Jimquisition: A Game By Any Other Name

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Scrustle

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silverdragon9 said:
i don't get what you were trying to say about prey 2.
I think it's that even though it has almost nothing to do with the first game they are giving it the Prey name so people won't be worried about buying a brand new IP that might suck. It's the same attitude that publishers had with the Syndicate and XCOM reboots, except perhaps a bit misguided. Prey doesn't have a long legacy and devoted fanbase like those old franchises do, but I guess they thought having it belong to any old franchise makes it less risky than giving it a brand new name.
 

mirage202

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All I personally have to say on this entire topic is: Command & Conquer 4.

Perhaps the haters of this particular Silent Hill though, haven't quite grasped the meaning of "spin-off".
 

Elyxard

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I don't know. As a quasi-graphic designer, I have to partially disagree with this.

Branding and customer perceptions are a big deal. A series that sells itself as a horror franchise has no business selling a title in that franchise that removes the horror. That's just business suicide and false advertising. Like most people, I buy Silent Hills (not anymore) for the horror, not the hack and slash.

While the name doesn't change how good or bad a game is, it's the publishers own fault if a game fails or does poorly because of that backlash of perception. If a series changes it's course and nature in a significant way, it deserves a new name to allow new perceptions to be built.

Of course there are exceptions like Wind Waker, but that's still the same Zelda we're all used to if you just look at its underlining mechanics.
 

esperandote

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I dissagree wholeheartedly

1. We don't think a game's gonna be bad because of the name, we think the series is going to affected because of the game
2. Changing a game genre is NOT a minor change, making a cell shaded Legend of Zelda is not the same as changing a games genre, cell shaded LoZ is still an adventure game (or whatever it is). Making SH an MRPG is like making Street Fighter V a racing game or Madden 13 a point and click game. I gave SH Shattered a chance and liked it even if they removed fighting from it.
3. As you/he mentioned the option we currently have for playing Silent Hill sucks donkey ass. So new gamers technically aren't able to play the good versions.
4. As someone already mentioned franchises are there for fans to know what to expect.

Guess I'm a nazi.
 

Vausch

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MB202 said:
You know what video this reminds me of? Metroid: Other M. It's not a spin-off, and it's a disgrace to everything previously established about the Metroid series.
I think the difference between MOM (Ohhhh NOW I see what they did there) and Book of Memories is that Metroid: Other M is trying to be a canonical story and fit in within the overall narrative of the Metroid world whereas Book of Memories is more like an in-name-only stand alone spinoff that might have some fun puzzles but in the end be some generic dungeon crawler you could have replaced any of the monsters with Diablo demons and you'd be none the wiser.

All this talk of spinoffs and name mixing is making me wonder why the Mortal Kombat developers didn't add Pyramid Head to the roster, he would have been more fun than Freddy!
 

Lunar Templar

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Gizmo1990 said:
the developer that has DmC is Ninja Theory, not Team Ninja, though both are, or where, run by douche bags (last i heard Team Ninja got rid of theirs)

Jim Sterling said:
hi, Jim, lemme level with you.

its not the design of Dante that pisses me off about DmC, its the people developing it, the redesign sucks with out question, but i can get over that, or could, if Ninja Theory hadn't been utter dicks about the fan back lash they should have known was coming. and because its a Devil May Cry game the fact the frame rate was cut from 60 to 30 IS a big concern for me, that, and the sudden need for Dante, as well as the walls, to swear now, seems childlish.

yes, I'm aware of the irony there, given Devil May Cry has always been tongue and cheek or just campy (the scene where he gets Lucifer in DMC4 is one of the funniest things in the series) which is another valid concern, this new Dante doesn't seen to have a sense of humor, which was a big part of the original Dante's charm.

and that's with out getting into Ninja Theory's lack luster record

so there are valid reasons to be concerned, but I'll agree with you on one thing, any one still saying it'll suck JUST because Dante looks different, if a retard in need of a helmet
 

direkiller

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I don't outright dismiss a game based on it being a completly diffent game with the same name.

I do tend to be more sceptical about it because far too often they have tried selling a shitty game under a good title simply to pull more sales out of it.
 

Trooper Nosage

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I have a weird question on a similar vein to what the video covered. Here is the context for it: I loved Dragon Age Origins, was really hyped for Dragon Age 2, and was let down in the playing of it. I went in with high expectations rather than reservations, and found that I did not enjoy the game as much as I had the first one. The weird thing is they "fixed" many of the underlying issues of the first game. I played them both on the 360, and admittedly the mechanical transition from a PC based tactical RPG to a console made much of the control clunky, and the originals brown=realism design aesthetics was, lets just say a bit bland. Ugly armor and all that aside, I was expecting them to refine all that for the sequel.

Instead I'd say they went the Dead Space 3 route and homogenized it rather than expand on what made it unique. But here is the thing, I was a good game. Not great, not unique but flawed like the first one, but well done and workmanlike, a solid effort. Jettison the baggage and expectation of the Dragon Age moniker and I would have thoroughly enjoyed it. Hell, offer it as a spin-off rather than a sequel and I probably would have embraced it. But I felt exhausted when I finished it, disappointed and let down. I never bought any of the DLC, and traded it in. Hell, I now own the Ultimate Edition of DA:O on both PC and 360 and replay them all the time, comparing and contrasting what I like about each, but I never have the inclination to revisit Hawke and company.

I love Fallout 3, played the originals and found that they captured what the game was about really well even with the transition to first person. But here is the thing, fallout was always sold on the humor, the world and your interactions with people. A game like Dragon Age Origins was sold on the mechanics, a return to the "old-school" days of isometric dungeon crawlers with expansive stories and epic battles. At least, that's how they marketed it to me. I went in not caring who I was fighting but how, and they sucked me in and towed me along with their great storytelling and characterization.

Here is the question then. Can a name be a detriment when a game departs from it's core focus? If the focus is the world, then can the mechanics change and it still be the same shared space, or conversely if the mechanics are the focus, like with a real time strategy game or claustrophobic survival horror, how far can a developer stray before it stops feeling like game belongs to the name?

Stuff like this makes me wonder how the publisher/Developer/Consumer expectations interact. To give an example, I was really interested in the idea of an Elder Scrolls MMO because my expectations of a game that bears the Elder Scrolls title is one of a classless, open exploration game. I could care less about the story, to me TES games are about freedom, and I was looking forward to seeing how they implement that. I still have Redguard and Battlemage, I've seen their experiments in the past how they've diverged from the core series. I was very disappointed when I read that they are doing a bog-standard class based WoW style MMORPG, and all the big hype was how it interacted with "the Lore" and the different factions and whatnot. To me that wasn't representative of what I think of when I hear the Elder Scrolls name.

But if I were to hear that they are doing a Mass Effect fist-person multiplayer shooter? That wouldn't bother me, because I think of storyline and the shared world. Hell I don't even play multiplayer shooters and I might pick that up, just to see how they fit it into the world and setting they have built. I might be a bit peeved if it was called Mass Effect 4, but as a side project, I think the core engagement could still be there because when I hear Mass Effect I hear story not mechanics in my head. I also block out the last 15 minutes of the last one, but that's beside the point.

Sorry for the wall of text, great episode.
 

direkiller

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girzwald said:
tigermilk said:
"Like a paedophile or a BP executive"

Loving the fact I had to sit through a 30 second advert for BP (on mute obviously) before watching the video.
Get it. Like a pro. And a boss.
you might want to edit that before you get a warning
 

Mysnomer

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Hey, Jim, is that another one of your MS Paint abominations at 3:31? I've never heard of that game, and I'm a pretty big DMC fan. Anyway, it looks awful, but that's what the MS Paintjobs are all about I guess, so good work.

As for DmC, I think there are a lot of legitimate reasons to be concerned about the game, but I want to bring up one thing: If it's a good game, that will be it's greatest failing. Because in the end, if the game was good, Capcom wouldn't have had to reboot DMC for it, presenting this as the new definitive version. They could have just as easily called DmC Gaiden and made up new characters for it, and the core of the game would have been fine. As much as I love DMC, it's not like the world and timeline is so fleshed out that there's no room to slide a sidestory or two in (or six, 'cause, you know, Capcom >__>). So if the game is great and breaks all expectations, all the flak they took will have been for naught. If the game is mediocre has middling sales, mostly likely buoyed by the brand, then their marketing worked, but to what end? It's still middling sales. You can't market DMC (a hardcore franchise) like it was CoD (a casual franchise if there ever were one). Eh, I'm getting into rambling territory, so I'll close on that. Just remember that while a lot of people are up in arms about how "Dante looks like a twink", they are just victims of their own ineptitude, unable to analyze and quantify their gut feelings that warn them this game will not be good. Meaning, they may have legitimate complaints, but can't voice them, so they fall back on childish insults and general nit-picking.
 

SilverBullets000

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When it comes to games, gamers often expect their gameplay to be unchanged or updated as opposed to completely changed into something different.

Games like Wind Waker are okay because the only thing they really change are aesthetics. Link still looks like Link and the enemies still feel like Zelda enemies, despite being stylized. Yes, the game did get backlash, but upon release the backlash died down because it was a good game and the gameplay was unchanged.

Then you have games like Nuts and Bolts. Because it had driving as its core mechanic, it got a lot of hate. Does that make it a bad game? No, not at all. However, platforming fans aren't necessarily racing fans, so changing it that way feels like abandonment of what made the games good to them in the first place.

DMC is making fans antsy because if the changes are popular or a success, then the chances of them going back to the old Dante are slim. Yes, the gameplay looks unchanged, but the main character is no longer the character that they liked.

Really, it's all perspective. What you want to happen with games is not necessarily what others want to happen to them. Some prefer gameplay change while others would just like different aesthetics. However, most just would rather them try to make a sequal that stays the same, both in gameplay and aesthetics, because we want more of what made the last game good.
 

Rad Party God

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Personally, I can't wait for DMC if I'm going to be able to slice and dice thousands of demons with over the top swords and guns, I'll give the new Dante the benefit of the doubt.

As for Silent Hill... well, I don't have anything against a spin off, heck, I still think that Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story is one of the best and most hilarious RPGs I've ever played in my life, but I have to agree that Silent Hill (the main series) needs to put to rest for a good while.

Great arguments as always Jim. Godwin's Law bless you.
 

Tohron

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The arguments in the video are reasonable, but I think a big reason for the hate these thing receive is a by-product of publisher's heavy preference for sequels over new IP, to the point where they'll take a new game idea and just stick an established brand name (even when it doesn't really fit) on rather than taking the "more risky" course and making it a new IP.

And there is a motivation for older fans to oppose these franchise swaps, because if the new version does succeed, odds are significant they'll never see another successor to the originals.
 

theultimateend

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I'm more annoyed when bad games get an entirely unrelated name slapped on to them to push units and try to break even on cost.

There are a lot of games in the last decade who could have literally had any name but they were named after popular series X because it would push units before reviews hit.

That was the hope with that new X-Com game. When they originally announced it it appeared that it shared almost nothing at all with the original series, not even content. If your entire universe is different, if the genre is different, and if there is literally no way to tie the two (besides aliens, which really would connect X-Com and Halo just as easily) why even call it X-Com?

Basically its like counterfeit clothing.

Fake Designer clothing to try and sell on the name.

It doesn't make me angry, its more disappointing than anything. As the video seemed to hint, sell a game by making a good game.
 

Delfador

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While I agree that developers ought to reserve the right to create spin-offs of their games--and that those spin-offs are often enough worthwhile experiences--one key point this episode seems to be making is that *names don't matter*. On this point, I disagree. Names do matter, not in the way Jim has pointed out in his episode, but in a broader, more profound way.

Names are like cover art; they serve, in my opinion, to demonstrate to potential customers the overall level of work that went into a game at a glance. "Halo" is a good, well-thought-out name. It's highly relevant to the series, and is, incidentally, easy to remember and say. "Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning" is not a good name. As a title it's clumsy, with unclear pronunciation as well as a subtitle, which I find irritating on a first game. It's highly specific, wordy name also says to me that it as a game simply isn't a big deal. Games with low-quality names or sloppy cover art (e.g., Uncharted 3's cover art, which is plainly inferior Uncharted 2's) immediately make me less likely to want to buy that game. Excellence or a lack thereof in packaging--and yes, a name is a form of packaging--seems to me to be representative of a studio's attention to detail and the overall amount of care that has gone into a given product. Games without such quality convey to me that the project was thoughtless or rushed. I, too, am a Killzone fan, but my first look at KZ3's cluttered (and in my opinion boring) cover didn't bring up my expectations for the game.

So I would have to say that names *are* crucially important, because consumers will to some degree judge a book by its cover, but they almost certainly are not in the sense to which this episode is primarily referring.
 

Doom972

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I was hoping he'll also talk about situations where a developer wants to make a certain new game and then a publisher, out of business considerations, decides to change it so it would fit into an existing franchise. The result is usually a game that's very different to what fans of the franchise like expect from such a game, and the fans get angry.
 

bigfatcarp93

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Huh, I really thought the Fifth Element sequel would be longer.

Anyway, great Jimquisition as usual. Is that really surprising at this point?
 

RandV80

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Yeah I can feel sorry for Fallout fans. The old hardcore turn-based isometric CRPG's are a long forgotten and neglected genre, so to see one of your cherished franchise get claimed and converted into a FPS has got to hurt. Although at the very least if anyone was to do it they are also very lucky that it was Bethesda who got the job, as they know how to make great games. Devil May Cry on the other hand, there's plenty of those types of games out there and it's still being made in that same genre. Complaints here are pretty stupid.