Well exactly my point. You either play a game for the experience of the game or for personal achievement. Either way there's a way to cater to everyone.Crono1973 said:
Jimquisition: A Different Kind of Difficulty
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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You know how they show a single image from a video before you actually click it? I saw Megaman and I thought he would discuss Capcom and the huge dick move they pulled with MML3. Eh, well, it was still pretty good.
But I have to agree with a couple of people here. Either I missed the point of the episode or Jim did (Of course the blame goes to me, right?). I am one of those people who complain about SOME games being too easy. And here's why.
Yes, games back then were more challenging because you couldn't save your progress, you had no checkpoints and you had a limited amount of lives and no hopes of obtaining more. Also, very limited weapons. I'm thinking of Adventure Island, if anyone played that game. 8 worlds, few weapons, no checkpoints, good luck. Or if you want something simpler: Mario.
I'm not saying gamers back then were more "HXC BRO!" or anything. I'm just saying that I think that ever since games started reaching all sorts of people (Kids, parents, grandparents?), games have been divided into different categories. You have your easy games (Mario games, etc. I'll get there in a moment!), "hardcore" games (CoD and M rated games, I guess) and anything in between.
Back then, whenever you would buy a game, you didn't have to worry about how hard the game was or how family friendly it was. No, it was just a game. Think about that: a GAME. You didn't see people complaining about the content of the game and stuff. We didn't have GTA. It was just a game; a fantasy computer game with unrealistic plots and goals. Have fun with it. Battletoads could be just as equally challenging and family friendly as Ninja Gaiden.
But now that we've got kids and the Wii and games like...Brain Academy and...Wii Sports and stuff, things have been, for the lack of a better term, dumbed down a bit. No, I'm not saying those games suck. I'm just saying that games such as those are meant to hold your hand and guide you through the game, patiently patting your back and waiting for you to reach the end of the level. Yes, even a 5 year old could play with no effort at all. That is, undeniably, an easy game. So compared to NES games, where you'd be tossed into the game, no tutorials, no choosing difficulty and no mercy, you can see the difference clearly.
I'm not touching the Death penalty at all, if you notice. I agree; if death is missing from a game, it doesn't meant it's a 'wuss' game or whatever. A more simple example would be racing games like Gran Turismo. There's no death or explosions. And as a matter of fact, you can progress through the game without winning every single race. But there's that thing about winning every race! That's the challenge and the attraction.
On the other hand, give a 5 year old a copy of GT and they'll probably die of boredom. it's just too complicated/convoluted for a kid. Would a kid be able to play it and beat it, maybe? Yes, but I doubt it would be a game that you would want to give to a kid. Between giving an average kid a copy of GT or Donkey Kong, which one would you choose?
So personally, it does bother me that some games are usually toned down for everyone to understand. I don't expect to see fiery explosions, blood and gore all over the place. One of my favorite games ever is Kirby Super Star for the SNES. That game was challenging for many of the reasons Jim mentioned. But it seems the new gen. of games has the same qualities but they've made them easier to play. I don't want something all "HXC YO!" just because I'm selfish, but it would be nice if the new gen. of gamers can handle what we handled back then. You know, just for kicks. They're certainly more exposed to games than we were.
It just bothers me to see a kid show off by saying he finished Sonic Unleashed in one day and he's the 'best gamer in the world' when they don't really know/have encountered a real challenging game. Yeah, I've seen it happen. Tons of times too.
But I digress. So I'll stop now.
But I have to agree with a couple of people here. Either I missed the point of the episode or Jim did (Of course the blame goes to me, right?). I am one of those people who complain about SOME games being too easy. And here's why.
Yes, games back then were more challenging because you couldn't save your progress, you had no checkpoints and you had a limited amount of lives and no hopes of obtaining more. Also, very limited weapons. I'm thinking of Adventure Island, if anyone played that game. 8 worlds, few weapons, no checkpoints, good luck. Or if you want something simpler: Mario.
I'm not saying gamers back then were more "HXC BRO!" or anything. I'm just saying that I think that ever since games started reaching all sorts of people (Kids, parents, grandparents?), games have been divided into different categories. You have your easy games (Mario games, etc. I'll get there in a moment!), "hardcore" games (CoD and M rated games, I guess) and anything in between.
Back then, whenever you would buy a game, you didn't have to worry about how hard the game was or how family friendly it was. No, it was just a game. Think about that: a GAME. You didn't see people complaining about the content of the game and stuff. We didn't have GTA. It was just a game; a fantasy computer game with unrealistic plots and goals. Have fun with it. Battletoads could be just as equally challenging and family friendly as Ninja Gaiden.
But now that we've got kids and the Wii and games like...Brain Academy and...Wii Sports and stuff, things have been, for the lack of a better term, dumbed down a bit. No, I'm not saying those games suck. I'm just saying that games such as those are meant to hold your hand and guide you through the game, patiently patting your back and waiting for you to reach the end of the level. Yes, even a 5 year old could play with no effort at all. That is, undeniably, an easy game. So compared to NES games, where you'd be tossed into the game, no tutorials, no choosing difficulty and no mercy, you can see the difference clearly.
I'm not touching the Death penalty at all, if you notice. I agree; if death is missing from a game, it doesn't meant it's a 'wuss' game or whatever. A more simple example would be racing games like Gran Turismo. There's no death or explosions. And as a matter of fact, you can progress through the game without winning every single race. But there's that thing about winning every race! That's the challenge and the attraction.
On the other hand, give a 5 year old a copy of GT and they'll probably die of boredom. it's just too complicated/convoluted for a kid. Would a kid be able to play it and beat it, maybe? Yes, but I doubt it would be a game that you would want to give to a kid. Between giving an average kid a copy of GT or Donkey Kong, which one would you choose?
So personally, it does bother me that some games are usually toned down for everyone to understand. I don't expect to see fiery explosions, blood and gore all over the place. One of my favorite games ever is Kirby Super Star for the SNES. That game was challenging for many of the reasons Jim mentioned. But it seems the new gen. of games has the same qualities but they've made them easier to play. I don't want something all "HXC YO!" just because I'm selfish, but it would be nice if the new gen. of gamers can handle what we handled back then. You know, just for kicks. They're certainly more exposed to games than we were.
It just bothers me to see a kid show off by saying he finished Sonic Unleashed in one day and he's the 'best gamer in the world' when they don't really know/have encountered a real challenging game. Yeah, I've seen it happen. Tons of times too.
But I digress. So I'll stop now.
Real difficulty has to exclude people.
Getting gold medals in kirby's epic yarn isn't hard.
Might take a few tries, but most people can do it.
Take a fighting game as an example.
Most people can complete them. Yes, even on the highest difficulty.
(Although Shao Khan is a F****** cheap *****)
That's not difficult because 90% of players can make it through that gate.
Compare that to winning the Evolution tournament.
There's one winner per year.
So, most people will never, ever, get top 32 .. let alone win it.
That's difficult because it excludes just about everybody.
Getting gold medals in kirby's epic yarn isn't hard.
Might take a few tries, but most people can do it.
Take a fighting game as an example.
Most people can complete them. Yes, even on the highest difficulty.
(Although Shao Khan is a F****** cheap *****)
That's not difficult because 90% of players can make it through that gate.
Compare that to winning the Evolution tournament.
There's one winner per year.
So, most people will never, ever, get top 32 .. let alone win it.
That's difficult because it excludes just about everybody.
Finally! I've been waiting ages for one of the big escapist folks to bring this up! This is why I loved LittleBigPlanet and LocoRoco. The former had tons of bonus areas for rewards, /and/ rewarded you for beating each level without dying. Anyone who's aced the bunker can account for the fact that it can get really hard. The latter was insanely easy to beat (I pretty much never got a game over in it) but had a lot of fruit that made your LocoRocos multiply hidden around each level, and the ultimate goal was to beat each level with 20 of them (all fruit without losing any of them.) These are two of my favorite games of all time, and they provided a great challenge.
Most of all, I think we need more of these because it provides a serious bridge between the casual and the hardcore audience. The casual players get into the games because they're not tough, and when they really get into them, they start taking on the challenges. Sure, they might give up on some of them, but as they get more skilled and more dedicated to the games they love, they start undertaking the challenges more and more, and learning to love it. Thus, a hardcore gamer is made.
In reality, I think we've all come across these. The old days had Crash Bandicoot and Spyro, after all, which are epic examples. I'd imagine 100%-completion-bonus games are sort of the gateway drugs for casual->hardcore gamers. I certainly know that I never tried to undertake a megaman game when I was a kid.
Edit: Except for Megaman Legends, but that was kind of different, and even that I didn't get very far into.
Most of all, I think we need more of these because it provides a serious bridge between the casual and the hardcore audience. The casual players get into the games because they're not tough, and when they really get into them, they start taking on the challenges. Sure, they might give up on some of them, but as they get more skilled and more dedicated to the games they love, they start undertaking the challenges more and more, and learning to love it. Thus, a hardcore gamer is made.
In reality, I think we've all come across these. The old days had Crash Bandicoot and Spyro, after all, which are epic examples. I'd imagine 100%-completion-bonus games are sort of the gateway drugs for casual->hardcore gamers. I certainly know that I never tried to undertake a megaman game when I was a kid.
Edit: Except for Megaman Legends, but that was kind of different, and even that I didn't get very far into.
The incentive of some weird medal doesn't motivate anyone. I could also set up the rule that i can only jump a certain number of times in Super Mario and play accordingly. Death is used to withhold content from the player and thus frustrate him. You might play Kirby's Epic Yarn and try to get every collectible or whatever, but you will never experience the frustration of content being unattainable, because you did not collect everything. Therefore it will take a rare breed of person/hoarder to actually take the incentive seriously. The payoff is simply too small.
i've noticed a lot of you guys are sayng Jim's mising the point because what you call dificult games alsow have what he's talking about... wel gues what? you're mising the poit! games are now for everyone not just for hardcore gamers and that's a good thing... and when I say everyone Include the hardcore gamers (in case you aren't used to be included)... plus no one's stoping you from playng old "hardcore" games... I curentley only play games on the NES and some Warcraft 3(I am incapable of quiting warcraft 3... I suck at it though)
Great show again. I still marvel at the awesomeness of Kiby Epic yarns graphic style.
4:30 scariest rendition of Kirby. Ever.
Or is it an angry ballsack with eyes?
4:30 scariest rendition of Kirby. Ever.
Or is it an angry ballsack with eyes?
Love your trolling, also that metajoke you did by drinking. :> So anyway, yeah.. you're pretty much on the mark, however many gamers like to point out that 100% completion isn't necessary (I'm looking at you Yahtzee Sheeple). However you can still balance it a bit: Bayonetta and DMC did this as well and still had some quite hard moments.Anyway, keep up the good work and don't move away from The Escapist, would hate to see you on Youtube again :<
?dith: WoW did the same thing recently with hardmodes, and it wasn't well received. So yeah, mostly just little kids whining for forced difficulty, not real difficulty.
?dith: WoW did the same thing recently with hardmodes, and it wasn't well received. So yeah, mostly just little kids whining for forced difficulty, not real difficulty.
Excellent points.
I still find his quips to be crass, and his drawings to be of an insultingly low quality.
I still find his quips to be crass, and his drawings to be of an insultingly low quality.
Interesting take on difficulty there. It's amazing how much we use death and health as the sole measure of success. Super Metroid has both mortality, collection and time as part of the challenge. You could go through the game slowly, collecting 100% items, but have no peek under Samus' suit. Missing all the items got you to see her for a second, but a bad percentage. The ultimate challenge was getting everything in under 3 hours.
On a side note, loved the humour this episode, Jim.
On a side note, loved the humour this episode, Jim.
Well not all people are like that but if I play Ninja Gaiden or Megaman or a game on the hardest setting I expect the game to spank me hard. That is the point of the harder settings and yes some games have become easier and taken away that challenge. Even Halo 3 is a joke compared to other Halos.CM156 said:
Now this may sound odd but while I probably died more in Halo 3 in certain levels than others in the series I felt this was more due to design than the actual difficulty. Not that didn't add a bit of challenge to work it out. Some bits on Legendary I would blaze through without dying and go through several checkpoints easily then there would be one place where I would just die constantly. This seems to be the same for CoD series at the moment.
I think the difficulty caused by design is quite common in some games, sonic games in 3D involved a lot of dying in places because of glitches when the rest of the level was easy. I agree though Halo and CoD do have problems too but it's only when people exploit them online that it becomes a problem, for single player atleast it for the most part is up to you how you play.Glademaster said:
Well multiplayer is a whole different beast when it comes to balance but I think in single players there needs to be a steadily increasing difficulty rather than easy, medium, child's play, brick wall, hard, easy, the AI is cheating. DOA4 is a good example of this.lostlevel said:
This is just flat-out untrue. Plenty of people are saying ?I want the core experience to be a challenge?.Jennacide said:
If I have to bar myself from certain tactics, mod the game, and set arbitrary restrictions for myself, then I'm doing the work of the game designer. I?m not just playing the game anymore, I?m making design decisions and playtesting them.Jennacide said:
Quite frankly, I probably don?t care enough about your game to do that. Jim is actually engaging in a common fanboy fallacy here- ?You don?t like my favorite game/movie/comic book? Well, you need to work harder at liking it!?. No, I don?t. I can just move on to something else that I do enjoy.
