I've worked out my problem with Skyrim.....do you agree?

[Frostbite3789]

Bethesda did a poor job of giving the main questline any form of pacing.

If quests had time limits, these games would get very annoying very quickly.

Or you could go the Dead Rising route. Have a mode where you can just dick about and do whatever. Have a mode that integrates the story into that. And have a time based story mode. Where you still have time to do plenty of faffing about, but every few quests in the main story there is a, "HOLY CRAP HURRY!" timed quest, or even the whole thing is on some long timer like the original Fallout.

Games are already doing these things (and have for a very long time), I'm not sure why Skyrim is getting a seeming pass for ignoring it.

Disclaimer: That isn't to say I don't like Skyrim. I've enjoyed it a lot. But it's flaws are rather numerous.

 

[NeutralDrow]

This is impressive (I tend this way myself) - however, it does somewhat illustrate the point that you have to go out of your way (outside of what the game gives you to work with from npcs and situations) to actually role-play beyond having your role to play.

I'd probably be offended if a game tried to force me to roleplay. Much better that they either subtly manipulate me into wanting to (a risky maneuver, but I'm more suggestible than most), or just giving me enough options to be able to do so.

Not every RPG player wants to be a Real Roleplayer. Sometimes, they just want to be a Real Man/Loony/Munchkin and hack'n'slash their way through things.

the fact that I can walk into any given group and become the leader just because I happen to be the player.

Have to admit, I haven't completed any of the guild questlines, yet, so I don't know how yet flimsy the justifications actually are for becoming the leader (I'm assuming they don't make you archmage while literally saying "you're the player, why not?"), whether they're genuinely skill-based or you just proved your talent in delving, politicking, and surviving while demonstrating enough knowledge, selflessness, and unwavering devotion to the organization that they feel they'd be well-served with you in charge.

Unfortunately, I made the mistake of creating a thief character with a nobility of spirit who hated the mafia-esque workings of the Thieves' Guild, so she stayed only long enough to train up her sneak and get access to a fence. My armored knight feels the Companions are a little too mercenarial, and my ranger has already had one too many run-ins with Hircune to want to become a werewolf. Every character I made but one despises the Dark Brotherhood, and makes it a point to assassinate them. The only character I have who's going to become the leader of everything has enough magical power to accomplish (he feels) anything, and he has the pride and greed and amorality to want to become the preeminent power in Skyrim.

 

[Blade_125]

Actions speak louder than words.

I like the fact that in Skyrim I can pick what I do or don't do.

A little biy asked me to assassinate the head of the orphanage he ran away from. I wanted to investigate and found her to be abusing children, so I killed her to save them (although I should I had the option to find someone else to care fo them).

Later someone from an assassin's guild kidnapped me when I slept and told me I had to kill one of three people to prove I was good enough for their guild. I had no idea who these people were, and frankly I don't did the first one to save the children. SO I said to hell with this, you are evil, and I killed the assassin.

There is your role playing. I am the character in the game when I play, and my actions dictate the type of character I am. Dialogue options don't dictate this is role playing. Plently of games have dialogue options, but about as much role playing as a book.

Try taking a different view on this game and you will really enjoy it. My first character is a hero. He doesn't steal, goes out of his way to help others, and feels he must stop the civil war and the dragons.

Perhaps too many younger people today didn't play any non-video role playing games so have a tough time immersing themselves into another character.

 

[tumultuoustibia]

I pretty much agree with you, though I feel that there is a lot more to be said about the various problems with Skyrim's setup. I wrote an article about it. Check it out if you care to. http://thefoxandnoun.blogspot.com/2011/12/please-please-pretty-please.html

 

[Chezza]

Maybe a living breathing dynamic world where you earn your role as the dragon born would be better. I am talking about villages and cities become under siege not because its in a quest line but the A.I. actually and logically lives with or without you. Furthermore quests appear and vanish in time due to worldly events influenced by NPCs.

A great example is the Mount&Blade campaigns. Traders, looters, diplomacy, armies, lords and all have their own agenda that will run on their own agenda. Opportunities and threats will appear based on their actions, not yours. But if you do want to be a major influence or someone of renown for unique quests and missions you need to work hard to get there. Save villages, do petty quests for lords recognition, train and fight hard to be recognized in the tournaments. Its all optional and not sitting there waiting for you to be its master. In the end its far more dynamic, alive and rewarding.

I would love some Fable and Mount&Blade features added into The Elder Scrolls, I really would.

 

[Vault101]

Actions speak louder than words.

I like the fact that in Skyrim I can pick what I do or don't do.

A little biy asked me to assassinate the head of the orphanage he ran away from. I wanted to investigate and found her to be abusing children, so I killed her to save them (although I should I had the option to find someone else to care fo them).

Later someone from an assassin's guild kidnapped me when I slept and told me I had to kill one of three people to prove I was good enough for their guild. I had no idea who these people were, and frankly I don't did the first one to save the children. SO I said to hell with this, you are evil, and I killed the assassin.

There is your role playing. I am the character in the game when I play, and my actions dictate the type of character I am. Dialogue options don't dictate this is role playing. Plently of games have dialogue options, but about as much role playing as a book.

Try taking a different view on this game and you will really enjoy it. My first character is a hero. He doesn't steal, goes out of his way to help others, and feels he must stop the civil war and the dragons.

Perhaps too many younger people today didn't play any non-video role playing games so have a tough time immersing themselves into another character.

well I think its a personal thing to some extent, but I dont think its fair to dismiss such a critism as "young'uns today dont know how to role play!"

like I said, I know my charachter...but no one is the game does, skyrim seems to be one big playground but not much else....sure I can use my imagination, and unlike oblivion that may surfice here..but it still annoys me

Dark Souls is similar in that you have very little charachterisation..and so far pretty much no dialoue to speak of

BUT unlike skyrim from the start I have alot of personal attachment to whats going on, theres that crushing "underdog" feeling, a sense of hopelessness, that I must fight to survive...Im not some "chosen hero" (well sort of) I am an undead warior

I do wonder if they could improve this aspect of Elder scrolls without sacrificing too much freedom (like fallout NV?)

 

[honestdiscussioner]

The problem with that you're feeling, in my opinion, is that you're expectations are misguided. What your character represents is not the center of all things, but a catalyst. You want something like Bioware, where you're the chosen one who is the only hope for the entire game, and the driving force\energy making everything happen, the only one who can set things right. It's different in the Elder Scrolls. What's going to happen is pre-ordained by said scrolls, mostly, and instead of being the power that moves the plot to the conclusion you want to achieve, rather you are the mechanism by which the inevitable end comes to fruition. Your only real power is by deciding what to catalyze, if anything. You're never obligated to do anything, even the main quest line, so by deciding what to catalyze you display the power you have over the world. Without you, even though the dominoes are all set up, they will never fall down.

My first playthrough I avoided the thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood questline, and helped the Empire take back control. Now I'm avoiding the mage's guild and companion quest line in favor of the more evil ones and ensuring the Stormcloak's win, since I decided my character is evil. Technically I could catalyze it all, but instead I'm going to exhert some restraint and build my character's path, rather than select from a few pre-selected path "this one is good" "this one is evil". I could technically try being more of a grey-area character and be a warrior assassin that wasn't too much into the thieving and wanted the more barbaric Stormcloaks to reign . . or be a thieving mage who felt the empire would be a bit more lax and more friendly towards magic. What I am on the big scale is determined by WHAT I do.

That's the macro though. In micro, it's reversed. By deciding HOW to do something, rather than WHAT to do, is how you shape your character on the micro end. Why do you think the system is geared towards action rather than achievements? In most RPG's, a kill is a kill, but not in TES. Whether I kill someone with a fireball or a one-handed sword shapes who my character is. It's the same effect, "my target dies", and yet my character is shaped by it.

It's just the opposite of how it is normally done, and that fresh perspective is . . well . . refreshing. Not necessarily better, but not worse either. Just different. Instead of HOW being meaningful on the macro scale "Do I bribe this person, kill them, or try to help them out", TES makes WHAT meaningful on the macro scale "Do I join the brotherhood, or wipe them out? " Did I tip the balance in favor of stormcloak's or Empire?". Then on the micro side, instead of WHAT you did "did you finish this quest?" mattering, it's HOW you did it "did you sneak in, blast in, bribe your way in?".

Appreciate the game for what it is, and you'll feel a lot better.

 

[Jasper Jeffs]

Bethesda did a poor job of giving the main questline any form of pacing.

To be fair, this is a flaw of open-world, non-linear games in general.
In Fallout 3: "Quick you must rescue your father from Vault 112 !!"
It took me ages to do that, because I was too busy getting sidetracked and doing all the side missions, or just simply exploring (I made that sucker wait).
Did I fail the quest? No.
Did it upset pacing and/or flow? Well, yes, but the developers can't really do much about that.

If quests had time limits, these games would get very annoying very quickly.

I thought Fallout 3 was better, the story was simple; you leave the safety of your vault to search for your father in a huge wasteland. Whilst it remains the central storyline, it doesn't force itself down your throat and it opens up reason to explore. Skyrim's story presents itself as the end of the world, the dragons have come back to life and they want to destroy everything. It's obvious the world will never end, presenting the story as such creates the illusion of haste which doesn't work in a game world that exists in stasis.

I agree my complaint can be extended to other open-world RPGs, but some deal with it better than Skyrim. Generally, I just dislike storylines where you're the exception to everything. Not only does Skyrim do that, you're also the exception to everyone. Every single fucking NPC is just waiting to give you a quest, it's honestly pretty fucking depressing, but that can be said about probably every RPG. I've said it before in a different Skyrim thread, it's all fun up until the point you realise everyone is waiting for you. Literally.

 

[Blade_125]

Actions speak louder than words.

I like the fact that in Skyrim I can pick what I do or don't do.

A little biy asked me to assassinate the head of the orphanage he ran away from. I wanted to investigate and found her to be abusing children, so I killed her to save them (although I should I had the option to find someone else to care fo them).

Later someone from an assassin's guild kidnapped me when I slept and told me I had to kill one of three people to prove I was good enough for their guild. I had no idea who these people were, and frankly I don't did the first one to save the children. SO I said to hell with this, you are evil, and I killed the assassin.

There is your role playing. I am the character in the game when I play, and my actions dictate the type of character I am. Dialogue options don't dictate this is role playing. Plently of games have dialogue options, but about as much role playing as a book.

Try taking a different view on this game and you will really enjoy it. My first character is a hero. He doesn't steal, goes out of his way to help others, and feels he must stop the civil war and the dragons.

Perhaps too many younger people today didn't play any non-video role playing games so have a tough time immersing themselves into another character.

well I think its a personal thing to some extent, but I dont think its fair to dismiss such a critism as "young'uns today dont know how to role play!"

like I said, I know my charachter...but no one is the game does, skyrim seems to be one big playground but not much else....sure I can use my imagination, and unlike oblivion that may surfice here..but it still annoys me

Dark Souls is similar in that you have very little charachterisation..and so far pretty much no dialoue to speak of

BUT unlike skyrim from the start I have alot of personal attachment to whats going on, theres that crushing "underdog" feeling, a sense of hopelessness, that I must fight to survive...Im not some "chosen hero" (well sort of) I am an undead warior

I do wonder if they could improve this aspect of Elder scrolls without sacrificing too much freedom (like fallout NV?)

Sorry if I cam across as dissing the young'ins. I was just thinking to myself, as like you have pointed out Skyrim does push you to use your imagination to come up with a lot of who and what your character is. I wondered out loud if it is not as simple for people who have grown up with modern video game. I could be way off base on that fact.

I disagree with it being a personal thing as far as what the game is suppose to be. Skyrim doesn't tell you who your character is, or even give you limited options on your personality (like dragon age for example). The game says here you go, do whatever you are going to do.

The personalaspect is if you like that kind of game or not.

 

[Sharp Blue]

The thing with TES games is that bethesda provides the world and a story, you provide the role playing. When you start a playthrough you should decide what kind of charicter you want to play for example: a badass assassin or a good hearted swordsman or even a sneaky witch-thief, and then you should ROLE PlAY the assassin would look upon the mages collage as a oppertunity to pick up a few tricks, the swordsman would see tricksy mages better avoided. You sould not try to do everything in a single playthrough.

 

[Necroid_Neko]

Personally, I'd be happy to just be able to play it
1 minute of game time then getting kicked out of the game is no fun

 

[badgersprite]

Yeah, I can totally see how if you're someone who wants a defined character and a more traditional narrative that Skyrim wouldn't appeal to you, because at its heart Skyrim is a sandbox rather than an RPG, like most Bethesda games. They're sandboxes with RPG style quests and stats.

That's never bothered me about the game, to be honest. I love the freedom it gives you, and the fact that it doesn't treat you like an idiot. I've basically played the game this whole time as a manipulative as hell bastard who has effectively usurped all power in the lands into their own hands in the most covert coup since Fallout: New Vegas. It's great. I'm playing a completely pragmatic character who lies to everyone about their motivations and is smarter than everyone else by a mile.

I don't have a problem with Skyrim at all. It's just a different style of game. Some people may not like it, but I think there's room in the world for linear, story-driven RPGs like Bioware games as well as open-world sandboxes with RPG elements like Bethesda games, just the same as there's room in the world for both progressive rock and heavy metal.

Do I like games with strong characterisation and storylines? Yes. Of course I do. But I don't feel every single game has to be like that. Sometimes I just want a different experience, and I think Skyrim happens to be a great example of that type of different experience. It won't appeal to everyone, but I think it just needs to be appreciated from that perspective - that it's kind of doing its own thing and not trying to be any other game.

 

[him over there]

I'm a little flummoxed by the people who say "You're not role-playing." Skyrim provides little room to roleplay. Yes you can do most anything to reflect your character but the game doesn't acknowledge it. You can be a thief or mage or cannibal or whatever but roleplaying is a two way street. Plus you're really only playing your character's profession and personality, Your role is still the same. You are a dragonborn, destined to save the humans from the return of dragons. Regardless of what you are like the only way to progress is to fulfill this role. The only real ways to complete the quests is through violence, or deny them. Plus the game seems to have a sort of on/off duty feel. The people are amazed that you are the dragonborn when you kill the first dragon, they don't know your name after that. Also why do people suddenly know all my crimes and that I have a bounty on my head if I killed all the witnesses miles away from any town?

 

[omicron1]

I suppose that's because Skyrim isn't a Dwarf Fortress-style simulator. At heart, it's a theme park - a series of directed rides with defined start and end points, running off in all directions. The only difference being you can get off these rides at any point and chase butterflies.

I doubt we'll see a game that solves this problem for years to come, though. Tarn Adams has been working on his simulation for years now, and he has a very long way to go yet. For a conventional company and a conventional budget, there's simply no chance. Not without relegating themselves to ASCII graphics... Skyrim and its ilk are literally as good as it gets. And that isn't perfect, and it may not even be good enough, but I'll take what I can, thanks.

 

[NeutralDrow]

A little biy asked me to assassinate the head of the orphanage he ran away from. I wanted to investigate and found her to be abusing children, so I killed her to save them (although I should I had the option to find someone else to care fo them).

If it helps, they're actually cared for by the old woman's assistant, who you might recognize as the woman who tells you she's doing what she can to keep the children's hopes up...or possibly as the woman who hides in a corner begging for her life while all the children gather around Grelod crying "We love you, Dark Brotherhood!" Depending on whether you shot first or asked questions.

If you go back later and talk to her or the kids, they'll be realistic and admit that things are still really tough for them...but now, at least, they feel they can make it (likely with fewer bruises), and they can hope and loving relationships without those things being unceremoniously squelched.

 

[littlealicewhite]

One of my Skyrim characters I've played was a young female Imperial mage who'd been a slave for most of her life an had only just been freed. Her thoughts on almost being executed was 'Well, at least I'll die free.' Immediately after making it out of Helgen with Hadvar (she was so used to taking orders she just followed him in when he said to) she ran away in the direction of Falkreath and from then on avoided people and civilization in general unless she needed potions. She turned to dungeon delving when she realized that she needed money to live on her own and needed a place to call home.

That is the story of Alene, the Imperial mage. Without any NPC asking about her or recognizing her, I characterized her and her motives. I understand that not many people may like playing that way, and I would like you to understand that it is possible to like playing that way. Can we agree on that?

 

[The_Lost_King]

Becoming the leader for the companions and mage's guild is just ridiculous. At least with the dark brotherhood it makes sense. You brought the theives guild back so you deserve to be the leader but with the magi and companions they notice that there is a camera behind you and say here you get to be the leader.

 

[The_Lost_King]

I would love some Fable and Mount&Blade features added into The Elder Scrolls, I really would.

"People always enjoy a good fable. M'aiq has yet to find one, though. Perhaps one day."

 

[Cazza]

In one of my play throughs of Skyrim I killed most of the people in Whiterun. I did pay the HUGE fine. After that everything was back to normal. I even got married to one of the few people left in the town. Why would someone marry someone who they saw kill half the town? Shouldn't I be run out of town?

The world is too passive. If I kill cave of bandits I want people to thank me for stopping the bandits that made that road so dangerous. If I keep stealing people stuff (and get caught) I want quests of could you please give this necklace to someone in the next town to not be available. Im known for stealing shit don't trust me with that. Im going to steal it.

If I side with say the rebels I want the empire to arrest me on sight. Though thats kind of a game breaker. I could let that slide. I still want the small things to add up.

 

[Deadyawn]

You've hit the nail on the head. There really isn't any actual roleplaying persay in bethesda RPGs. They're still fun and all but if you want your character to feel like a character then the game's probably not for you.