by someone else with chosen characters with a beggining, middle and end is ultimately subjective. We have to go in with that disclaimer, not expecting that all themes and features were pre tailor-made to serve us completely. That is impossible. Because we're different people with different tastes, beliefs, emotional thresholds, and self image. and people at large are going to do or make whatever the hell they want to. Its part of why they got in this biz in the first place. They're not 60-100 hour workweek programmers, writers and 3D artists for shit they're not actively interested in making.

And creative freedom is not an excuse to abuse that freedom, and being allowed to create what you want to create doesn't protect you from criticism. If you want to use a story to further a racist agenda, then you're free to do that, but don't be surprised if people call you out for it. Sure, most game creators probably aren't that malicious, but they still aren't free from criticism.

Brilliant Post! Unfortunately, it's going to be "Too Long; Didn't Read" for the people who need to read this...

What I've discovered with people who argue passionately about social justice issues, most of them are just doing it as an excuse to rage against an anonymous person. All the while feeling morally superior...

Once again, thanks for taking the time for making this thread. I appreciate it, but it will fly over head of most of the people you trying to reach with it.

So in the process of demeaning people for "raging against an anonymous person...while feeling morally superior" you...rage against anonymous people while acting morally superior...

Do people want well written characters or ones just written to fill a quota ?

But there comes one of the big questions: Why are they "just filling a quota"? Why isn't it that better representation isn't coming naturally? That's not to say there is intentional exclusion, but it does pose questions about potentially subconscious issues with the way the person views the world and the diverse people that make it up.

Again, the discussion isn't to say that creators are being intentionally racist, sexist, etc. It is an attempt to point out issues in representation so that people become aware of their possibly unintended exclusion or poor representation of certain groups. The goal is that it becomes more natural to better represent them, not something to be forced; but you're never going to get there if you don't start questioning the underlying problems.

 

[Uhura]

Because it's Mario Kart, honestly. It's a game about racing cartoon turtles, dinosaurs, and bad Italian stereotypes. That, as well as the fact that the words black (or ethnic, for that matter) and stereotype have never, ever been a good combination. Also, moderate is considering Mario white despite being Italian? Counting the baby versions of a character as separate characters? The evil versions of the characters to? The guy brings up the fact that there's so many "white" characters, despite most of them being thinly veiled versions of the same characters in different colored overalls and dresses. There's discussing a lack of diversity, and then there's just reaching to bring up an issue at all, and he was doing some serious reaching there.

I don't think Mario Kart should have immunity in this regard. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to want more diversity in kids games. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with what he said or think it's an issue but I don't think it's wise to immediately shrug off that type of discussions as social justice hysteria either.

What do you mean by that comment about calling Mario white when he is Italian?

Besides, the guy wouldn't have brought it up at all if Far Cry 4 hadn't just kicked up a shit storm about it.

Can't agree with this, mostly because the review was released on the same day as that Far Cry 4 photo was revealed (I think the review was also released earlier in the day than the FC4 press photo). At the time, there wasn't really any drama about the FC4 photo. That came later during the week.

Just as it isn't productive to label those who disagree with the stances they bring up as racist/sexist/homophobic. Still, you're right. My apologies, I guess the more reactionary of the group gets to me a little too much sometimes. Makes me too eager to react and see things where there is none myself. [sub]Consider that me also conceding to the malice thing you brought up earlier.[/sub]

I agree. It is counter productive to dish out those labels without a good reason (and I've seen those labels applied to people who did not deserve them quite a few times). There are rude and OTT people in every community and sometimes even the 'good' peeps need to take a break from heated conversations. I think the entire community would benefit from ignoring the more radical voices in the argument, really. There is too much rage-baiting going around.

 

[gargantual]

What about justice in 'game design fundamentals? skill trees vs. paywalls (I.E. internet panhandling) and bad dlc pricing? That's not 'serious' enough anymore? We're still paying for those problems. Those latter mechanical and price issues are big issues that make a lot of games suffer and underperform.

No one is stoping you from having those conversations if you want to have them. There's plenty of room to talk about game design, potentially corrupt business tactics, and social justice issues without having to sacrifice any of them. If you don't want to participate in discussions on one of those topics, feel free to not do so. No one is forcing you. However, so long as social issues are important to people, we'll continue seeing the discussion among those people.

Its ridiculous that nothing can exist for its own fun and lunacy, but that it always it has to be some dumb 'symbol of oppresion' all the time. No wonder it gets so spoiled in gaming discussion, Whether the arguments made about a game's ASSUMED sociopolitics are right or wrong.

Representation issues may feel very real for some gamers out there, but the sheer volume of accusations of bigotry in action games is just stupid now and too flimsy to call it a valid movement. We read into shit too much.

Just because some people take things too far doesn't mean it isn't valid. It means that there are some non-issues being brought up among the list of more valid criticisms. Even then, what is and isn't valid criticism is sort of hard to define until someone actually does bring it up and we have a chance to discuss it.

With that said, not all issues are intentional, and I'd imagine few respectable people would argue that everyone is trying to be sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. The problem that arises is that we often hold subconscious prejudices that come out to varying degrees, and part of the issue of bringing up problems is to challenge those prejudices that the creator may have (though it is entirely possible they don't have it). Part of solving a problem is people bringing attention to it, and if someone perceives that there is a lack of representation of a particular gender, race, or what-have-you, then it is certainly worthwhile to bring that up if for no other reason than to alert the creator that they may have unintentionally done something that offends a particular group or makes it feel excluded.

But anything thats totally 'authored' by someone else with chosen characters with a beggining, middle and end is ultimately subjective. We have to go in with that disclaimer, not expecting that all themes and features were pre tailor-made to serve us completely. That is impossible. Because we're different people with different tastes, beliefs, emotional thresholds, and self image. and people at large are going to do or make whatever the hell they want to. Its part of why they got in this biz in the first place. They're not 60-100 hour workweek programmers, writers and 3D artists for shit they're not actively interested in making.

And creative freedom is not an excuse to abuse that freedom, and being allowed to create what you want to create doesn't protect you from criticism. If you want to use a story to further a racist agenda, then you're free to do that, but don't be surprised if people call you out for it. Sure, most game creators probably aren't that malicious, but they still aren't free from criticism.

Brilliant Post! Unfortunately, it's going to be "Too Long; Didn't Read" for the people who need to read this...

What I've discovered with people who argue passionately about social justice issues, most of them are just doing it as an excuse to rage against an anonymous person. All the while feeling morally superior...

Once again, thanks for taking the time for making this thread. I appreciate it, but it will fly over head of most of the people you trying to reach with it.

So in the process of demeaning people for "raging against an anonymous person...while feeling morally superior" you...rage against anonymous people while acting morally superior...

Do people want well written characters or ones just written to fill a quota ?

But there comes one of the big questions: Why are they "just filling a quota"? Why isn't it that better representation isn't coming naturally? That's not to say there is intentional exclusion, but it does pose questions about potentially subconscious issues with the way the person views the world and the diverse people that make it up.

Again, the discussion isn't to say that creators are being intentionally racist, sexist, etc. It is an attempt to point out issues in representation so that people become aware of their possibly unintended exclusion or poor representation of certain groups. The goal is that it becomes more natural to better represent them, not something to be forced; but you're never going to get there if you don't start questioning the underlying problems.

I dunno if you could fully quantify KissingSunlight's moral superiority from that post. It reads more like what the poster is perceiving from arguments regarding social justice in fictional media online. Thats a concept that we play with too much 'moral superiority' no one can claim that. We don't know what its like to walk in another persons shoes. I never in my words say that people dont have the right to criticize media from a sociopolitical standpoint. If anyone feels they're on an island calling out regressiveness among a swath of many gamer dudes opinions I'm saying thats not the case. We're not alone. Our views vary greatly in between these sides.

I feel that that games that tread into dark waters of violence, race sex, religion is free to be percieved in all kinds of ways at its lowest and at its highlights and most inspirational. Look at the differing opinions of black pundit commentary or Spike Lee on Django Unchained. People weren't in a straight line of offense. Views differed. Or even the fact Tom Hall and John Romero at Id even argued over making DOOM in the first place. But these things happened. Personal offense is our moment of self definition. we can express that but understand its not going to be the same for everyone, and its not immediately bad if other gamers don't see the same level of taboo. Other gamers think its now an internet barometer of how good or bad they are as a person by not being infuriated at every creative misunderstanding that shows up in popular media.

As to asking why devs haven't made natural efforts to match up with representation. Theres no real social time barometer, and their social responsibility of entertainment makers is partial. As opposed to news folks who mishandle topics and claim themselves to be an authority on subject matter with the premise their content should be understood as simple hard facts and data. When they fuck that up, sometimes society polarizes unnecessarily on issues, people who commit acts of tremendous evil and inhumanity get turned into pop culture avatars. Foolish opinions of everyday people are reinforced when they're told who to hate or demonize this week. Names are named etc.

mass internet criticism has its power too, to discourage people from seeing or playing media they are actually equipped to form their own balanced opinions about. And we dont realize devs stress more over outside criticism as opposed to filmmakers who can choose narrower established markets. Sam Houser was depressed after Congress put Rockstar in that committee inquisition about GTA San Andreas and the sex-anims that went into the hot coffee mod. Grandstanders who don't play games nor understand this stuff is made out of curiosity, not propaganda. You can tell how deliberate pathological controlling infomedia, is different from games that let people unplug, or write different despite giving them a power fantasy.

Making it more natural for devs to create inclusive worlds will be a natural process when they hash those creative decisions out in a diverse pre-production room. When games speak louder than forums wars, articles, and ignorant physical goods marketers. and weigh the opinions of their own team before models and levels are built. it depends on the story, the world, how much the artist claims its going to be based on our world or their own wacky universe. I can't bring myself to be disgusted for them wanting to stay in their zone. If I was a creative director I'd want to maintain that standard and show diversity out of interest rather than fear of market perception. We don't say "wait I don't know enough about all cultures, lives and opinions in the world to qualify to write this book or game or comic." We start with what we do know, blaze forward and learn afterwards. They may have to consider the audience, but we have things such as target marketing where people can go raw and make something risque for their crowd.

I would NEVER even think of asking female vamp series writers to step outside of their skin, and write some more dudes when they've constructed their wonderful dark personal fantasies, where they can be the most raw and honest. That's their shit. Their domain, and while requests are nice its their work and their decision. So its the same with any artist who wants to paint a subjective world. Its so easy to offend people that some slack should be given based on how deep the offense is.

So some of this reaction you see are gamers tired of feeling that they're being vilified by proxy when their overall approval of a game mets with community criticism in some cases that picks out negative elements in a game and tries to project definitions in forum arguements of who the gamers are as a person. I don't see comments like "it was offensive to me, but I'm not judging you man, ease up." Instead we read blanket judgements and presume things about other posters mindsets. You wouldn't like people making judgements about you based on really kitschy NSFW stuff you're into. Neither would I or any of us. Especially when WHY we like or forgive such media isn't asked.

Its not a perfect reading of how we would treat other people in our lives or conduct ourselves. I have people making assumptions of me ' take your own advice ' it sounds (and I'm just saying it sounds like they've constructed some presumed online brute whose grabbing his nethers barking fire down upon anyone calling for diversity in games. I'm thinking like...sorry...No bigot lives here. I don't troll or call people names, or insult peoples livelihood blindly on forums, or call people's opinions unworthy and ignorant, when I argue I try to look for understanding, and bring up points that don't appear to be as heavily considered and reintroduce them into the discussion. I ask questions. I simply say there's some validity to be had from others who don't take as much umbrage with game imagery, and its rooted in intelligence, not ignorance. But not as many weigh their responses until they see they've touched a nerve online. How healthy is that discourse compared to the influence of risque video games that don't judge their participants? Making presumptions about real people is a dangerous line I try at least to watch for. I'm sure you do too.

 

[SilverBullets000]

Because it's Mario Kart, honestly. It's a game about racing cartoon turtles, dinosaurs, and bad Italian stereotypes. That, as well as the fact that the words black (or ethnic, for that matter) and stereotype have never, ever been a good combination. Also, moderate is considering Mario white despite being Italian? Counting the baby versions of a character as separate characters? The evil versions of the characters to? The guy brings up the fact that there's so many "white" characters, despite most of them being thinly veiled versions of the same characters in different colored overalls and dresses. There's discussing a lack of diversity, and then there's just reaching to bring up an issue at all, and he was doing some serious reaching there.

I don't think Mario Kart should have immunity in this regard. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to want more diversity in kids games. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with what he said or think it's an issue but I don't think it's wise to immediately shrug off that type of discussions as social justice hysteria either.

Fair enough. I still feel like the reviewer is cheating, but whatever. It's like I said before, there are ways to go about it without feeling like they're shoe-horning it in for the sake of those complaining. I just feel like it could go wrong as many ways as it could go right, especially with Mario being the stereotypical little Italian that he is.

There is also the fact that the game was made by a Japanese studio and the fact that Japan in of itself isn't very varied when it comes to minorities. Not saying it's an excuse, but it does give a little insight on why it is that way.

What do you mean by that comment about calling Mario white when he is Italian?

Strictly speaking, caucasian males are white males with European descent. Italy's people have their own origin, therefore calling them white is incorrect because they're their own ethnicity.

Besides, the guy wouldn't have brought it up at all if Far Cry 4 hadn't just kicked up a shit storm about it.

Can't agree with this, mostly because the review was released on the same day as that Far Cry 4 photo was revealed (I think the review was also released earlier in the day than the FC4 press photo). At the time, there wasn't really any drama about the FC4 photo. That came later during the week.

Oh, seriously? Well, that's what I get for assuming something. I really need to stop doing that.
Unfortunately, my searching isn't bringing up the original photo anywhere, or the date for it. Do you mind giving me a little clarification on that?

Just as it isn't productive to label those who disagree with the stances they bring up as racist/sexist/homophobic. Still, you're right. My apologies, I guess the more reactionary of the group gets to me a little too much sometimes. Makes me too eager to react and see things where there is none myself. [sub]Consider that me also conceding to the malice thing you brought up earlier.[/sub]

I agree. It is counter productive to dish out those labels without a good reason (and I've seen those labels applied to people who did not deserve them quite a few times). There are rude and OTT people in every community and sometimes even the 'good' peeps need to take a break from heated conversations. I think the entire community would benefit from ignoring the more radical voices in the argument, really. There is too much rage-baiting going around.

Agreed.

 

[Bakuryukun]

This topic: I DON'T THINK THAT THINGS THAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK ARE IMPORTANT ARE IMPORTANT.

Good for you buddy.

 

[InkySpines]

This isn't really limited to games. Games were probably the last medium infected (gasp...otherizing language!). I originally started reading the Escapist because that crap wasn't as ubiquitous as every where else.

What we are really witnessing is the death of Western Liberalism. Neo-Liberalism is its zombie corpse.
PSA to Americans: look up what those words actually mean.

I don't think it is particularly helpful to Chicken-and-Egg whether this is due to the fault of the Left or Right, its a continuous pendulum swing between both that crushes independent thought, and currently the Left is doing its utmost to match the mark set by the Right last decade.

The feedback loop is only going to intensify, as our desperation grows we are just going to lash out at each other more and cripple our ability to actually deal with tangible problems which will increase our desperation.

And can we stop using the phrase "Straw-man Argument"? It has become a tiresome and lazy attempt to derail discussion. There are most definitely real not-straw people who advocate whatever noxious opinion you can imagine. If it is a real straw-man, demonstrate why the opinion presented couldn't be held by anyone (or even a substantial minority.)

 

[InkySpines]

Strictly speaking, caucasian males are white males with European descent. Italy's people have their own origin, therefore calling them white is incorrect because they're their own ethnicity.

You mean like the Roman Empire? The progenitor state, directly or indirectly, for EVERY European country?
I really need to rethink this whole internet forum thing...

 

[Uhura]

Fair enough. I still feel like the reviewer is cheating, but whatever. It's like I said before, there are ways to go about it without feeling like they're shoe-horning it in for the sake of those complaining. I just feel like it could go wrong as many ways as it could go right, especially with Mario being the stereotypical little Italian that he is.

Well, that's a valid concern and it's likely something people who want more diversity also have thought about. (I think there were some interesting points about tokenism and stereotypes made in the Mario thread.)

Strictly speaking, caucasian males are white males with European descent. Italy's people have their own origin, therefore calling them white is incorrect because they're their own ethnicity.

Hmm, I don't think that's the case. I'm European and Italians are considered white/Caucasian over here.

Can't agree with this, mostly because the review was released on the same day as that Far Cry 4 photo was revealed (I think the review was also released earlier in the day than the FC4 press photo). At the time, there wasn't really any drama about the FC4 photo. That came later during the week.

Oh, seriously? Well, that's what I get for assuming something. I really need to stop doing that.
Unfortunately, my searching isn't bringing up the original photo anywhere, or the date for it. Do you mind giving me a little clarification on that?

Here are some of the news stories about Far Cry 4 that feature the photo

Spoiler

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/134538-Far-Cry-4-Will-Take-You-to-the-Himalayas-in-2014
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-05-15-ubisoft-makes-far-cry-4-official-due-this-november
http://blog.ubi.com/far-cry-4-release-date-kyrat/
http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/05/15/f...t-in-the-himalayas-will-be-out-this-november/

The photo was released adjacent to the official announcement of the game on May 15th. The Mario review was released before noon on May 15th.
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/05/mario-kart-8-review-wii-u.html

 

[SilverBullets000]

Fair enough. I still feel like the reviewer is cheating, but whatever. It's like I said before, there are ways to go about it without feeling like they're shoe-horning it in for the sake of those complaining. I just feel like it could go wrong as many ways as it could go right, especially with Mario being the stereotypical little Italian that he is.

Well, that's a valid concern and it's likely something people who want more diversity also have thought about. (I think there were some interesting points about tokenism and stereotypes made in the Mario thread.)

Yes, thank you for hearing me out on the subject. As for the tokenism, I do agree to an extent with those who brought it up, but I actually thought the delfino and Toad ideas were actually a cool way to avoid it, even if they aren't strictly human characters. They'd even go as far as to avoid the stereotyping as well because they are different species.

Strictly speaking, caucasian males are white males with European descent. Italy's people have their own origin, therefore calling them white is incorrect because they're their own ethnicity.

Hmm, I don't think that's the case. I'm European and Italians are considered white/Caucasian over here.

Hm. I had taken a quick look at wikipedia when I wrote that, but I know how flaky that can be. So, yeah, another instance I can be completely wrong and not know it. Most of the cast still consists of the same 4 or 5 characters as babies or in different colored outfits though, but I already stated that.

Can't agree with this, mostly because the review was released on the same day as that Far Cry 4 photo was revealed (I think the review was also released earlier in the day than the FC4 press photo). At the time, there wasn't really any drama about the FC4 photo. That came later during the week.

Oh, seriously? Well, that's what I get for assuming something. I really need to stop doing that.
Unfortunately, my searching isn't bringing up the original photo anywhere, or the date for it. Do you mind giving me a little clarification on that?

Here are some of the news stories about Far Cry 4 that feature the photo

Spoiler

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/134538-Far-Cry-4-Will-Take-You-to-the-Himalayas-in-2014
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-05-15-ubisoft-makes-far-cry-4-official-due-this-november
http://blog.ubi.com/far-cry-4-release-date-kyrat/
http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/05/15/f...t-in-the-himalayas-will-be-out-this-november/

The photo was released adjacent to the official announcement of the game on May 15th. The Mario review was released before noon on May 15th.
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/05/mario-kart-8-review-wii-u.html

Thank you. I'm a lot less annoyed by the whole issue now that I know it happened around the same time. I was more upset by the idea that they were pursuing a new political boogeyman and playing follow the leader thanks to one game's controversy than the idea of him wanting diversity in the game. After all, I really thought it was click-bait at first. Stupid of me, but my mistake regardless and one I'll admit to.
I still think it's a little silly with Mario Kart, but I've already gone over all the reasons why with you, and I appreciate that we had the conversation civilly and heard each other out rather than breaking down and calling each other names over it. Thanks again.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Strictly speaking, caucasian males are white males with European descent. Italy's people have their own origin, therefore calling them white is incorrect because they're their own ethnicity.

And Italians are not "of European descent"?

No, "native" Italians are most definitely white. Ever been to Italy, especially the Northern half?

 

[The Lunatic]

Oh gosh, the "I don't like this, so, you can't like it either, or you're -Insertword-ist." is more than a little obnoxious.


We get it, you dislike sexualised female characters. I dislike them too. but, I appreciate that, some people do like them, and I'm content to leave these people in peace.


I take issue with developers trying to lure in this audience into series which have no history of it, however, and it is a criticism of games I play.

We live in a world where you can literally buy sex dolls of women. Literally, an object of a woman.

And yet we're offended more by women in video games wearing scantily clad clothing?

Do you think the people whom make sex dolls consider what this doll represents for women? Do you think they hold this up as a staple of "This is what we think women are"?

Or do you think that they instead consider "Well, somebody finds this sexy, and that gives us money."?

So, let people have their silly overly sexual women in video games. Let them have their 2D women. It's just not aimed at people wanting more than that.

Instead, buy games that have decently written women, buy games that feature the things you want. Review games, let developers know you'd want stronger female leads in future iterations in the series, but, ultimately, be aware that the majority of the audience for that series, are content with how things are.

 

[Johnny Thunder]

Agreed with the OP 100%, but I doubt it will change anyones mind. Either someone already agrees with that, or they will never, or they will eventually come to that conclusion on their own account...

 

[Rariow]

The real problem here is that it's the internet. We've probably all been here long enough to realize that we're willing to go to much larger depths with pretty much every single issue than we'd be willing to in real life. Take the whole Mario Kart 8 thing. Is the observation true? Yes. That game does have a racist element to it. Now, what the internet does is take that observation and make it into an issue. The truth is this: Every piece of fiction, be it a novel, a film, a game, whatever, is going to have an element that discriminates against someone by their omission. This sucks. These people who are going to be discriminated against are more often than not going to be minorities within the culture producing said piece of fiction. I'm a middle class, white, straight male. Most of the people I know are middle class, white, and straight. I'm currently writing a crappy novel, which I instinctively populated with white, straight people who happen to behave the way the middle class does. I didn't do this intentionally, it's just what happened to occur to me because of how I lived my life.

This is an unfortunate trait of human behaviour: in creative work, we are drawn to that which we know and like. Since most people making games are, much like I am, white, straight males, we can expect to see a lot of stuff going out that would appeal to white, straight males. The fact that everyone else gets shafted sucks. I would love to see more works that are for demographics other than my own.

Re-reading what I wrote, I realize it sounds like I'm suggesting a kind of "fictional segregation", where each race and sexuality has their own fiction to consume exclusive to them. That's not at all what I mean, I'm just trying to point out where the issue comes from. Now, this has been true pretty much since fiction has existed, but the problems that this forum is so fond of discussing has only really been discussed relatively recently. This is greatly part to an evolution in society in realizing that, hey, white straight males are not the only type of people out there. But I think there's a big influence from the internet here as well. I think people seem to assume that a lack of a certain demographic within a work is immediately a form of bigotry. This is not the case, as I've explained earlier. It's just a natural thing that will happen in any creative work.

Now, another big issue is the misrepresentation of certain groups, women in videogames in particular being a big topic on the internet. Now, I can't deny there's a big issue there: women are certainly not presented as well as they should be. The reason this whole "Social Justice Warrior" thing has come up recently is the effect of the internet of people. Let's look at the Far Cry 4 box art controversy, simply because it's the most recent and the one that's probably most fresh on everyone's mind. Now, it's absolutely true, if the character on the cover is supposed to be the hero (which I thought it was evident he was not, but that's irrelevant), that is most certainly a racist piece of cover art. It's no longer in the "we're not including a certain race" territory, it's actively putting down asians. The normal reaction in face to face conversation to something like this would be "Hey, that's kind of racist. I don't like that, I won't buy the game", or something along those lines, followed by a short discussion, and then moving on.

But then the internet comes along, where instead of a couple sentences in the middle of a conversation that flows around different topics, your remark turns into a decently long forum post on a thread dedicated to the topic. For you, it's just that one post. Possibly someone will answer, and you'll then reply and that'll be that, but it's just a few hundred words at most. If it's something that becomes particularly engrained in on-line culture you might bring it up as an example when something similar happens a few months down the line, but you're really not talking about it that much.

Then, along comes one of these people complaining about "Social Justice Warriors". This person isn't racist or sexist or homophobic, necessarily, but they don't really care about social justice, they're just here to talk games. They might not really realize just how deep the issues are, or the fact that by saying Far Cry 4 looks racist you're not trying to say everyone who is excited about it is a bad person. They see your one post about this issue. But they also see the other hundred posts in the thread. And they see that there's threads like this all over the internet, with tonnes and tonnes of posts. You just said a thing and moved on, but to them it's everyone saying the thing, everywhere, and they clomp everyone who ever pointed out into a mass of people who they think just want to spoil their fun.

They don't. We "social justice warriors" love games as much as anyone else. Sure Dragon's Crown was quite sexist. I still enjoyed the hell out of it.

TL, DR:
The joint complaints of everyone on the internet make it look like everyone is completely outraged about something that very few, if any at all, people are really that offended by individually.

 

[Uhura]

Thank you. I'm a lot less annoyed by the whole issue now that I know it happened around the same time. I was more upset by the idea that they were pursuing a new political boogeyman and playing follow the leader thanks to one game's controversy than the idea of him wanting diversity in the game. After all, I really thought it was click-bait at first. Stupid of me, but my mistake regardless and one I'll admit to.
I still think it's a little silly with Mario Kart, but I've already gone over all the reasons why with you, and I appreciate that we had the conversation civilly and heard each other out rather than breaking down and calling each other names over it. Thanks again.

Don't worry, it happens to everyone. Especially in threads that have controversial-ish subject matters (I have face palmed so hard reading some of the messages I have posted in the heat of the moment in earlier ism-threads.)
Yeah, it's nice to have a discussion in a thread like this without name calling and passive aggressive remarks. So thanks to you too

 

[Bombiz]

From 11th century chivalric romance novels promoting ideal aristocratic behavior to 19th century British realism novels spreading the word about social inequalities, fiction has always had a profound impact on our culture. In literary form, theater and film. Why would videogames, being the humongous medium that they already are, be any different in that regard.

I mean, I understand where this reaction is coming from, why gamers get all touchy here, I really do, but come on, they need to think about what they're actually saying. Which is that being exposed to a certain environmental influence (entertainment) couldn't possibly have any signficant influence on anyone whatsoever... which is just ridiculous.

This is something that perplexes me very much. I get that then environment(i.e video games in this case) around a person effects there personality and beliefs. But how is it that showing sexualized content makes people more sexist but showing violent content doesn't make them more violent.

P.S
I'm not trying to convince any one of anything here. Just trying to understand something.

plz no flame

 

[gargantual]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I admit I did show interest in hearing the responses that said, I don't like certain things in games but I recognize that others do. I could feel a bit irritation in some. Like oh here's another guy telling me the politics of these games isn't that large a concern. It just comes from disillusionment about mass media telling people what to be afraid of or ashamed of all the time even outside of games. Internet discussion used to be the place where such panics came to die, instead of invigorate and fester.

I realize what some article writers are trying to do, in garnering support for change in video games and respect for different tastes from the AAA arena by voicing concern of themes or imagery considered regressive.

but I still think there's a difference between loaded imagery, and racist propaganda or schlok (which has evidence of intent to insult another and significant power over the race being slandered}. People have to be able to 'go there' without immeditately being discounted for being a AAA action game and not the great modern film or novel. We know that bad game writing stems from writers being shoe-horned into the development process instead of laying foundations for setting, character and progression from the outset. Even Rhianna Pratchett essentially said that on these forums.

I still believe that fiction only holds as much power over the mind as one allows it, and is most powerful influentially in environments where participants aren't as exposed to its radical differences from their lives, borders and monotony. I said what I said based on the assumption that we're some heavily exposed jaded folks who can piece apart games and films from their influences, and cherry pick what we like and hate to death. A viewer like that....indoctrination is the LEAST of their worries. We've had parents we've had authority figures, a widespread and valuable education and all sorts of groundings.

I still believe that requests are sincere, more sincere than professional umbrage taking and that games could use a serious evolution in demographic outreach appeal, but are still 'requests' instead of 'orders'. Y'know...like clubber requests to a stage band or DJ at a show? "could you play this song?" "could you play that song?" the response being "Sure. I'll see if I can work it in. Maybe. or...If I have it but no promises." The performer does have to read and consider the crowd, but still works in their certain sounds and subgenres and controls the selection, and has to form their reputation for how hard or soft they're gonna go, and seek the right venues so that concerns of prudency don't have the final say over what art they chose to produce, display or be known for. For better or worse this has to be done, otherwise there's no spontaneity and they could replaced by an ipod.

I met a comic cover freelancer one day in a coffee shop (this was back when Borders bookstore still existed, and when I used to think 'man its about the people's request, you can't cross certain lines as a artist'. He vehemently said NO. You ALWAYS have choice in the matter. People don't openly admit they like dark wild shit, and some chaos. He said "You have to define your market, your boundaries and how low you're gonna go from the start, otherwise what people want any given day ends up ultimately being what you always produce and soon enough you're only drawing endless flowers, chibi-faces and family portraits.(nothing wrong with those) but when you decide to go hard, folks'll take it as a slap in the face. That's the difference between fiction creators who serve their creations more than their customers and bosses, and journalists or court sketch artists.

So I think the biggest problem with risque themes in games is mainly AAA studios still presume the dudebros are the entire market. They want to make META games in the spirit of WoW and CoD and are afraid to budget better, ease up on marketing expenses and just go....[HEADING=1]niche[/HEADING], which they REEEEEEEEAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLY should consider at this point. The gamers who don't take umbrage with the status quo in games are niche. As are the ones that do. I, like others respond differently to stuff that others probably wouldn't and I can accept that.

General audiences is a space that should only fit the most profound works of a generation, and only consumers decide whats so good everyone should get involved and has the most universal appeal. DOOM, Final Fantasy up to 10, MGS, Resi Evil up to 4 were successful 'niche' franchises. People look at cut up federales, vampires and hot babes in Robert Rodriguez films and say its 'Robert Rodriguez', instead of showing generic "what is this filth!?" responses. They cut him some slack because he made his bed in kitschy stories. The M rated action should try better to do the same and instead of casting their nets so wide on audiences, but making narrower investments and outreach for M rated controversial games, and expanding their palette for open material in the premiere section that'll benefit everybody.

And forward thinking games speak louder than forum wars. Journey, Transistor weren't born of industry politics, it was born out of genuine curiosity and people willing to invest in it. Gamespot before their site revamp had a special one-time video series called "what type of gamer are you?" Extrovert, Introvert, Completionist, Run n Gun etc. I looked at that stuff as essential research for games marketers, who if they only knew how diverse the market truly was, instead of being irritated at others choice of fun we'd have target marketing is as narrow as film and better games or better games review because of it, where we review devs work for what specific goals they set for themselves, instead of widespread presumptions about what their game should and shouldn't have.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

This is the last thread this whole issue needed - well done OP. It really sums up how much people over-react and sensationalize things through the roof.

But sadly it won't be the last thread and we're going to see lots more threads about sexism, misoginy, racism, LBGT issues, etc getting blown sky-high.

Remember folks, if the game isn't inclusive of your personal wishes/wants or causes you offense THEN THE DEVELOPERS OBVIOUSLY HATE YOU AND YOUR KIND! IT CAN ONLY MEAN THAT!