Japan Ready To Ban "Gacha" Gameplay

[w00tage]

/shrug can't be helped. The fact that there was no law against mind-screwing players for money (level-treadmilling is a great example), and therefore unethical companies jumped on the concept to such an extent that it's now established as a predominant mechanic in MMOs, doesn't mean it's ok. Laws always lag behind innovation.

 

[Treblaine]

Alright, I'm going to start with the only place that matter since my original post was only about how the TF2 crate system can fall under the same 'Gacha' laws that are impacting these Japanese social games. It's not entirely based around those things. I understand that. But the central mechanic behind it could still be considered a large enough part where it could possibly be looked at when deciding what action to take with that law. My posts was not an attack on TF2, just making a comment that it can easily be considered similar when looking at the games this article actually talks about.

Hmm, the crates is interesting but the odds of what you find in every crate is listed. You know the odds and aren't lied to "oooh, if you're lucky - and you should be - you'll get it"

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Mann_Co._Supply_Crate

The problem with this logic is that, while an external source does give you the odds, the game itself only lists 'an exceedingly rare special item.' It does say exceedingly rare, but it doesn't really give the player any sort of idea how much of a chance they really have. Which is something I'm fairly confident you could do with most other Gacha-based systems. So you don't 'know the odds' if your someone new to the game.

It's not an external source, it's Valve's Official Wiki, it's within the www.teamfortress.com domain that Valve owns. It's the De-facto game manual. I can't see how you'd spend any amount of money without going there to check everything out. Gacha and gambling casinos are all about keeping its odds secret and implying you have better odds than you actually do have.

Well I chose metacritics because how can you get a more objective measure of worth? Metacritic isn't good for distinguishing a 85% from a 92% but it is good from distinguishing a 90% game from a 50% game. I'm not using metacritic to indicate that is it "great" simply that it is not-shit. It functions as a game and I added the 2007 qualifier for how this was before any alternate items or random drops were implemented.

I'm not saying EVERYONE likes TF2, I'm saying you can enjoy it just for the gameplay, the fragging and point capturing and so on. It isn't entirely dependent upon spending loads of money for a miniscule change of getting anything other than nothing as in Gacha games. All the other items add variety to what is an inherently good game for those who suits it's tastes.

My point against that was that giving numbers which are based solely on the opinions of reviews is not really a good method of providing proof for someone when it's entirely based on opinion. It may not be dependant on that system where you are spending quite a lot for a very small chance at anything decent/worthwhile, but that system is there. That's not really a stab at the game as much as saying that it does have a similar, if less central, system in it's gameplay.

Whatever, it was a throw away line, I've explained myself enough already. It's not "just a number" but a number that represents the opinions of over a dozen professional game critics in relation to other games, and that's a lot more relevant than my personal opinion.

Give me any documented example of someone who logs onto TF2 just for the random drops of items and when they get then NEVER uses them. That would be "just there for the items" and I have to ask, what is the cost to them? It uses up their system memory running their program idling and takes up a valuable slot on servers but it doesn't cost them anything as not only does TF2 have no subscription fee, it doesn't cost a penny to get started. OK, you do have to put a minimum of £4 in you wallet to buy ANYTHING to increase the size of your inventory but that's hardly comparable to the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

There are a lot of people who idle just to get items. Many of these people are traders who will never use them. They melt the weapons into scrap, and trade the hats to the highest bidder. I know this because I do it myself, as do many traders. You see, each hat is worth at least about a Refined. A refined is worth roughly $.60 last time I check. You normally get enough weapons if you don't get a hat to make about a refined, even if you have to scrap-bank. So the people who do this have no interest in the items themselves, only in selling them for either Steam games or straight cash.

And you're right, it's not one person spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. But adding atogether the number of people who buys keys, not to mention having to put $5 (or four pounds judging by your post) in order to get a premium membership, the money put into it to have the better random drops and have the chance for the big items adds up quickly. Hell, I once saw a person with I believe 50 keys unbox 50 crates. He got one low-tier hat with a low-level effect and a bunch of stranges. The reason I mention this is because those 50 keys translate into $125 spent on keys for one person for the crate system alone. It might not sound like much, but I'm sure that Valve makes a LOT of money off keys.

You idle? But when you get the hats do you NEVER wear them in game? DO you just have the hats to have them and go immediately back the idling some more?

Now if you are a trader in it for the money you aren't being exploited, you are the one exploiting Valve: filling up their servers and getting given valuable things (whether it is defined as goods or services) they can sell for cash or other games. It's money for free, I'm amazed the WaW gold farmers haven't moved in yet. Perhaps it's a matter of time.

Hmm, pretty extreme example though, $125 worth of keys but if he'd put $125 into a slot machine or on the blackjack table (or Gacha) he could easily have walked away with absolutely NOTHING. But instead he has 50 items varying in price (by mann-co store price) as high as $4.99 such as the Liberty Launcher but with added value of being "Strange" and he knew the precise odds on every transaction if he cared to look. Remember, it's the OFFICIAL Wiki, not external, it's practically the Team Fortress 2 game manual.

Do you have a list of all the items? It'd be very interesting to see if adding up their price (of what they are in Man-co store at time of crate drop), what that number adds up to. Anywhere close to $125 possibly? And they'd all of course have strange attribute that must add some value. See, this is where it is really distinct from casino gambling or Gacha, you put money in and you get SOMETHING out.

Everything else you can get by random drop, the difference is the Strange Attribute, now that's only useful for gameplay, tracking kills and various other point contributions. Paying for a gameplay enhancement that does NOT give any unfair advantage... what is the problem? There is no chance you will pay and get NOTHING, you'll always get something but which?

It's like a random sweet mix you buy with your friends, if you like the green ones and hate the red ones you don't have to buy another random mix, just trade sweets with your friends. What kind of person buys a dozen random sweets and only eats the 1/6th they like and discard the rest?!?!?

Quick question: When did I ever mention this Gacha system giving anyone an unfair advantage? I have stated that it's there, because it is. But you're right, having a strange item doesn't make a lick of difference. That's why in terms of trading they're basically considered worthless before very long after release (a few exceptions being stranges from rare crates like #30). You're right that you never get nothing at all. Well, depending on your definition, you aren't getting anything because it's a virtual item, hence the law's problem with these social games instead of, say, Magic or Yugioh cards. But I agree you don't get nothing. But the value of what you get differs wildly depending on what you manage to draw.

I mention gameplay balance just to head off the idea Valve is running a "Pay 2 win" model, the strange-weapons won't give an advantage against opponents. But it does have value beyond competitive advantage, and that is the personal pride of tracking your kills or buildings smashed in game.

The law needn't be far behind, "virtual item" is analogous to channels on a TV service or some other access, you are paying for access to a service, not for an actual item. The law is well versed on right of ownership on goods and services.

Then there is the TRADING aspect. Say you open Crate #43, you want the Strange Shortstop but instead get the Strange Tribalman's Shiv. Well you didn't get something worthless, you can trade with someone who got the Strange shortstop who want the Strange Tribalman's Shiv.

Yes, certain weapons suit certain playstyles, hence the trading system. That's how I got The Original (I like how the rocket fires straight down the crosshairs) I traded it with someone who didn't like playing soldier so I gave him one of my extra items from one of my less used classes. Trading to suit each's playstyle.


Trade with your friends or if traing with strangers then enter into trading with reasonable terms and the right mindset like:
be polite...

...be efficient....

...and have a plan to trade with everyone you meet!

If you manage to find someone who wants your Strange Shiv and has a Strange Shortstop. The problem is that stranges aren't all equally valueable. You might get lucky and find someone who has the item/s that you want, but what do you think the chances are that you'll find someone who has exactly what you want and wants exactly what you have? Now, you might have a friend who has something you want. Maybe they don't need and will trade you. But I've run into plenty of times when I've had something I've needed, my friend has had it, but he wouldn't trade it to me because he liked it and was still using it. I don't fault him for that of course. But it does mean that I had to delve into the trading areas for what I wanted and never managed to find one for a good deal.

The better bet is to look for traders. That's why sites like tf2outpost exist. But the problem with that is that many people are asking for absurd items. Most won't take items for items. Many want metal, keys, Bills, buds, Max heads, etc. Things that are considered the basic 'currency' for the TF2 market.

Now, most standard items are easy to get. Your run of the mill weapon will cost you 1 scrap most of the time. But when you get into harder to find items, then the cost begins to rise. As it should mind you. TF2 is one of the best examples of a free market, though Valve does have control over it to some degree (A good example of some traders getting screwed over is the Paper Hat ordeal). But this leads to the fact that a lot of people who go into trading without knowledge of what they're doing get ripped off pretty quickly. Someone might walk away happy they got standard hat x by trading the glowy one they didn't care for, but not realize the glowy one was worth about $60 and the one they got is worth about $.60.

But to be clear about one thing, all of that doesn't matter to my original point. Those are problems with the trading system. And they are going to happen pretty much no matter what. People were trading stuff long before the actual trading system was in place. The problems of the trading system really don't influence my point on the crate system all that much. They are two seperate sections of the game with their own benefits and faults.

Why not go in agreeing to trade like for like. Look at the mann-co store and any two items that are the same price should be a straight trade so Liberty Launcher wouldn't be traded with Loch n Load as one is much more expensive in Mann-co store and you don't have to get into an argument about TF2 tactics of which is more valuable, the store price settles that issue.

Going into if without knowledge is a bad situation even if it's the other party as though you may make rich you make them mad and spoil the community. NEVER TRADE WITH ANYONE unless you both agree on what its mann-co store price is. Every time you trade with someone, insist they check out the OFFICIAL (responsibility of Valve) wiki for now and all future trades.


...


Also you must impersonate this man throughout:

 

[PinkiePyro]

I want it banned everywhere Gacha is a f-ing a-hole tactic it usually works by play shiny Gacha collect useless items a though f and get this shiny game nearly game breaking item Z!!

 

[Kapol]

It's not an external source, it's Valve's Official Wiki, it's within the www.teamfortress.com domain that Valve owns. It's the De-facto game manual. I can't see how you'd spend any amount of money without going there to check everything out. Gacha and gambling casinos are all about keeping its odds secret and implying you have better odds than you actually do have.

It's endoursed and hosted by Valve, but the content is created and made by individuals. Now, most attempts at sabatoge would be met pretty quickly, as well as punished with a ban, but that also means that not all of the information will be 100% accurate all the time. Mind you, the wiki is a better source then many sites. And it's better then relying on individuals calculations of probablity, but in the end it's not perfect.

By external I'd meant more along the lines that you have to access a source out of the game for the information. The chances aren't in the game, even though it wouldn't be difficult to put them there. It's obvious that people should look into things before spending money. But we both know that that isn't always (or normally if you ask me) the case of what happens.

*snip*

Alright, I need to address a few things. The first is simple. You keep putting words in my mouth. I never said TF2 had a "Pay 2 Win" system or even implied it. I never said that Valve was 'exploiting' people using the crate system. Do I think it's the same, or at least similar, type of chance-based system that these Gacha systems run on? Of course. Do I think it's the exact same? No, because they aren't required to actually play the game or win. Does that mean it's not a Gacha system? No. Do I think that Valve is 'wrong' or 'evil' for using these systems? No. Do I think these systems need to go away? Not really. While I have seen people spending a lot on TF2 items, that's their choice. I don't think the government should step in unless it's a major problem as the social games mention have shown to be.

For your question of 'do I ever wear them?' No, I don't. I have a number of hats I do wear. Namely my tower of hats and my Western Wear. Holding onto my dragonborn helmet because I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it. Most of the rest (which is right now a Copper's Hard Top) will be sold whenever I'll need some metal.

But the biggest problem with your post is something that makes it obvious to me you haven't done much serious trading in TF2. Nobody really goes by the store prices. Nobody even goes close to the store prices for most items. The weapons you mentioned are worth five or so cents in terms of trading. Strange weapons are worth more, but normally don't go over about sixty cents. This is a better place to get an idea of what people use for trading prices on average: http://tf2spreadsheet.blogspot.com/ (when looking at it, keep in mind that refined are worth roughly 50-60 cents).

The reason for this is availability. Many of the things you talked about are readily available to buy. You can get pretty much any standard weapon for a scrap without much trouble. And, looking at prices, most strange weapons are only going for a reclaimed now. That's because there are a lot of them. Weapons because they're dropped the most often, and stranges because there are a lot of people hunting the unusual hats since they can be worth a lot of money. Most of the stranges that are worth more are from the rare crates (crate #30 being very rare). Availability drives down the price so that neither is worth much. Hats, which are less common, are worth at least a refined if not bought from the store (if bought from the store and therefore uncraftable, they're only worth a couple of reclaimed) because a lot of people use them to craft other hats hoping to get more valuable ones. Availability is also the reason new items are worth a decent amount but their value quickly drops.

 

[likalaruku]

I've always associated Gatcha with Korean MMOs.

 

[Strazdas]

Looks like the same peopel that commented about bad parenting and whatnot when the US mom tried to do the same are now praising the goverment for doing exactly that in japan. Hypocracy much?

 

[maninahat]

Intrestingly enough, RuneScape implemented a mechanic quite similar to this about halfway through March.

Pissed off alot of players too.

What the hell? How could so many people be stupid enough to blow so much money on something they know is so unlikely just for some item in a game?

People in Japan are much more vulnerable to things like this. Im not sure why, but they are.

Perhaps it is because many of the gamblers in this case are children, who probably don't understand how the odds work. I'll be glad if the game system get banned. There is something very unscrupulous about marketing gambling towards children. Oh won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!

 

[maninahat]

Looks like the same peopel that commented about bad parenting and whatnot when the US mom tried to do the same are now praising the goverment for doing exactly that in japan. Hypocracy much?

You know that last sentence where you deliberately use bad grammar for ironic purposes? The effect is diminished when you accidentally use terrible spelling and grammar throughout the comment.

Which US mom are you talking about? Which people are you talking about? What are you talking about?

 

[MammothBlade]

I'm not sure how to respond to this. Let them blow their money however they want, I say. It isn't a fraudulent practice par se, it's just another form of gambling - to which I am not opposed. This is more an issue of kids having access to their parents' debit/credit cards. Terrible, lazy, money grubbing game design, but not something which I think should be illegal.

Would this also apply to Team Fortess 2 box keys? They don't guarantee that the player will receive a prize. Although someone seems to have addressed that already.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I wasn't disputing the fact that it is a similar system at it's core. What i'm saying is that even though they're similar, the way me3 does it is almost infinitely more fair, almost to the point where you can't really compare them.

Don't fall into the relative-comparison trap.
Paid transactions for luck-driven goods is a terrible idea no matter how gentle or rough the actual cost. People fall for it all the time. I've fallen for it before myself.

CCGs pull the same shit, and people use the same flimsy justification there.
"Oh, it's a game based on competition, not just collecting!"

Except in practice, it's not. Only when both parties have spent a ridiculous amount of cash does it become a game based on execution.

Until that point, whoever has the better cardpool will always have higher odds of winning, by far. It's "pay2win" and gambling no matter how one rationalizes it.

Looks like the same peopel that commented about bad parenting and whatnot when the US mom tried to do the same are now praising the goverment for doing exactly that in japan. Hypocracy much?

Which US mom are you talking about? Which people are you talking about? What are you talking about?

From what I see, s/he's calling out those imaginary US Moms who posted on this forum.
In other words: A lot of nothing.

 

[ThreeWords]

Umm... not to be defending the exploitative practices that these companies have but isn't paying money and hoping to receive a random and rarer valuable item the basis for things like Magic: The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon (and back in the day, baseball) cards?

Oh, if I had a thousand dollars a month to spend on Magic cards. As it is I function on about 2% of said amount.

 

[RyuujinZERO]

Good, next go for game companies that hire psychologists to use Skinner mechanics to increase revenues.

This :|

Whenever I think I'm getting addicted to an MMO I just look at and ask myself "Has it reached the stage where I'm doing this not for the rewarding experience, so much as to avoid the electric shock", if it's the latter it's time to find something new...

...incidentlly it's ALWAYS the latter.



Wonder if GW2 will prove to be the exception...

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

I wasn't disputing the fact that it is a similar system at it's core. What i'm saying is that even though they're similar, the way me3 does it is almost infinitely more fair, almost to the point where you can't really compare them.

Don't fall into the relative-comparison trap.
Paid transactions for luck-driven goods is a terrible idea no matter how gentle or rough the actual cost. People fall for it all the time. I've fallen for it before myself.

CCGs pull the same shit, and people use the same flimsy justification there.
"Oh, it's a game based on competition, not just collecting!"

Except in practice, it's not. Only when both parties have spent a ridiculous amount of cash does it become a game based on execution.

Until that point, whoever has the better cardpool will always have higher odds of winning, by far. It's "pay2win" and gambling no matter how one rationalizes it.

I didn't say i approved but that doesn't mean anything i said is incorrect. Comparing me3 to these gacha games isn't really fair, still uses bad business practices but they're in completely different leagues.
Also what i said about card games still remains true, when you buy a booster pack, you get some cards that you might not want but they still retain value because you can trade them, which is the entire point. It's a trading card game. Whereas if you spend money in a gacha games and don't get what you want you're completely screwed.

I play Magic the Gathering and i agree that there is an extent of "pay2win"
I'd say there are 3 levels of MtG:
1: Novice - where you're using decks pretty much straight from intro packs. It's basically luck who wins because your decks are so unfocused.
2: Intermediate - Where you've bought quite a few boosters or singles so that your decks have a cohesive strategy.
3: Tournament - You've bought dozens and dozens of boosters or bought whole decks of singles. Yours decks are extremely so focused that you'll reliably draw your combos every time.

The problem comes when people of two different levels play together. Say you and a friend start out with intro decks, that's fine but what happens when one person buys more cards and gets a better deck? well that means you have to buy more cards if you want to ever stay competitive. This starts a kind of arms race with whoever spends the most money usually coming out on top.

Anyway to some it up, i'm not some kind of apologist who is making excuses, merely pointing out you can't really compare because they're on two different levels of exploitative practices.

 

[Strazdas]

Looks like the same peopel that commented about bad parenting and whatnot when the US mom tried to do the same are now praising the goverment for doing exactly that in japan. Hypocracy much?

You know that last sentence where you deliberately use bad grammar for ironic purposes? The effect is diminished when you accidentally use terrible spelling and grammar throughout the comment.

Which US mom are you talking about? Which people are you talking about? What are you talking about?

I am sorry for bad grammar, not a native english speaker, so i do a lot of mistakes, but im trying.
Im talking about this and the comments in it: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116888-Facebook-Faces-Underage-Gamer-Lawsuit

 

[Atmos Duality]

Anyway to some it up, i'm not some kind of apologist who is making excuses, merely pointing out you can't really compare because they're on two different levels of exploitative practices.

Fair enough.

I played MtG for a long time too.
After Jace the Mind Sculptor hit 100 bucks (while still in Standard), I had to step back and realize just how fucking ridiculous things had become. I see that shit in the oldest legacy formats; but not Standard.

100 dollars...for a piece of cardboard. Not because it's historic or because it has real collector's value, but because it's competitively powerful AND you're only likely to open one for something like every 40-50 packs (at 4 bucks a pack..fuck that).

I can't keep up with the arms-race, not with odds like that.

 

[maninahat]

Looks like the same peopel that commented about bad parenting and whatnot when the US mom tried to do the same are now praising the goverment for doing exactly that in japan. Hypocracy much?

You know that last sentence where you deliberately use bad grammar for ironic purposes? The effect is diminished when you accidentally use terrible spelling and grammar throughout the comment.

Which US mom are you talking about? Which people are you talking about? What are you talking about?

I am sorry for bad grammar, not a native english speaker, so i do a lot of mistakes, but im trying.
Im talking about this and the comments in it: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116888-Facebook-Faces-Underage-Gamer-Lawsuit

Ah, sorry for hounding on you about it, I didn't realize.

In regards to the forum, yeah you're right, the people are entirely blaming the mother for their kid's gambling problems. It is hypocritical.

I think it is a dick move to basically blame the parent for everything their kid does wrong, especially when the kid was casually exploited by gambling companies who should not, under any circumstances, be letting underage gamers gamble. Yes, I would complain about a mother who lets their kid wander into a casino, but I'd be even more angry if the casino actually let the kid join in at the baccarat table.

 

[notimeforlulz]

For people not getting what's happening, think young kids, like under 10, then imagine a payment system where they parent buys the kid one thing, and from then on the kid can use those payment details to buy anything they want, then imagine letting said child loose in a candy store, except it's magic candy that has been made so that it will never sate a child's appetite, no matter how much of it they eat.

They really should ban this type of shit everywhere since it's basically designed to exploit poor impulse control to get profits.

 

[theultimateend]

Jokes on them! In the US we make it illegal to gamble away your money until you are actually capable of gambling yourself to homelessness!

"Children gambling! They might lose their lunch money!" BAD
"Adults gambling! They might lose their home!" GOOD!

Anyway to some it up, i'm not some kind of apologist who is making excuses, merely pointing out you can't really compare because they're on two different levels of exploitative practices.

Fair enough.

I played MtG for a long time too.
After Jace the Mind Sculptor hit 100 bucks (while still in Standard), I had to step back and realize just how fucking ridiculous things had become. I see that shit in the oldest legacy formats; but not Standard.

100 dollars...for a piece of cardboard. Not because it's historic or because it has real collector's value, but because it's competitively powerful AND you're only likely to open one for something like every 40-50 packs (at 4 bucks a pack..fuck that).

I can't keep up with the arms-race, not with odds like that.

Yeah MTG can be expensive, I just choose not to buy the ridiculous ones.

Otherwise the longevity of the game makes it more valuable than a video game. How many times do you play games you bought in the early 90's? I know I still use magic cards from then .

 

[Treblaine]

It's endoursed and hosted by Valve, but the content is created and made by individuals. Now, most attempts at sabatoge would be met pretty quickly, as well as punished with a ban, but that also means that not all of the information will be 100% accurate all the time. Mind you, the wiki is a better source then many sites. And it's better then relying on individuals calculations of probablity, but in the end it's not perfect.

By external I'd meant more along the lines that you have to access a source out of the game for the information. The chances aren't in the game, even though it wouldn't be difficult to put them there. It's obvious that people should look into things before spending money. But we both know that that isn't always (or normally if you ask me) the case of what happens.

I don't think it matters if the manual is community edited, huge parts of Team Fortress 2 the game ITSELF is community developed, half of the new items that appearing the game are made by people not directly employed by Valve.

Almost every game these days you have to open a source outside the game itself to understand how it works. No where in ANY of the Call of Duty games have they honestly stated the actual damage, recoil and rate of fire of all the weapons, one is totally dependant of forums like DENkirson to publish that vital info or from the official strategy guide which is worthless due to day-one inaccuracies and hwo the game is patched so much but the paper book isn't

Alright, I need to address a few things. The first is simple. You keep putting words in my mouth. I never said TF2 had a "Pay 2 Win" system or even implied it. I never said that Valve was 'exploiting' people using the crate system. Do I think it's the same, or at least similar, type of chance-based system that these Gacha systems run on? Of course. Do I think it's the exact same? No, because they aren't required to actually play the game or win. Does that mean it's not a Gacha system? No. Do I think that Valve is 'wrong' or 'evil' for using these systems? No. Do I think these systems need to go away? Not really. While I have seen people spending a lot on TF2 items, that's their choice. I don't think the government should step in unless it's a major problem as the social games mention have shown to be.

For your question of 'do I ever wear them?' No, I don't. I have a number of hats I do wear. Namely my tower of hats and my Western Wear. Holding onto my dragonborn helmet because I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it. Most of the rest (which is right now a Copper's Hard Top) will be sold whenever I'll need some metal.

But the biggest problem with your post is something that makes it obvious to me you haven't done much serious trading in TF2. Nobody really goes by the store prices. Nobody even goes close to the store prices for most items. The weapons you mentioned are worth five or so cents in terms of trading. Strange weapons are worth more, but normally don't go over about sixty cents. This is a better place to get an idea of what people use for trading prices on average: http://tf2spreadsheet.blogspot.com/ (when looking at it, keep in mind that refined are worth roughly 50-60 cents).

The reason for this is availability. Many of the things you talked about are readily available to buy. You can get pretty much any standard weapon for a scrap without much trouble. And, looking at prices, most strange weapons are only going for a reclaimed now. That's because there are a lot of them. Weapons because they're dropped the most often, and stranges because there are a lot of people hunting the unusual hats since they can be worth a lot of money. Most of the stranges that are worth more are from the rare crates (crate #30 being very rare). Availability drives down the price so that neither is worth much. Hats, which are less common, are worth at least a refined if not bought from the store (if bought from the store and therefore uncraftable, they're only worth a couple of reclaimed) because a lot of people use them to craft other hats hoping to get more valuable ones. Availability is also the reason new items are worth a decent amount but their value quickly drops.

OK, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth and I don't know where I even did?

Just because I said trading isn't exploitative does NOT mean you said it did. The issues of exploitation NATURALLY arises from how crates in TF2 are being compared and contrasted to Gacha games and gambling. This is a public debate where I know people will read it and interject, it's best to head these things off.

"Do I think it's the same, or at least similar, type of chance-based system that these Gacha systems run on? Of course. Do I think it's the exact same? No, because they aren't required to actually play the game or win. Does that mean it's not a Gacha system? No.

Right. So it is not-not a gatcha system, similar to a gatcha system but not exactly the same?!?!? COuld you PLEASE phrase your stance a bit more clearly. Not that it matters, all due respect for your opinion your stance alone isn't enough, what is valuable is your explanation of it's similarity, And I have written MANY PARAGRAPHS about how they are fundamentally different in practical terms, without depending on "I think" or "in my opinion".

I'm not sure if you understood my post, the Store price is not for cash trading but "like for like" trading. For example, to prevent an unpleasant argument between two traders, one wanting to trade a pretty run of the mill weapon for a more valuable weapon, say they want you to give up your Liberty Launcher ($4.99) for their Black Box ($0.99). They could argue about the tactics but the store settles it that one is much more valuable. But as reclaimed metal they are all worth the same.

Also could you give a better explanation (with source) how Reclaimed metal is only worth 50-60 cents? So roughly every 6 weapons that drops that's about 55c in the bank?

Well hang on, what about directly trading one of those weapons for another, instead of fecking around with smelting down a load of them? Like if you have a spare pair of gunboats (one item, pair of shoes) and want a Black Box, that should reasonably be a direct trade with no quibbling over their worth as not only are they the same mann-co store price but they are both soldier weapons so easier for smelting.

Also you seem to be implying you should never buy anything from the Mann-co store, as you can always find things cheaper in trading by smelting down your extra weapons, is this so? I'm not saying you said that directly, but the CowMangler 5000 is $9.99 in Mann-Co store but how many weapons would I have to smelt down to various metals to afford it in trading? Or just or give direct money, how much?

 

[Therumancer]

I put aside some money to experiment with this in STO, which I regret. They are using a similar system with their lockboxes, which require you to pay roughly $1.25 a key to open, with a chance of winning a ship. The odds of victory are however so low that it's the equivilent of throwing money away. I know of one person who claims to have spent $250 in order to get the Ferengi D'kora, and another who claims to have put in over $500 without winning.... I find that disturbing.

To be honest I originally didn't have an issue with paying money into STO, in order to support the development of a game that I feel had some potential. They however announced that they are no longer planning on adding more episodes/story content to the game, or so I have been hearing, so I guess supporting a FTP game doesn't actually do any good.

I'm of the opinion that they do need to ban microtransactions, and not just of this sort. I have a somewhat obsessive personality, but can avoid hurting myself despite occasional bouts of stupidity. I have already run into people who aren't so lucky, and really this kind of thing seems intended to exploit addictive behavior.

I liked the idea of STO's whole "Dilithium Exchange" and so on, it being an interesting way of having a cash shop but making it approachable to dedicated players, but then they stopped producing much content and decided to go with cash-box lottos... no... just no.