Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[Rooster Cogburn]

So their enjoyment comes at my expense. Are we in agreement on that much?

well, since you've made the exclusion of an option essential to your experience, sure, I mean how could it not.

lol Thank you for following me this far. Believe it or not, most people refuse to. Now see, normally I would say the advantage of opening up the game to more players by adding optional difficulty is worth the loss of some excitement for some players. We all would say that. NORMALLY. But, let's say we just had one game that didn't do that. Wouldn't ONE be alright? And in the case of that ONE game, the developer would be free to supercharge that unique experience. So let's just have ONE game, and do everything in it that we can only do when there is NO adjustable difficulty.

Is that so bad? I mean really, in this market? There aren't many deep or hard AAA games. Is it so bad to have one game that doesn't have an easy mode, especially considering we kind of have something particular in mind? Not all games should be like this, of course. But what about one. Just one game. JUST ONE. One game. ONE.

Is that a crime?

You can also go online and find solutions, help, and tactics. This option is constantly available to you at any given time, yet you do not consider this when you estimate the danger of an opponent in the game, is there a particular reason for this?

Actually that's a fantastic question lol. The gameplay of Dark Souls is designed to facilitate learning. The pattern is, you reach a seemingly impassable obstacle, and then you LEARN how to make it easy for yourself. You learn about the enemy, learn about your character, learn about the mechanics, learn about the world and the environment, and learn about the options available to you. You have to LEARN to proceed. But it is also designed with innovative community features. I can see how other people died and learn from their mistakes. They leave messages to warn me of danger. I can summon them into my world to teach me how to succeed. Guides and forums are a part of this community the designers have intentionally cultivated. We all work together and help each other. That's part of the fun!

If you think Dark Souls is nothing but a game that happens to be hard, then there is absolutely no reason not to put easy mode in it. When you understand WHY it is hard, you begin to understand why this matters.

 

[Korten12]

I read your entire discussion, not that hard to "jump into it".
Like DayDark already replied to you, other assets exist (internet, game manuals) that are still "options" out there; do they detract from your paralyzing fear of the indomitable dragon anymore than an optional ingame cue/guide would that you dont even have to use. That's what doesn't make any sense.

Question for you. If you pay $60 for an MMORPG. Are they obligated to make the content easy for you to see it all? To do all of the dungeons by yourself so you can see the content?

No they aren't. This is no different.

I payed for a $60 Single player semi-open RPG and did not appreciate having to go online to access potential assistance mechanics and felt the soul/back track mechanic as well as the Humanity aspect was flawed. Again, for me, this is not an issue of easy versus hardcore, this is a balance issue that is a valid critical detriment to an outstanding game.
That said, I am confident that FROM Software could think of any number of addons/dlc's/patches tht could increase the accessibiliy of the game without making any fundamental changes to the core of the game itself. There is a lot more being offered here than just Self-aggrandizing by way of self-flagellation.
The MMORPG is one thing, but if they also offered an optional 5$ unlock or assist pack, that add-on wouldnt effect you one fucking iota, so why are you so worried about it.

Your missing the point though, based on your logic, it should easily have everything laid out for you on a platter because it's a video game. Because it's just a video game, like you said. :/

 

[VyceVictus]

I read your entire discussion, not that hard to "jump into it".
Like DayDark already replied to you, other assets exist (internet, game manuals) that are still "options" out there; do they detract from your paralyzing fear of the indomitable dragon anymore than an optional ingame cue/guide would that you dont even have to use. That's what doesn't make any sense.

Question for you. If you pay $60 for an MMORPG. Are they obligated to make the content easy for you to see it all? To do all of the dungeons by yourself so you can see the content?

No they aren't. This is no different.

I payed for a $60 Single player semi-open RPG and did not appreciate having to go online to access potential assistance mechanics and felt the soul/back track mechanic as well as the Humanity aspect was flawed. Again, for me, this is not an issue of easy versus hardcore, this is a balance issue that is a valid critical detriment to an outstanding game.
That said, I am confident that FROM Software could think of any number of addons/dlc's/patches tht could increase the accessibiliy of the game without making any fundamental changes to the core of the game itself. There is a lot more being offered here than just Self-aggrandizing by way of self-flagellation.
The MMORPG is one thing, but if they also offered an optional 5$ unlock or assist pack, that add-on wouldnt effect you one fucking iota, so why are you so worried about it.

Your missing the point though, based on your logic, it should easily have everything laid out for you on a platter because it's a video game. Because it's just a video game, like you said. :/

A flawed game. A terrific, but flawed game.

 

[immortalfrieza]

No, all those aides and assets wont automatically make you a champion, but you have no right to begrudge them for using those assets earnestly to learn the game and challenge you on your level.

No I don't, but I do have the right to smack them over the head when they EXPECT those aides and assets to give them an instant win against me or make things easier for them when I did not have those aides and assets, just because they bought those aides and assets, not because it's impossible for them, but just because they didn't care enough to work as hard as I did.

Just because they used assistance doesnt diminish your own achievements in any way.

Yes it does, by letting others have that assistance and accomplish all the same things I did with far less effort when I got through the obstacles before that assistance was available it makes what I accomplished much less impressive and impact, in other words, yes, it does diminish my achievements.

And going back to your silly triathalon analogy, is someone who who got the assistance of trainers and coaches any less entitled to compete than someone who trained on his own?

Nope, because even if they got a trainer they still have to work just as hard to get good enough to participate and potentially win that Triathlon as I do, having a trainer and coach would still mean that they'd have to work just as hard for it as somebody that doesn't have that, it is a different but no less difficult path to the same end, not an easier or no effort path to the same end like you seem to want there to be. You aren't asking for them to work as hard as I do to win, you are asking for the other guy to just be given a motorcycle when I'm way out in front and about a short ways away from the finish line while he's barely halfway across the track, just because the other guy isn't willing to work as hard as I do.

 

[Korten12]

I read your entire discussion, not that hard to "jump into it".
Like DayDark already replied to you, other assets exist (internet, game manuals) that are still "options" out there; do they detract from your paralyzing fear of the indomitable dragon anymore than an optional ingame cue/guide would that you dont even have to use. That's what doesn't make any sense.

Question for you. If you pay $60 for an MMORPG. Are they obligated to make the content easy for you to see it all? To do all of the dungeons by yourself so you can see the content?

No they aren't. This is no different.

I payed for a $60 Single player semi-open RPG and did not appreciate having to go online to access potential assistance mechanics and felt the soul/back track mechanic as well as the Humanity aspect was flawed. Again, for me, this is not an issue of easy versus hardcore, this is a balance issue that is a valid critical detriment to an outstanding game.
That said, I am confident that FROM Software could think of any number of addons/dlc's/patches tht could increase the accessibiliy of the game without making any fundamental changes to the core of the game itself. There is a lot more being offered here than just Self-aggrandizing by way of self-flagellation.
The MMORPG is one thing, but if they also offered an optional 5$ unlock or assist pack, that add-on wouldnt effect you one fucking iota, so why are you so worried about it.

Your missing the point though, based on your logic, it should easily have everything laid out for you on a platter because it's a video game. Because it's just a video game, like you said. :/

A flawed game. A terrific, but flawed game.

And you ignore the question.

 

[Peithelo]

You can also go online and find solutions, help, and tactics. This option is constantly available to you at any given time, yet you do not consider this when you estimate the danger of an opponent in the game, is there a particular reason for this?

The help the Internet can potentially provide exists outside of the game and Dark Souls or the developers can't be held accountable because of that. An option within the game however is there only because the developers would have placed it there. Still, your experience can strangely enough actually benefit from using any of the wiki sites or interacting with the community. One of the wiki sites is actually mentioned on the back of the Artorias of the Abyss edition's package. This opportunity could be easily abused as well, but in general it has been very beneficial for Dark Souls as an experience.

Or do you mean the online mode in Dark Souls? The game is build around that and any advances of using it are naturally taken into account.

 

[VyceVictus]

No, all those aides and assets wont automatically make you a champion, but you have no right to begrudge them for using those assets earnestly to learn the game and challenge you on your level.

No I don't, but I do have the right to smack them over the head when they EXPECT those aides and assets to give them an instant win against me or make things easier for them when I did not have those aides and assets, just because they bought those aides and assets, not because it's impossible for them, but just because they didn't care enough to work as hard as I did.

Just because they used assistance doesnt diminish your own achievements in any way.

Yes it does, by letting others have that assistance and accomplish all the same things I did with far less effort when I got through the obstacles before that assistance was available it makes what I accomplished much less impressive and impact, in other words, yes, it does diminish my achievements.

And going back to your silly triathalon analogy, is someone who who got the assistance of trainers and coaches any less entitled to compete than someone who trained on his own?

Nope, because even if they got a trainer they still have to work just as hard to get good enough to participate and potentially win that Triathlon as I do, having a trainer and coach would still mean that they'd have to work just as hard for it as somebody that doesn't have that, it is a different but no less difficult path to the same end, not an easier path to the same end. You aren't asking for them to work as hard as I do to win, you are asking for the other guy to just be given a motorcycle when I'm way out in front and about a short ways away from the finish line while he's barely halfway across the track, just because the other guy isn't willing to work as hard as I do.

This isn't work, its a video game. Not competing for a job and something like affirmative action is in play. Your accomplishment IS the completion without the assistance. What they do has NO bearing on that. You succeeded on your own and no one can take that from you, but you have no right to take assists or help modes from them just to make you feel better. They will put in the same amount of time and effort just playing the game, because it is just that, not an exercise, a game.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I read your entire discussion, not that hard to "jump into it".
Like DayDark already replied to you, other assets exist (internet, game manuals) that are still "options" out there; do they detract from your paralyzing fear of the indomitable dragon anymore than an optional ingame cue/guide would that you dont even have to use. That's what doesn't make any sense.

Question for you. If you pay $60 for an MMORPG. Are they obligated to make the content easy for you to see it all? To do all of the dungeons by yourself so you can see the content?

No they aren't. This is no different.

I payed for a $60 Single player semi-open RPG and did not appreciate having to go online to access potential assistance mechanics and felt the soul/back track mechanic as well as the Humanity aspect was flawed. Again, for me, this is not an issue of easy versus hardcore, this is a balance issue that is a valid critical detriment to an outstanding game.
That said, I am confident that FROM Software could think of any number of addons/dlc's/patches tht could increase the accessibiliy of the game without making any fundamental changes to the core of the game itself. There is a lot more being offered here than just Self-aggrandizing by way of self-flagellation.
The MMORPG is one thing, but if they also offered an optional 5$ unlock or assist pack, that add-on wouldnt effect you one fucking iota, so why are you so worried about it.

Your missing the point though, based on your logic, it should easily have everything laid out for you on a platter because it's a video game. Because it's just a video game, like you said. :/

A flawed game. A terrific, but flawed game.

And you ignore the question.

Ignoring the arguments that other people are making despite them being perfectly valid and soundly defeating him at every turn and then saying something akin to we're just a bunch of elitist brats seems to be VyceVictus' modus operandi, at least on this thread.

 

[VyceVictus]

I read your entire discussion, not that hard to "jump into it".
Like DayDark already replied to you, other assets exist (internet, game manuals) that are still "options" out there; do they detract from your paralyzing fear of the indomitable dragon anymore than an optional ingame cue/guide would that you dont even have to use. That's what doesn't make any sense.

Question for you. If you pay $60 for an MMORPG. Are they obligated to make the content easy for you to see it all? To do all of the dungeons by yourself so you can see the content?

No they aren't. This is no different.

I payed for a $60 Single player semi-open RPG and did not appreciate having to go online to access potential assistance mechanics and felt the soul/back track mechanic as well as the Humanity aspect was flawed. Again, for me, this is not an issue of easy versus hardcore, this is a balance issue that is a valid critical detriment to an outstanding game.
That said, I am confident that FROM Software could think of any number of addons/dlc's/patches tht could increase the accessibiliy of the game without making any fundamental changes to the core of the game itself. There is a lot more being offered here than just Self-aggrandizing by way of self-flagellation.
The MMORPG is one thing, but if they also offered an optional 5$ unlock or assist pack, that add-on wouldnt effect you one fucking iota, so why are you so worried about it.

Your missing the point though, based on your logic, it should easily have everything laid out for you on a platter because it's a video game. Because it's just a video game, like you said. :/

A flawed game. A terrific, but flawed game.

And you ignore the question.

I answered your fucking question: they are not obligated to do that (NOWHERE have I fucking said the developer owes anything), but you have NO right to begrudge others of any such add-ons because it has NO effect on YOUR game.

 

[BioRex]

Man has this got ugly or what? It just seems that the pro-easy mode people just can't understand (or accept) the fact that there are downsides to it. Simple as that. Why aren't the people who are negatively impacted by some consequence(s) of adding an easy mode allowed to be against it?

Because there is no real negative consequence. Its just gamers mad that people will "ruin the integrity" or some contrived bullshit. Im not even for easy mode per se, as I think the issue is a balance design aspect that could be tweaked. An improvement that also promotes accessibility doesn't outright have to alter the core experience in any way. One example brought up about the "sunbros"; just make the "easy" mode closed off to multiplayer and have in game avatar guides. Done. Thats just one of many possible examples. The core game never has to be altered.

But if the game has sunbro's why does the developer need to do anything, honestly there are few challenges up to when you can have people help, is it too much to ask for people to give the game the good old try, try, try again until that point? There is a bit of a hurdle to easy mode come on I know you can do it. Note I'm trying to be condescending, I enjoy helping people and seeing them exceed at hard things.
Also negative consequence, they spend hours that could be put to other things putting in the easy mode.

For me, personally, this is a detraction to the design. This is the similar to how people say "wahts the point of a single player campaign in COD if all everybody does is multiplayer?". I dont play multiplayer. I get the intent of a communal experience, but that to me is a fundamental design flaw if I have to be online in game to get help in my single player journey in which others could potentially hurt it. Now some would say that is the point, to showcase the theme of a hard world of mistrust. To me and others, its just one of several cheap contrivances that takes away from other great parts of the game. "Faux Co-Op MMO-not realy single player RPG" is not a genre, this is an RPG with other MMO elements, and I and others felt its simply one of the design aspects that do not work.

You can summon npcs in offline mode, online mode does have invaders but it has hints and people that can help you. Also why should this game, or any for that matter, be limited to what we think its genre is? And rpg is one the largest and most pointless term used in games these days where rpg elements are thrown about all the time. Maybe survival horror with jolly co-op option/dark invader is a better term though it does flow off the tongue well.

 

[VyceVictus]

Man has this got ugly or what? It just seems that the pro-easy mode people just can't understand (or accept) the fact that there are downsides to it. Simple as that. Why aren't the people who are negatively impacted by some consequence(s) of adding an easy mode allowed to be against it?

Because there is no real negative consequence. Its just gamers mad that people will "ruin the integrity" or some contrived bullshit. Im not even for easy mode per se, as I think the issue is a balance design aspect that could be tweaked. An improvement that also promotes accessibility doesn't outright have to alter the core experience in any way. One example brought up about the "sunbros"; just make the "easy" mode closed off to multiplayer and have in game avatar guides. Done. Thats just one of many possible examples. The core game never has to be altered.

But if the game has sunbro's why does the developer need to do anything, honestly there are few challenges up to when you can have people help, is it too much to ask for people to give the game the good old try, try, try again until that point? There is a bit of a hurdle to easy mode come on I know you can do it. Note I'm trying to be condescending, I enjoy helping people and seeing them exceed at hard things.
Also negative consequence, they spend hours that could be put to other things putting in the easy mode.

For me, personally, this is a detraction to the design. This is the similar to how people say "wahts the point of a single player campaign in COD if all everybody does is multiplayer?". I dont play multiplayer. I get the intent of a communal experience, but that to me is a fundamental design flaw if I have to be online in game to get help in my single player journey in which others could potentially hurt it. Now some would say that is the point, to showcase the theme of a hard world of mistrust. To me and others, its just one of several cheap contrivances that takes away from other great parts of the game. "Faux Co-Op MMO-not realy single player RPG" is not a genre, this is an RPG with other MMO elements, and I and others felt its simply one of the design aspects that do not work.

You can summon npcs in offline mode, online mode does have invaders but it has hints and people that can help you. Also why should this game, or any for that matter, be limited to what we think its genre is? And rpg is one the largest and most pointless term used in games these days where rpg elements are thrown about all the time. Maybe survival horror with jolly co-op option/dark invader is a better term though it does flow off the tongue well.

Thats just it, I truly think DS is to be commended for experimenting and introducing these co-op concepts into an RPG. I simply believe they could have been executed far better. Its not a perfect game (nothing is), but I beleive it has substantial problems in an otherwise terrific game.

 

[VyceVictus]

i juzt bought tekken tag what elitist git thought it was fair to make me need to play the game to view all the ending videos.

It has an easy mode.

 

[VyceVictus]

so it's a flawed game you don't like but would like to ruin for those who do enjoy it just so you can enjoy it instead sounds fair...............

Your game doesnt have to be ruin. As I said before, this doesnt have to be just easy mode all or nothing fix. There are any number of ways to modify the balance without defeating the core mechanics that you enjoy. It's NOT going to ruin your game.

 

[immortalfrieza]

No, all those aides and assets wont automatically make you a champion, but you have no right to begrudge them for using those assets earnestly to learn the game and challenge you on your level.

No I don't, but I do have the right to smack them over the head when they EXPECT those aides and assets to give them an instant win against me or make things easier for them when I did not have those aides and assets, just because they bought those aides and assets, not because it's impossible for them, but just because they didn't care enough to work as hard as I did.

Just because they used assistance doesnt diminish your own achievements in any way.

Yes it does, by letting others have that assistance and accomplish all the same things I did with far less effort when I got through the obstacles before that assistance was available it makes what I accomplished much less impressive and impact, in other words, yes, it does diminish my achievements.

And going back to your silly triathalon analogy, is someone who who got the assistance of trainers and coaches any less entitled to compete than someone who trained on his own?

Nope, because even if they got a trainer they still have to work just as hard to get good enough to participate and potentially win that Triathlon as I do, having a trainer and coach would still mean that they'd have to work just as hard for it as somebody that doesn't have that, it is a different but no less difficult path to the same end, not an easier path to the same end. You aren't asking for them to work as hard as I do to win, you are asking for the other guy to just be given a motorcycle when I'm way out in front and about a short ways away from the finish line while he's barely halfway across the track, just because the other guy isn't willing to work as hard as I do.

This isn't work, its a video game. Not competing for a job and something like affirmative action is in play. Your accomplishment IS the completion without the assistance. What they do has NO bearing on that. You succeeded on your own and no one can take that from you, but you have no right to take assists or help modes from them just to make you feel better. They will put in the same amount of time and effort just playing the game, because it is just that, not an exercise, a game.

Video games are work, they take effort, thus they are work! Why can't you understand that? You can't just walk into a store, buy a game, put it in your system and suddenly expect to get everything, just as you can't walk into a job, do nothing and then expect to be paid! However, I no longer care to respond to you any further, because you aren't going to admit you are wrong anyway. Here's the facts, WE are right, YOU are wrong, and just because aren't willing to admit it and ignore every argument we've made despite it beating your own arguments by any reasonable metric by leaps and bounds doesn't make you right.

 

[VyceVictus]

I read your entire discussion, not that hard to "jump into it".
Like DayDark already replied to you, other assets exist (internet, game manuals) that are still "options" out there; do they detract from your paralyzing fear of the indomitable dragon anymore than an optional ingame cue/guide would that you dont even have to use. That's what doesn't make any sense.

Question for you. If you pay $60 for an MMORPG. Are they obligated to make the content easy for you to see it all? To do all of the dungeons by yourself so you can see the content?

No they aren't. This is no different.

I payed for a $60 Single player semi-open RPG and did not appreciate having to go online to access potential assistance mechanics and felt the soul/back track mechanic as well as the Humanity aspect was flawed. Again, for me, this is not an issue of easy versus hardcore, this is a balance issue that is a valid critical detriment to an outstanding game.
That said, I am confident that FROM Software could think of any number of addons/dlc's/patches tht could increase the accessibiliy of the game without making any fundamental changes to the core of the game itself. There is a lot more being offered here than just Self-aggrandizing by way of self-flagellation.
The MMORPG is one thing, but if they also offered an optional 5$ unlock or assist pack, that add-on wouldnt effect you one fucking iota, so why are you so worried about it.

Your missing the point though, based on your logic, it should easily have everything laid out for you on a platter because it's a video game. Because it's just a video game, like you said. :/

A flawed game. A terrific, but flawed game.

And you ignore the question.

Ignoring the arguments that other people are making despite them being perfectly valid and soundly defeating him at every turn and then saying something akin to we're just a bunch of elitist brats seems to be VyceVictus' modus operandi, at least on this thread.

I see everything you all are concerned about and Im telling you that thsoe concerns are absurd because everything you would have worked for would still be there. Some type of accessibility mechanic wont automatically ruin your experience. All the trials you went through still happened, no one is taking that away.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I read your entire discussion, not that hard to "jump into it".
Like DayDark already replied to you, other assets exist (internet, game manuals) that are still "options" out there; do they detract from your paralyzing fear of the indomitable dragon anymore than an optional ingame cue/guide would that you dont even have to use. That's what doesn't make any sense.

Your ridiculing characterization of how I get entertainment from this game along with your insistence on defining what "gaming is" for everyone else and for all games now-and-forevermore exposes your shallow pretenses of inclusiveness for the sham that they are. You consistently presume to tell us how and why WE should be enjoying our games while ridiculing the way we do it. And then you have the gall to act like WE are the ones being unreasonable, hateful, exclusionary, and unnecessarily insulting when there is absolutely no real reason that everyone can't have the games that they enjoy. Unbelievable.