Jedi vs others in new Star Wars MMO

[Shepard's Shadow]

In other threads I have seen a lot of people saying that they won't be a Jedi and that any of the other classes will be able to stand up to a Jedi in combat. I don't understand how people can say a normal class can stand up to a Jedi. I would like for someone to give me one scenario where soldier or whatever could take on a Jedi. I'm talking 1v1 and the Jedi isn't incapacitated in anyway.
I don't think it is possible but I will remain open minded.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "normal class" but the idea that a Jedi would dominate in combat vs any other class is ludacris. For starters, the Sith class has similar abilites. But i'm going to assume your talking about a class besides Sith and Jedi. Just b/c someone picks a class other then Sith or Jedi does not mean that they will not be able to use a lightsaber or force powers, to a certain extent. They may not be a specialist in using the force or weilding a lightsaber but they could still do it. BTW, plenty of Bounty Hunters have killed there fair share of Jedi.

 

[Pots]

In other threads I have seen a lot of people saying that they won't be a Jedi and that any of the other classes will be able to stand up to a Jedi in combat. I don't understand how people can say a normal class can stand up to a Jedi. I would like for someone to give me one scenario where soldier or whatever could take on a Jedi. I'm talking 1v1 and the Jedi isn't incapacitated in anyway.
I don't think it is possible but I will remain open minded.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "normal class" but the idea that a Jedi would dominate in combat vs any other class is ludacris. For starters, the Sith class has similar abilites. But i'm going to assume your talking about a class besides Sith and Jedi. Just b/c someone picks a class other then Sith or Jedi does not mean that they will not be able to use a lightsaber or force powers, to a certain extent. They may not be a specialist in using the force or weilding a lightsaber but they could still do it. BTW, plenty of Bounty Hunters have killed there fair share of Jedi.

Yes sorry, I should have said Force Users. So in the upcoming MMO non-Jedi\Sith can use the force also? I guess that would be one way of evening the odds.
What has already been established is that yes, bounty hunters and others can kill force users in a movie\book where 1hit can kill. In a video game I cannot see it being that way unless the force user is ganked or otherwise completely oblivious to the other player (can't see that happening).

Edit: Also I think it would be pretty sad to see a soldier with a Viroblade(sp?) kill a Jedi in melee combat. All Jedi has to do is throw some force defense buffs up along with master speed and done.

 

[Aethren]

Just b/c someone picks a class other then Sith or Jedi does not mean that they will not be able to use a lightsaber or force powers, to a certain extent.

Such information is wrong unless a source is given via link.

Jedi will be more powerful than the other (non-force) classes. Why? The Sith will be on the same level of power. They cancel each other out.

Both classes will still be killable, however. Via sniping, explosives, etc.

Oh, and of course I'd pick Sith. Even though most of the other players will be Sith/Jedi anyway.

 

[Shepard's Shadow]

snip

Okay...it hasn't been announced that other classes could use the force; however non-Jedi and Sith have had Force powers in the Star Wars universe before. It would not surprise me if they could in this game; but i'm not expecting it.

I see what you are saying about close combat, but i have to ask if you saw the most recent trailer. it looked almost movie like. perhaps Bioware will make the entire game realistic like that where the one shot would kill. Also you can have a party in this game. So it may not be 1 on 1. Also, a group of say 3 skilled Bounty Hunters could take down a Jedi.

As far as the Jedi not being aware, perhaps an assassin droid could do it; like HK-47. Or poison the Jedi. Direct tactics are not always the best strategy. I think that is what the combat will be like. Strategy. The winner may not always be the most powerful.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:BFEOTE4-FC.jpg

Bobba Fett doesn't seem to have a problem w/ close combat.

Also, the vibroblade could be special. Poisoned etc. etc.

 

[Verbose]

I don't see the big problem. As a simple hypothetical scenario (which I'm sure many of you could add to or argue, but just in principle) you balance things. We have two scales we need to balance. Ranged versus melee and Force Adept versus vanilla.

I'd propose two things to start on. Damage and health. Say you have laser blasters. Jedi, predominantly a melee class, can deflect blasts. So we give the ranged classes a gun a Jedi can't deflect, say some sonic weapons. Now we need to give the ranged classes a reason to ever use the vastly inferior blasters. So we make blasters do a fair bit more damage. Make health points and force points (or however they're handling it) a trade off (heavier armours having much more health, lighter armours much more force points) and we're beginning to see balance.

Against a class liable to wear heavy armour, you'd want a blaster to whittle away their health. Against a Jedi, who is not so healthy, you use a sonic blaster to reduce the effect of their evasion ability.

There'd be a lot more involved in real balance, of course, but I don't think Jedi are the insurmountable game breakers most people are imagining. Let's not forget that, traditionally speaking, every player character is supposed to be unusually skillful at their given profession so no player character is a mook.

Until you think about the min-maxers who have +58 to deflection rolls and damage reduction...

Then the blaster classes are in trouble.

Which is purely a gear balancing issue, and assuming that Bioware are going to allow Jedi to have significant advantages then it's probably wise to assume other classes will have balancing features.

Hell I'm not even sure how Anakin toppled the Jedi temple.. apparently there was no one there but a bunch of kids and their Force babysitters. Had even ONE of the council members been there, the story would have ended right then right there.

I'd wager him being one of the best and most experienced war veterans in the Jedi Order and being hopped up on Dark Side juice attacking a bunch of kids and people who weren't fit for combat probably had something to do with that.

Anyone who played SWG knows that the addition of Jedi fucks up the class balance. Seriously, the game went straight downhill once they added Jedi. So, making them on an even footing seems to be the most logical solution to making a game in which players can be Jedi NOT suck.

The Jedi were added to an existing game. Even more to the point, originally, they were the reward for a painfully long quest chain before they were handed out to everyone. It's not surprising game balance was ruined there. That's not to say that they couldn't be balanced.

 

[Shepard's Shadow]

Just b/c someone picks a class other then Sith or Jedi does not mean that they will not be able to use a lightsaber or force powers, to a certain extent.

Such information is wrong unless a source is given via link.

Jedi will be more powerful than the other (non-force) classes. Why? The Sith will be on the same level of power. They cancel each other out.

Both classes will still be killable, however. Via sniping, explosives, etc.

Oh, and of course I'd pick Sith. Even though most of the other players will be Sith/Jedi anyway.

Its all theory. So, unless you can prove I'm wrong, I'm not. We are all sepculating on the unknown. You are wrong. Why? You assume Jedi and Sith will be more powerful then the other classes. So, by your logic unless you have a link to prove your right your wrong. And the fact that you think the only way to kill a Jedi or Sith is by explosives or sniping is laughable.

I'm picking Bounty Hunter. So, you better watch your back out there while your exploring the Star Wars Universe.

 

[Aethren]

Just b/c someone picks a class other then Sith or Jedi does not mean that they will not be able to use a lightsaber or force powers, to a certain extent.

Such information is wrong unless a source is given via link.

Jedi will be more powerful than the other (non-force) classes. Why? The Sith will be on the same level of power. They cancel each other out.

Both classes will still be killable, however. Via sniping, explosives, etc.

Oh, and of course I'd pick Sith. Even though most of the other players will be Sith/Jedi anyway.

Its all theory. So, unless you can prove I'm wrong, I'm not. We are all sepculating on the unknown. You are wrong. Why? You assume Jedi and Sith will be more powerful then the other classes. So, by your logic unless you have a link to prove your right your wrong. And the fact that you think the only way to kill a Jedi or Sith is by explosives or sniping is laughable.

Do you know the definition of etc.?

 

[RusticMonkey]

If you're able to roll a Jedi/Sith from the get go, I can't imagine them being more powerful then other classes. That would seriously break the game.

I think it would make more sense to have them follow the old "Mage/Wizard" archetype. Ranged damage via the force, some crowd control sprinkled in.

Just idle speculation ofcourse.

 

[Shepard's Shadow]

Do you know the definition of etc.?

Yes I do. But the two examples you gave suggested that the only way to kill a Jedi or a Sith is to do it from a distance.

My turn.

Do you know that just b/c somone provides a link it doesn't mean that what is on that website is a fact? It could just be more rumors and speculation.

 

[Aethren]

Do you know the definition of etc.?

Yes I do. But the two examples you gave suggested that the only way to kill a Jedi or a Sith is to do it from a distance.

My turn.

Do you know that just b/c somone provides a link it doesn't mean that what is on that website is a fact? It could just be more rumors and speculation.

This is true, though I'd be inclined to believe the official website.

 

[Pots]

If you're able to roll a Jedi/Sith from the get go, I can't imagine them being more powerful then other classes. That would seriously break the game.

I think it would make more sense to have them follow the old "Mage/Wizard" archetype. Ranged damage via the force, some crowd control sprinkled in.

Just idle speculation ofcourse.

Thats another thing, ranged force powers. I can only think they will have to put some sort of force resistance for non-force users. Whats to stop a Sith Lord from Push\Choke\Lightning dead or some combination like that. Guns, explosives and viroblades mean nothing when your choking to death with lightning coursing through your body.

 

[Shepard's Shadow]

This is true, though I'd be inclined to believe the official website.

Agreed. But, Bioware aren't the type to leak info. about there games.

 

[WrongSprite]

It'll work in the same way as star wars galaxies?

 

[Fire Daemon]

Snip

Ok, so he only killed one Jedi. Although looking back at it, that Jedi seems to be one of the jedi council.

I know this is really nerdy but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ebnBZIpESY&feature=related

Pause that video at 2:47

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMqLoIUnrgc&feature=related

Pause that video at 3:07

They look awfully similar to me, although I could be wrong. It seems like the guy that Jengo killed wasn't a noob Jedi but rather one of the most powerful. Plus, Jengo set Windu on fire for a little bit and made him run away and Windu was only able to take down Jengo after while he was distracted with the dinosaur thing, and he's supposed to be one of the best Jedi there is.

As for the Obi Wan thing, I fail to see how Jengo lost. he threw Obi wan over the edge, and Boba behind the cannon didn't really help that much. He only blew up at ObiWan when he was already down on the ground. He didn't do shit.

Anyway, ignoring all this, the Jedi in the original movies aren't that powerful either. Vader dies from a little bit of electricity, The Emperor couldn't even notice that Darth Vader was going to throw him off the edge (you'd think he should be able to) and Yoda died of old age. The Jedi aren't that powerful in the movies. It's the video games (mostly) that make the Jedi seem so overpowered, usually because they are the main characters. The main characters in single player video games are always more powerful than anything else, especially other characters from the cannon, for any game series.

Obviously a Halo MMO wouldn't make the Spartan characters as powerful as the Mastercheif, that wouldn't be fair or balanced. For the same reason a star wars MMO isn't going to make the Jedi as powerful as the main character in the Force Unleashed (whatever his name is). I'd imagine that the Jedi in TOR will be more similar to the way Jedi's are, than there video game representatives.

 

[Pots]

Snip

Obviously a Halo MMO wouldn't make the Spartan characters as powerful as the Mastercheif, that wouldn't be fair or balanced. For the same reason a star wars MMO isn't going to make the Jedi as powerful as the main character in the Force Unleashed (whatever his name is). I'd imagine that the Jedi in TOR will be more similar to the way Jedi's are, than there video game representatives.

Well of course they won't make force users as powerful as the apprentice in Force Unleashed. The thing is, how do you make a guy who can move faster than your eye can follow, push, choke, and lightning you on equal grounds with a man wielding a blaster or viroblade? Who knows what other force powers they will have, I am just using the most common. Hell if you follow the light side and they give you the power to force heal, that would be just one more monumental leap ahead of the common man.

 

[Fire Daemon]

Well of course they won't make force users as powerful as the apprentice in Force Unleashed. The thing is, how do you make a guy who can move faster than your eye can follow, push, choke, and lightning you on equal grounds with a man wielding a blaster or viroblade? Who knows what other force powers they will have, I am just using the most common. Hell if you follow the light side and they give you the power to force heal, that would be just one more monumental leap ahead of the common man.

I'm thinking that Bioware will use specialisation and tech trees. I think that as you level up in all classes you can put points in a specific category, like accuracy, weapon strength, Force lightning or whatever. That way a Jedi might be really good at using force choke (for example) but not very good at using his lightsaber.

Not to mention, Bioware don't have to give you ever force ability to choose from. Hell, the Jedi classes haven't actually been announced yet, we don't know for certain whether they will be in the game or not yet alone what abilities they have.

 

[Tehpwnsauce]

snip

Okay...it hasn't been announced that other classes could use the force; however non-Jedi and Sith have had Force powers in the Star Wars universe before. It would not surprise me if they could in this game; but i'm not expecting it.

I see what you are saying about close combat, but i have to ask if you saw the most recent trailer. it looked almost movie like. perhaps Bioware will make the entire game realistic like that where the one shot would kill. Also you can have a party in this game. So it may not be 1 on 1. Also, a group of say 3 skilled Bounty Hunters could take down a Jedi.

As far as the Jedi not being aware, perhaps an assassin droid could do it; like HK-47. Or poison the Jedi. Direct tactics are not always the best strategy. I think that is what the combat will be like. Strategy. The winner may not always be the most powerful.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:BFEOTE4-FC.jpg

Bobba Fett doesn't seem to have a problem w/ close combat.

Also, the vibroblade could be special. Poisoned etc. etc.

Read the comic. If vader had not be distracted Bobba would have died.

 

[Scarecrow38]

If you watch Episodes 2 and 3 (especially Order 66), and look only at background jedi you'll get an idea. Jedi can't block all blasters, flames and explosions.

 

[olicon]

I remember that! LOL yeah, I can understand how in some cases you can get the drop on jedi, but given their abilities to sense things going on around them, I still imagine getting the drop on a Jedi to be a pretty tough thing to do... maybe in heavily populated areas or on battlefields where there is so much going on and so many minds and emotions and death and struggle going on that it can confuse them.

Thats fine in such a scenario but in a one on one battle where the Jedi knows you are there in an MMO, I'm not sure people are going to be satisfied with being killed by a wookie Crossbow.

Even if the Jedi/force user knows something is coming, it's useless if he's not fast enough to do anything about it.
Bounty Hunters and arguably the Troopers are essentially Master Chiefs of their universe. They are very well trained, and their reflexes are just as good as Jedi, if not better. They are also incredibly well equipped too. The idea that these ridiculously trained freaks can defeat force users is not unrealistic.

 

[Jimmydanger]

Firstly, let me say that it is guaranteed that Jedi/Sith will be on equal footing with the other classes in the game, if they weren't people wouldn't play the other classes and the game would suck.

In terms of lore and the conceivability of the match ups you have to consider that the other classes are not just your run of the mill clone troopers, they are all meant to be heroic in their own right. Besides the force users, the released classes so far are Bounty hunters, Elite Troopers, and smugglers. We've seen from the movies that bounty hunters, specifically Jango, may or may not be able to kill a Jedi but are at least a credible threat. Elite troopers look like they may be the republic equivalent for the bounty hunter class and should hold similar skill sets. Smugglers, represented in the movies by Han Solo, look to be more of a stealth/ranged hybrid and would probably try to be hidden or at range and in a close range fight would be destroyed, but I'm just speculating there.

When you think of it in movie terms remember that the characters you play in the game are the main characters of the movie. When you think to yourself can a smuggler really kill a jedi? Ask instead could Han Solo kill a Jedi, perhaps through some sort of trickery or a cunning plan, in a movie where he is the star, remember he did (almost) kill Boba Fett.


edit: http://www.swtor.com/news/article/20090605_002
one of the developers talks about the trooper and near the end talks about this exact issue