Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

[Piorn]

I just find it weird how people start screaming "Sexism" just because they feel a bit uneasy.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." (Hanlon's Razor)
It's ok to find things tasteless, everyone has limits, but acting inconsiderate doesn't immediately turn you "sexist".

Still, it IS an important topic to talk about, and should be discussed reasonably.

 

[Rastrelly]

What a crap in example department. Most "ism" outrages come from putting a label "sexism" on everything even remotely near to, I don't even know how to call it, "making a woman something bad-ish". Say, Skyrim! The quest mentioned in the overview. While gender equality in Tamriel is far from medieval and obviously much more progressive then in our modern world, you claim a usual blackmailing (which could as easily be applied to anyone who claims him or herself as monogamic) as a form of sexism. What a bullcrap! The game would be sexist if females OR males were obviously inferior to opposite sex in every way, or if the game would propagate such approach. Blaming in any form of sexism the game which depicts a fucking much more advanced in this aspect society is downright and plain stupid. As it comes to 80+% of such accusations.

Some of you people -game journalists and bloggers especially - seem to enjoy seeking for those -ism to point out your moral superiority and progressiveness. But it's nothing more than clowning.

 

[Harker067]

thank FSM for jim.

 

[GAunderrated]

People don't seem to understand that not all stories are moral messages. Skyrim has a mission to abduct a priest into a cannibal cult and EAT him, this is not a "pro-cannibal" message. Like-wise the "slut-shaming" quest in skyrim is not "pro slut-shaming". Skyrim is a true RPG in that it gives you the option to be entirely unethical but lets you stop and do something else should you decide to.

Skyrim is a good example of one of the more gender equalised games on the market. The women (in the unmodded versions) are hardly sexualised and you find people of different genders in most professions.

BTW I'm not telling anyone to shut up, I'm disagreeing with you.

I always find that logical comments never get quoted while the more "troll-like" comments dictate the pace of discussions and normally derail the topic. I just wanted to quote you because I found your post to be quite logical and I would like to hear someone's counter-argument on this stance.

 

[RJ Dalton]

Consider this: what if the game knows about it's own whateverist content because it intentionally built that into the setting and is using that aspect of its setting to explore the issue in it's own way? I think it's a bad idea to attempt to make games so clean and free of anything that might be considered offensive or not politically correct, because then you're on the same page as the people who want to censor Huck Finn because of its racist content. These are issues that need addressing and exploring and we can't do that as long as we're avoiding the issue.

 

[Pyrian]

Please tell me in a civil and logic manner why Lara being a victim of rape...

Please don't bring up "civil and logic[sic] manner" if you're going to attempt to start a discussion with a blatant falsehood. We can't have a civil and logical discussion if you're lying from the get-go.

 

[Something Amyss]

Jim, I know that as an example of shining hope for humanity, you assume better of people than I do, but I think it's important to accept that racism, sexism and homophobia are rampant in gamers. While it may be some people are afraid their pastimes will be taken away, but there are a lot of people who will actively harass and discriminate based on race, genitals, or whose genitals you are attracted to.

I'm not sure of the actual ratio, but I would certainly call this a major reason people try and shut down debate on sexism and the like. Remember, we have guys who think it's okay to sniff their teammates and be basic creepers or worse.

Women harassed at cons tend to get the whole "she was asking for it!" treatment, and there are numerous reports of security being crap at these events. People ask why gays feel they need a safe space, but I'm surprised any woman dares show up at cons these days at all either.

No, it's easier to say the person who is bringing it up is a bad person, because the character of the actual gamer is quite often at issue.

So, you are telling me that no-one wants to take my games away from me?
Can I finally come out of the basement then?
Or will all these "isms" suddenly unfold and steal my library?

It's a trap! Jim is working with the isms! In fact, you can't spell "Jimquisition" without ISM!

I am, whoever, a bit weary of people crying out that "OMG EVERYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE SO NOTHING EVER IS OFFENSIVE EVER AGAIN ANYMORE", because if we go that far, we will be sitting in front of blank screens, lest we offend the colour-blind who can't play, listening to nothing, so as not to offend the deaf.

Okay, who the hell is actually saying that? Seriously.

I would argue that trying to bury those little things, hiding them, and acting sensitive whenever they're brought up can only HELP those trying to undermine it. Accepting them, and using them as jumping points for rational and provocative discussion, will only solidify gaming's status.

Indeed, denying the existence just makes us look...Well, bad. It could be bad for a bunch of reasons; we could be childish, stupid, naive, combative/petulant, addicted or any of a number of other states. It comes off as "LALALALALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Though gamers can hear the criticism, and take it poorly.

 

[bunji]

Regarding that torse; if that had been a male torso, there would have been no problem whatsoever. That strikes me as sexist too, but hey, aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

What I mean is, what gets me with all the honking about sexism is that no one ever gives any time to the idea that maybe, just maybe, sexism goes both ways. Just think about how many males you kill playing through cod, and I think no females.

Just saying there's two sides of every coin, and Im fucking tired of one side being portrayed as the good defenders of morality and divine wisdom, while just voicing that "hey, maybe you aren't the only victims, just maybe" gets you branded as a mysoginist.

Which I am sure to be for this.

 

[Something Amyss]

Consider this: what if the game knows about it's own whateverist content because it intentionally built that into the setting and is using that aspect of its setting to explore the issue in it's own way? I think it's a bad idea to attempt to make games so clean and free of anything that might be considered offensive or not politically correct, because then you're on the same page as the people who want to censor Huck Finn because of its racist content. These are issues that need addressing and exploring and we can't do that as long as we're avoiding the issue.

Of course, nobody here is talking about making games free and clear of all offensive content. Except the people clubbing that strawman into the ground. Similarly, the only people who seem to bring up "political correctness" are the ones trying to demonise it.

On that note, we really don't have games that equate to Huck Finn in terms of actual content. When a game is racist, it's generally just racist. And you know the funny thing? The people who bring it up most are gamers, the same gamers who don't call for the banning of such games.

 

[Something Amyss]

aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.

 

[PunkRex]

I really don't think the Lara Croft trailer was sexist, the Hitman one on the other hand I find incredibly so, it was bloody stupid and don't get me started on that Dead Island Riptide... thing...

Out of interest, any animal lovers out there? I find alot of games over look the idea of animal cruelty. I understand alot of the time its in line with the setting, dark fantasy, wild west, etc but often its just something you can do and it upsets me. Hell I love Pokemon but the game trys so desperatly to dance around the subject, I know its for kids but they seemed to address it in Black & White only to turn around at the last minute and go 'lolz, world domination', I was pissed.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Well said. It isn't as if these "isms" don't exist in other forms of media, entertainment, literature, art, pretty much everything our species creates for each other. The difference is, we study these things, we talk about them, we take a look at them to learn how people think and what they put forward to others. That's where I'd like to see games get one day, and that's something I'm working on and I know I'm not alone in that pursuit. In the mean time though, it would really help if the "community" could let go of the "from my cold dead hands" mentality and realize that discussion can be productive it doesn't always have to be a grudge match vs. "popular" thinking that's trying to extinguish them and their hobby.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

You'd think the point this video makes would be obvious. Regardless, what needs to be said needs to be said. So yay to you, Jim, for saying it.

One thing left me wondering though. When Jim says he doesn't support Earthworm Jim because of the backwardness of its creator, what did he mean by that?

EDIT: never mind, a quick search answered my question.

 

[geizr]

So, in other words, and yet again for the umpteenth time, the message is gamers need to grow up and get over themselves? (Don't forget, the game developers come from the same pool of people as the gamers themselves.)

 

[bunji]

aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.

Do you look like Kratos? Or Dante? Or Phoenix? Or any other of the idealized male figures that are the exclusive body-type for male main characters in games? Because it makes total sense for cratos to be bare-chested right?

When it comes to sexualization, like tits and butts, of course there are more women presented as eye candy. But if you really think thats the worst kind of sexism you need to have your moral compass readjusted. Having some women wear revealing clothing is, I submit, a pathetic counter-weight to the trillions of times more male enemies that are killed.

 

[ash12181987]

Excellent points Jim.

I will say, that telling people to be reasonable, and try to meet opinions halfway, is like telling people to believe in unicorns: Largely impossible. This is BECAUSE of just what you said: The nature of the society we live in, you either have to be all for one side or the other, having ambiguous opinions is WRONG! Why? because only a traitor would have the gall to suggest that you could like and not like something, that is just what people who don't like things -Say- in order to find common ground, when arguing with other people. At least that is how it comes across most of the time, funnily enough.

 

[Rastrelly]

aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.

Will the females be horribly murdered then? We already have Anders and that pilot guy from ME. Now it's the others side turn.

You see, the games are developed for male audience - mostly. Because sad statiistics are sad. So if you'll bring more girls to hardcore sector - be sure, you'll see results immediately. For now the female-oriented segment is rather narrow but it actually exists.

PS And to answer my own question: yes, there are tons of female opponents in TES games and lots of other RPGs. But this only makes "sexist"-screamers less credible.

 

[spartandude]

aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.

Do you look like Kratos? Or Dante? Or Phoenix? Or any other of the idealized male figures that are the exclusive body-type for male main characters in games? Because it makes total sense for cratos to be bare-chested right?

while you do have a point in that theres no good reason for kratos being bare chested and showing off his muscles, but if you think that he is sexualised then you are so wrong. yh sure there are probably a few women out there who think hes sexy but not many. its mostly done for a male power fantasy in those cases

OT i think Jim also hit on something that relates to making arguments in general. when he talks about admitting things are wrong in games but still likeing said game. i see so many people who think that because an opponant in argument conceded defeat about one thing that means they lost but it doesnt.

 

[bunji]

aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.

Do you look like Kratos? Or Dante? Or Phoenix? Or any other of the idealized male figures that are the exclusive body-type for male main characters in games? Because it makes total sense for cratos to be bare-chested right?

while you do have a point in that theres no good reason for kratos being bare chested and showing off his muscles, but if you think that he is sexualised then you are so wrong. yh sure there are probably a few women out there who think hes sexy but not many. its mostly done for a male power fantasy in those cases

OT i think Jim also hit on something that relates to making arguments in general. when he talks about admitting things are wrong in games but still likeing said game. i see so many people who think that because an opponant in argument conceded defeat about one thing that means they lost but it doesnt.

How come when men are portrayed half naked and traditionally handsome its "male power fantasy" and when women are portrayed half naked and traditionally beautifull its "objectifying"? Why can't that be a female powerfantasy?

 

[wizzy555]

aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.

Do you look like Kratos? Or Dante? Or Phoenix? Or any other of the idealized male figures that are the exclusive body-type for male main characters in games? Because it makes total sense for cratos to be bare-chested right?

while you do have a point in that theres no good reason for kratos being bare chested and showing off his muscles, but if you think that he is sexualised then you are so wrong. yh sure there are probably a few women out there who think hes sexy but not many. its mostly done for a male power fantasy in those cases

OT i think Jim also hit on something that relates to making arguments in general. when he talks about admitting things are wrong in games but still likeing said game. i see so many people who think that because an opponant in argument conceded defeat about one thing that means they lost but it doesnt.

Well now you into the morality of the intention of the designer and the morality of the outcome. I actually do think the new Dante is hot (before anyone starts flirting with me I'm not a girl) and I appreciate that even if it wasn't the intention. And there are women who treat Lara Croft as a power fantasy, sexualised or otherwise.

The intention of most games is to make money, does that sully the positive aspects?