Jimquisition: Changing A Game's Ending And Destroying Art

[Agayek]

This video amused me quite a bit. I find the apparent shift in stance on the issue to be hilarious. Kinda makes me wish more people would at least attempt to offer the same level of review into their own take on it. It's good to know people can objectively look at the material and see the valid/salient points though.

 

[Seanfall]

I can see you've thought long and hard on this issue Jim.
Thank-you. There is a difference between art and property and change is not fundamentally good, bad or wrong.

It's actually pretty fucking refreshing for Jim to admit that his initial impressions about the people wanting the ending changed were wrong and that he can even see where they're coming from once he'd LOOKED INTO IT A BIT MORE*

Fair play to you Mr. Sterling.

*Caps'd and bolded on the off chance that Moviebob comes into the thread and gets a clue about the proper attitude to have towards something like this.

He won't. We all know Bob doesn't respect fan outrage unless it's his own.

Oh burn. And yeah I was surprised jim Admitted he hadn't looked into the issue enough. He wasn't admitting he was wrong. And he was right about some of us in the retake movement. And it's refreshing to see another person on the escapist who gets why we're upset and not only doesn't use the 'games are art and can't be changed' but out right puts that to rest with 'art has no rules'. Which it doesn't. I once called him a paid troll....and I was wrong. and I would take that comment back if I could and I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

And no your right bob probably won't comment on this cause unlike Jim, Bob isn't going to look deeper into the issue. Cause he's said his piece and as far as Bob is concerned he's right and everyone else is wrong. Unless it's about Sonic or Mario oh then he cares.

 

[Sylocat]

snip

Why would they lie and throw EA under the bus if that didn't happen?

That's why I said "along the lines of." If not EA, pin it on some other marketing entity.

Or they could call it the "Retake This! DLC" and it just changes the ending to the staff giving you the finger. It's about equally illogical.

That's another thing I'd be tempted to do if I were in BioWare's position, actually.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

I stand by what I said about the tea party and if anyone has a problem with it they can go and find another famous event in American history to cheapen the name of.

 

[Something Amyss]

He won't. We all know Bob doesn't respect fan outrage unless it's his own.

Which is part of why his videos and comments have been so infuriating of late. Considering how hard he rails against stuff he doesn't like, one has to wonder why his disapproval is so outrageous here.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Who would have guessed, Jim is right again.

So we have Jim and MovieBob with polar opposite opinions, what ever happened to Extra Consideration?

Considering Shamus Young and Yahtzee also offered somewhat differing opinions on the ME3 ending, that could have been an excellent 4-way Extra Consideration.

Yeah!
Lets Take Back Extra Consideration!

Maybe if we send The Escapist cupcakes they'll restart the column.

 

[thiosk]

I didn't play ME2 or 3. I don't speak to knowing them. I only know a few of the spoilers about

Spoiler

god emperors and the shutdown of interstellar travel

.

I don't even know whether or not its shit. But heres one thing that stuck in my head:

did they wrap up ME3 this way to ensure that the next games in the "series," which are likely to be made and will not contain shepards or mass effects, could be made essentially without worrying about all the choices of the other two games?

Or did they really just phone it in, in an epic way more amazing than ever done before.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Who would have guessed, Jim is right again.

So we have Jim and MovieBob with polar opposite opinions, what ever happened to Extra Consideration?

I don't think Jim and Moviebob have opinions that are that much at loggerheads. Bob never said that gamers didn't have a right to complain and that the ending wasn't bad, and that Bioware should never change it. He said that a large portion of the RME community are acting like entitled children, and that Bioware shouldn't be forced into doing anything and that Bioware doesn't have to compromise their artistic integrity if they don't want to.

Jim's position is that if Bioware isn't going to stick up for their artistic integrity, for whatever reason, neither should anybody else. If Bioware had made an effort to defend their ending - then most likely Bob and Jim would have been in a similar position.

I don't think that's right at all.
MovieBob was saying that all the bitching and moaning about Mass Effect 3's ending was all childish and entitled.
Jim said that most of that came from people with legitimate grievances.

In this case, Bioware is choosing to alter their ending - whether it's because they think it's terrible as well or see points where they can improve or whether they just want to make their fanbase happy - it's not really an artist violating his own integrity - since they're doing it themselves and hopefully for the purpose of doing something better that maintains their overall objectives for the plot (as opposed to Broken Steel...)

My only thoughts on this - one, is Jim reading my posts - I made an obscure joke in another thread about Thatgamecompany having a bunch of rabid COD:MW fans convincing them to add more terrorists and gunplay into Journey and either Jim made a similar joke by harmonic convergence or he's stealing my material.

And two, as probably the only person who openly LIKES the ending to ME3, I wish people would give it more of a chance. I think people openly hate the ending because they had different expectation, but while the ending could be painted with slightly broader strokes and needs a bit of fine tuning, there's something incredibly interesting from a philosophical and game writing perspective in that ending. It's really quite remarkable, of all the easy bad endings they could have come with, that they chose this one in particular.

Honestly I didn't have any different expectations for the end.
(From the second I heard the words "Plans for a Prothean device" I knew it was going to end with a big-old-Reaper-off-button) Which would have bothered me, just not as much as what they did.

Introducing the "Star child" at the last minute and making him some omnipotent figure in charge of the Reapers was just too much.
But the final Straw was that scene with the Normandy flying away and crash landing on (What I can only assume was supposed to be the Island from Lost)
And the glaring "Mass Relay explosion" plot hole.

It had nothing to do with my expectations.

 

[zeda12123]

I have to hand it to you, Jim. I'm not always a fan but you're pretty spot on here!

 

[Don Savik]

Why do half the drawings on here have penises? It just seems a little juvenile and detracts from the intelligent point being made.

It's called Deranged Art. It's fun/interesting to look at and prevents the show from being a podcast.

And it shouldn't matter at all to be honest. His points don't become any less valid because some people are uncomfortable seeing a badly drawn penis.

 

[bombadilillo]

When Movie Bob whined that the end couldn't be changed and art blah blah blah. All I wondered was how long he would be able to ramble on (entertainingly I'm sure) about which is the best version of Blade Runner.

I think a lot of game writers are taking a second look at this and realizing they were completely misrepresting the situation, probably through ignorance.

 

[mrblakemiller]

Mwah. Thank you, Jim, for getting it, for trying to get it in the first place, for listening to the fans talk about how bad your first episodes were, and for being humble and intelligent enough to change things for the much better. Now, go tell MovieBob to quit doing that "______ Are Weird" voice and stop berating his own audience for not being as cultured and intelligent as him.

 

[darkbshadow]

I am also getting tired of the ME3 threads as well. Yes i didn't like the ending and want a better conclusion to the game but it's been almost a month since the game was released i think it's time to give it a rest for awhile.

Though i do have to say I was kinda upset that Bioware didn't announce a new ending on April Fools day. In where Shepard chooses a fourth option to punch the stupid star child making the station shoot out a rainbow beam turning all the reapers into giant cakes. Shepard proceeds to ride the rainbow down to earth where he finds his crew on a beach drinking beer and eating cake.

 

[Stammer]

Thank you Jim. I actually really appreciated this episode, especially after the last ones. It's not that the ending was "bad", it's just that the ending didn't conclude anything. We don't know what happened to the Reapers, we don't know what happened to Shepard, we don't know what happened to any of his friends and allies.

There's no closure. And after three games invested with this outstanding universe, I think most of the fans just wanted to know what happened. We don't care about a happy ending or even if the ending is good. We just want an ending.

 

[Carlos Storm]

I never thought there would be a day when I had more respect for Jim Sterling than I did for Bob Chipman, well done.

 

[Beautiful End]

Well, although I don't like ME3, I support the idea of re-creating the ending in order to deliver something more appropriate; something the fans were expecting from day one.

You see, we've all played games a-plenty that have shitty endings. I'm thinking of last gen. games, for some reason. And what did we do when a game's ending sucked? We just sat there, crying a little and hoping we won't be sore in the morning because of all the rape we've just been through. Then we would proceed to try and get rid of the game as soon as possible, like a girl trying to get rid of her dirty bed sheets after a passionate night with her boyfriend in her parent's house.

So my first thought when I heard all this was: "Oh, we can do that?", referring to requesting an alternate ending. I suppose as the audience, we are somewhat entitled to ask for a better ending than what we got. I've seen the ending and I gotta say it IS pretty shit. And like Jim said, if BioWare is caving, it means they kinda agree with everyone's opinion.

However! Being BioWare and EA, you know they're gonna re-release the ending...in the shape of DLC. And that pisses me off. "Oh, you want MORE of this? Alright, you got it...but pay up first! Trololo!11!!".

Look, videogames ARE art and in theory, they shouldn't try and change a piece of art, just like you wouldn't ask the Mona Lisa to be re-painted but with different clothing in order to suit our modern needs. This is why people didn't make such a fuss about Harry Potter's ending. But in that case, the ending was very fitting. They got their pseudo-happy ending--nay, their appropriate ending, and everything was fine.

So you see what I'm getting at? BioWare should know more than well what fans were expecting and the direction they wanted to take. However, they chose to ignore the fanbase and go with what they wanted. As an aspiring artist, I know how to cater my audience. I'm not gonna present a very well done illustration to people who love abstract paintings and vice versa. If I'm doing it for the heck of doing it and to please myself, then sure, whatever. But not when I know my works of art will be aimed and looked at by tons of people with a specific taste.

Videogames ARE art, but publishers still need to acknowledged that and learn how to handle that medium.

 

[Eddie the head]

Hmm, cool I like it when someone can admit that they are not always right the first time around.

 

[flames09]

Bio made a great sereis, great game but! THe ending wasn't 'bad' it just left sooo much unexplained and it made all the choices, DLC's and everything in the previous games worthless.

It is not that we dont respect their product, we are just upset that after so much work we put in we don't get some explanation, codex entry or anything to just end it!

IF they do not want to change it fine, but if they do I sure am not going to BUY the 'new' ending, prolly acquire by other means.

 

[Alex Mac]

I don't necessarily thing that consumers are in any true position to make executive decisions about the content of a game. Not in any true, appreciable fashion. Fans should realize that their feedback is not a sacrosanct, binding thing. The failure of this whole fiasco has never truly been on the part of the developers. Even acknowledging that the ending of ME3 is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, I think that fan response and the philosophy behind it has been fundamentally misinformed as to the power they wield as consumers and just exactly what their time and money means.

It certainly gives them the right to criticize. To comment. To analyze. To express satisfaction or dissatisfaction.

I don't think it really entitles them to make claims about what a series "deserves" or even what they "deserve" as purchasers of art/entertainment. Many people want to imply that their previous time and money somehow gives them a creative voice in the game and what should/shouldn't be in it. But that's short sighted, I feel. No consumer or group of consumers literally commissioned BioWare to make the game to their specifications and desires. Failure to meet certain expectations falls much more on the fanbase themselves rather than the developers, I feel.

That said, expressing a certain disappointment is certainly understandable. But very little of this has been done in a general healthy fashion in terms of fostering the proper type of communication channels consumers might have with developers. The tactics employed have been fundamentally dishonest and backhanded, to such an extent that it will likely have a negative effect in the long run in terms of the fan/developer dynamic.

 

[Darkcerb]

I don't necessarily thing that consumers are in any true position to make executive decisions about the content of a game. Not in any true, appreciable fashion. Fans should realize that their feedback is not a sacrosanct, binding thing. The failure of this whole fiasco has never truly been on the part of the developers. Even acknowledging that the ending of ME3 is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, I think that fan response and the philosophy behind it has been fundamentally misinformed as to the power they wield as consumers and just exactly what their time and money means.

It certainly gives them the right to criticize. To comment. To analyze. To express satisfaction or dissatisfaction.

I don't think it really entitles them to make claims about what a series "deserves" or even what they "deserve" as purchasers of art/entertainment. Many people want to imply that their previous time and money somehow gives them a creative voice in the game and what should/shouldn't be in it. But that's short sighted, I feel. No consumer or group of consumers literally commissioned BioWare to make the game to their specifications and desires. Failure to meet certain expectations falls much more on the fanbase themselves rather than the developers, I feel.

That said, expressing a certain disappointment is certainly understandable. But very little of this has been done in a general healthy fashion in terms of fostering the proper type of communication channels consumers might have with developers. The tactics employed have been fundamentally dishonest and backhanded, to such an extent that it will likely have a negative effect in the long run in terms of the fan/developer dynamic.

I'd love to see all this back handed and dishonest methods, and I'm not certain you've seen the ending it comes across as completely backwards to all our actions and the theme's of the series leading up to and during it. By your logic our disappointment is entirely on us, which is true in a way but what exactly are you implying, that we didn't get it?

But you are right it does give us a right to complain and the only consequence of a company not listening to the complaints of it's consumers is losing there money, I don't think they can truly salvage there fan base entirely but I do think they can take this lesson going forward.

And that lesson is don't shoehorn in a deus ex machina (literally) at the last second in a ham fisted attempt at "deep thought provoking art" narrative cohesion, plot and player actions went right out the window in the last 10 mins sins no interactive story should commit and that bioware known for there story telling could commit all three at the end of an epic saga is shocking.