Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[GrimHeaper]

lol a platinum what do you do with that chuck it in the pile of worthless content?

You follow by the rules of the game is what you do.
I'll just tell you Darksouls is easier because you can use items, die and receive no real punishment just to spite you.

lol a platinum what do you do with that chuck it in the pile of worthless content?

Stop, dude just stop. At first you were actually putting some good stuff forward, now your not. Just please, let it go. They won't understand and they refuse to understand. We can't change a mind set in stone. They don't understand that some games are a niche and that quality comes when a game focuses on what it's best at and not trying to open it just to get an easy buck.

They don't understand that not all games are made the same, that some are not for everyone. They believe that the difficulty is something based on numbers, not by story, atmosphere, and such.

They can't see that Dark Souls is like a paper project, the story, atmosphere, game play and such are the paper. The difficulty is the glue that holds the whole project together. You remove the glue and the project falls into a mess. If you try to make it with less glue, then it begins to shake and crumble and after a bit won't be able to hold it's own weight and the connections are broken and once more it falls to a mess.

They don't believe that story and game play can be one, they think the game play can be changed but when it changes it loses that connection is has to the story that puts the game play into context. They screw context and wish for the game as numbers, rather than the experience because without all of the pieces, it's not an experience. It's just another game. It's like removing the story choice from Mass Effect, your taking the essence from out of the game.

They believe that accessibility is worth having if it means losing the story to game play connection. But it makes it a worthless experience, one that isn't worth remembering. You can't appreciate the world when you can't fit in it. When your character becomes a walking tank, he can't understand the world because he defies it's rules and is no longer part of it. They're out of character.

And that is what they want. They want to be out of character, separate from the game's world for the sake of being able to play it and not experience it.

Actually Bayonetta has a pretty rich lore to go with it's story as well, so it also goes by the same principle.

 

[Korten12]

Actually Bayonetta has a pretty rich lore to go with it's story as well, so it also goes by the same principle.

No it's not, I am talking about GAMEPLAY to Story, not Lore to story.

 

[sonofliber]

lol a platinum what do you do with that chuck it in the pile of worthless content?

Stop, dude just stop. At first you were actually putting some good stuff forward, now your not. Just please, let it go. They won't understand and they refuse to understand. We can't change a mind set in stone. They don't understand that some games are a niche and that quality comes when a game focuses on what it's best at and not trying to open it just to get an easy buck.

They don't understand that not all games are made the same, that some are not for everyone. They believe that the difficulty is something based on numbers, not by story, atmosphere, and such.

They can't see that Dark Souls is like a paper project, the story, atmosphere, game play and such are the paper. The difficulty is the glue that holds the whole project together. You remove the glue and the project falls into a mess. If you try to make it with less glue, then it begins to shake and crumble and after a bit won't be able to hold it's own weight and the connections are broken and once more it falls to a mess.

They don't believe that story and game play can be one, they think the game play can be changed but when it changes it loses that connection is has to the story that puts the game play into context. They screw context and wish for the game as numbers, rather than the experience because without all of the pieces, it's not an experience. It's just another game. It's like removing the story choice from Mass Effect, your taking the essence from out of the game.

They believe that accessibility is worth having if it means losing the story to game play connection. But it makes it a worthless experience, one that isn't worth remembering. You can't appreciate the world when you can't fit in it. When your character becomes a walking tank, he can't understand the world because he defies it's rules and is no longer part of it. They're out of character.

And that is what they want. They want to be out of character, separate from the game's world for the sake of being able to play it and not experience it.

hi my friend who play this game with a trainer (he didnt have the skills to finish the game), say you are spewing lies, about the whole "difficulty is what makes this game work" he loves the setting, the atmosphere, the sound and the asthetics of the game.

 

[Plunkies]

Seems like an easy mode would defeat the whole point of Dark Souls. The difficulty is the atmosphere, it makes you afraid of what's around the corner, it makes you cautious and thoughtful of your next move, and it makes it satisfying when you finally succeed. If you can herp derp button mash your way through the entire game it loses what makes it unique in the first place.

I'm not necessarily against an easy mode, but I hope it's properly balanced in a way that doesn't destroy the heart of the game for those that choose to use it.

 

[BioRex]

lol a platinum what do you do with that chuck it in the pile of worthless content?

Stop, dude just stop. At first you were actually putting some good stuff forward, now your not. Just please, let it go. They won't understand and they refuse to understand. We can't change a mind set in stone. They don't understand that some games are a niche and that quality comes when a game focuses on what it's best at and not trying to open it just to get an easy buck.

They don't understand that not all games are made the same, that some are not for everyone. They believe that the difficulty is something based on numbers, not by story, atmosphere, and such.

They can't see that Dark Souls is like a paper project, the story, atmosphere, game play and such are the paper. The difficulty is the glue that holds the whole project together. You remove the glue and the project falls into a mess. If you try to make it with less glue, then it begins to shake and crumble and after a bit won't be able to hold it's own weight and the connections are broken and once more it falls to a mess.

They don't believe that story and game play can be one, they think the game play can be changed but when it changes it loses that connection is has to the story that puts the game play into context. They screw context and wish for the game as numbers, rather than the experience because without all of the pieces, it's not an experience. It's just another game. It's like removing the story choice from Mass Effect, your taking the essence from out of the game.

They believe that accessibility is worth having if it means losing the story to game play connection. But it makes it a worthless experience, one that isn't worth remembering. You can't appreciate the world when you can't fit in it. When your character becomes a walking tank, he can't understand the world because he defies it's rules and is no longer part of it. They're out of character.

And that is what they want. They want to be out of character, separate from the game's world for the sake of being able to play it and not experience it.

hi my friend who play this game with a trainer (he didnt have the skills to finish the game), say you are spewing lies, about the whole "difficulty is what makes this game work" he loves the setting, the atmosphere, the sound and the asthetics of the game.

And my friend says that difficulty is what makes the game work, so we are 1:1 on opinion.

 

[sonofliber]

eliminate this please

 

[sonofliber]

lol a platinum what do you do with that chuck it in the pile of worthless content?

Stop, dude just stop. At first you were actually putting some good stuff forward, now your not. Just please, let it go. They won't understand and they refuse to understand. We can't change a mind set in stone. They don't understand that some games are a niche and that quality comes when a game focuses on what it's best at and not trying to open it just to get an easy buck.

They don't understand that not all games are made the same, that some are not for everyone. They believe that the difficulty is something based on numbers, not by story, atmosphere, and such.

They can't see that Dark Souls is like a paper project, the story, atmosphere, game play and such are the paper. The difficulty is the glue that holds the whole project together. You remove the glue and the project falls into a mess. If you try to make it with less glue, then it begins to shake and crumble and after a bit won't be able to hold it's own weight and the connections are broken and once more it falls to a mess.

They don't believe that story and game play can be one, they think the game play can be changed but when it changes it loses that connection is has to the story that puts the game play into context. They screw context and wish for the game as numbers, rather than the experience because without all of the pieces, it's not an experience. It's just another game. It's like removing the story choice from Mass Effect, your taking the essence from out of the game.

They believe that accessibility is worth having if it means losing the story to game play connection. But it makes it a worthless experience, one that isn't worth remembering. You can't appreciate the world when you can't fit in it. When your character becomes a walking tank, he can't understand the world because he defies it's rules and is no longer part of it. They're out of character.

And that is what they want. They want to be out of character, separate from the game's world for the sake of being able to play it and not experience it.

hi my friend who play this game with a trainer (he didnt have the skills to finish the game), say you are spewing lies, about the whole "difficulty is what makes this game work" he loves the setting, the atmosphere, the sound and the asthetics of the game.

And my friend says that difficulty is what makes the game work, so we are 1:1 on opinion.

i dont like your friend, but will accept his imput, so yeah we are 1vs1

 

[GrimHeaper]

Actually Bayonetta has a pretty rich lore to go with it's story as well, so it also goes by the same principle.

No it's not, I am talking about GAMEPLAY to Story, not Lore to story.

It has that as well. I said " Rich lore to go with it's story"
Guess what the gameplay is tied to, the story.

 

[Korten12]

hi my friend who play this game with a trainer (he didnt have the skills to finish the game), say you are spewing lies, about the whole "difficulty is what makes this game work" he loves the setting, the atmosphere, the sound and the asthetics of the game.

Hi to your "friend," also he missed the point. The setting dark and depressing. The idea that your supposed to be on among many undead (although the Chosen undead), and that this is a brutal world that doesn't care for you, your friend, or I. Removing difficulty then removes tension, but it also removes any connection between story and gameplay. Because if it's not hard than it brings you out of the experience because your character isn't supposed to be some invincible god who can tackle any challenge.

You can't understand how the bosses are supposed to be menacing if you're able to push through them because you aren't playing by the story. Your character then is "out of character," by becoming something they aren't supposed to be. That is why even when your the max level, enemies on NG+++++++, are still hard and will never suddenly become easy. Because no matter how strong you're, your character is supposed to be small compared to them. They aren't supposed to be unique in the sense of power. Bosses are supposed to look at you like an ant.

Your friend can't experience the game. He may claim he likes them, but he can never be "in character" and thus never experience it. Because his character is no longer part of the story.

 

[Korten12]

Actually Bayonetta has a pretty rich lore to go with it's story as well, so it also goes by the same principle.

No it's not, I am talking about GAMEPLAY to Story, not Lore to story.

It has that as well. I said " Rich lore to go with it's story"
Guess what the gameplay is tied to, the story.

Not all games have gameplay tied to the story and here is the problem...

Bayonetta, your supposed to be an all powerful badass. In Dark Souls your not supposed to be powerful, no matter how strong you are in Dark Souls, the world is still going to look down at you like an ant. Removing that and your removing yourself from the story.

In Bayonetta, just changing the difficulty doesn't remove you from the story because even if it's hard, your still a badass no matter what difficulty you are on and that doesn't change because enemies are hard. That's the difference.

In Dark Souls the enemies are always supposed to be hard, and your supposed to be just another undead. Changing it so that you can plow through enemies makes you no longer looked down upon as an ant. But on equal footing as the bosses you fight. That is not the point of the setting.

 

[girzwald]

Seems like an easy mode would defeat the whole point of Dark Souls. The difficulty is the atmosphere, it makes you afraid of what's around the corner, it makes you cautious and thoughtful of your next move, and it makes it satisfying when you finally succeed. If you can herp derp button mash your way through the entire game it loses what makes it unique in the first place.

I'm not necessarily against an easy mode, but I hope it's properly balanced in a way that doesn't destroy the heart of the game for those that choose to use it.

Deadspace manages that exact same atmosphere without being soul crushingly difficult.

 

[sonofliber]

hi my friend who play this game with a trainer (he didnt have the skills to finish the game), say you are spewing lies, about the whole "difficulty is what makes this game work" he loves the setting, the atmosphere, the sound and the asthetics of the game.

Hi to your "friend," also he missed the point. The setting dark and depressing. The idea that your supposed to be on among many undead (although the Chosen undead), and that this is a brutal world that doesn't care for you, your friend, or I. Removing difficulty then removes tension, but it also removes any connection between story and gameplay. Because if it's not hard than it brings you out of the experience because your character isn't supposed to be some invincible god who can tackle any challenge.

You can't understand how the bosses are supposed to be menacing if you're able to push through them because you aren't playing by the story. Your character then is "out of character," by becoming something they aren't supposed to be. That is why even when your the max level, enemies on NG+++++++, are still hard and will never suddenly become easy. Because no matter how strong you're, your character is supposed to be small compared to them. They aren't supposed to be unique in the sense of power. Bosses are supposed to look at you like an ant.

Your friend can't experience the game. He may claim he likes them, but he can never be "in character" and thus never experience it. Because his character is no longer part of the story.

now you see, no one talks about removing the difficulty (that would be wrong), but instead adapting it to less skilled players, intead of having to run back to your body, you just lose 1/3 of your souls to your body, intead of the frigging cappra deamon with his 2 dogs, its just the cappra daemon or him with just 1 dog, make an attack have 1 more second of delay, make enemy weapons bounce of walls (or make that your weapons dont do that), that sort of change, not "well just spam right button to win"

you would breeze thru (if you played on easy) the new cappra deamon boss, my friend now can actually have a change to beat him, that my friend is easy mode, not a fundament change, but little tweaks here and there

 

[Korten12]

Seems like an easy mode would defeat the whole point of Dark Souls. The difficulty is the atmosphere, it makes you afraid of what's around the corner, it makes you cautious and thoughtful of your next move, and it makes it satisfying when you finally succeed. If you can herp derp button mash your way through the entire game it loses what makes it unique in the first place.

I'm not necessarily against an easy mode, but I hope it's properly balanced in a way that doesn't destroy the heart of the game for those that choose to use it.

Deadspace manages that exact same atmosphere without being soul crushingly difficult.

Hardly, in Dark Souls you're given powerful weaponry, plus considering it's not hard and it's also a different atmopshere. In Dead Space its about being alone in a horrorific setting. Whereas Dark Souls is about being alone BUT also about being an ant among giants, looking down upon you as you must stand up despite the difference.

In Dead Space that doesn't exist, because your character isn't an ant fighting, he has an arsenal of weapons and considering in the second game he is no longer afraid takes away any tension of whats around the other corner. Even in the first game though since it's linear doesn't give that effect because you can expect whats going to happen and if you die. No sweat you spawn a bit back with all of your stuff, and you know what to expect the second time.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Juts to reiterate, my main point is not that every game needs an"easy mode", my main point is that if any game allows for anytype of add on assistance or help (or even, yess, a stat decreased easy mode), that will in NO WAY affect you being able to enjoy the original challenge as intended. Im not saying DS MUSt get an add on patch or anything, but if the sequel does, you have no need to be concerned. Its not gonna "Fuck Your Game Up". You WILL have the original. No one wants to deny anyone that.

If I COULD use it, it affects the sense of accomplishment (which I remind you is the stated goal of this game's designers) and the tension. The OPTION, the very presence of it, impacts tension and feelings of achievement. You belittled my emotional response to these games, but that is the whole intention behind them! In addition to that, difficulty is essential to the Dark Souls design in the way that shooting at things is essential to Call of Duty's design. To tell me they are going to add a mode completely without that, but leave everything in the entire game that relies on it and expounds on it exactly the same just seems ridiculous to me. It can't happen, nobody makes games like that. The reason we are able to get the focused, crafted experience we have now is precisely because they are focusing everything on the one design. In Dark Souls, you are presented with an impassable obstacle. You overcome it not with quick reflexes and precise aiming, but by taking your time and learning about the game. That's what it is all about, the learning and expanding your knowledge of the game. Without the obstacle there is nothing to learn. That leaves nothing for the casual player to do except blow through it.

Give easy mode players a game like that and they will be SCREAMING for a story they can appreciate, and combat they can appreciate, enough content to fill their time, a branching leveling system and bosses that don't 1 hit KO them a thousand times in a row. The kind of player that needs an easy mode will never get passed Bed of Chaos, no matter what the stats are. So that fight needs to be designed with the needs of both audiences in mind. Easy mode players will never get through Blighttown, regardless of what the stats are. They ALL need to be designed with both audiences in mind. Everything will be limited to what can be made workable for both audiences. The Dark Souls experience we have now is so well crafted precisely because it does not NEED to bend to the needs of multiple audiences. The coop, the core gameplay, the messaging system, the covenant system, the learning experience, upgrade system, is made relevant by the difficulty. Everything is designed around difficulty. That's the whole idea!

As for the "peanuts", heh..well, DS DOES have peanuts in it, amongst other delicious nougat and caramel and chocolate. The difficulty is just one aspect. A main core one, but not the entire package.
That said, in my activity of gaming, I am free to get out of a game whatever I want, anyone is. I liked the combat and setting, art, and atmosphere, but not other things I mentioned, This doesnt mean I have to not play the game just because of those certain detractions. You dont have to want to play DS JUST because it's hard, there's more to it than that. And so, if the developers decided to put something out that addressed those detractions, why not? Especially if its optional. You say leave "us" alone, but Im saying nobody is bothering or imposing you to begin with. I have faith in From software after all these years to believe they wouldnt abandon their hardcore fanbase, but I also know they have just as much talent in making things accessible and fun at the same time challenging (Armored Core, Otogi, hell Metal Wolf Chaos) Nobody is taking anything from you. An addition to the playin field is not going to make you any less of a star player. And in the end, if DS stays the same, great and bad, it would still be worth experiencing (to wit giving From our money). This is not a zero sum game.

Please don't mention the "star player" thing, it might be interpreted to mean that I care about measuring myself against others, that I am ELITIST. That tends to really set me off. It could even be construed as an ad hominem in this case.

I realize there is a lot to appreciate in Dark Souls aside from the difficulty. But I'm sorry, this is a difficulty game. Not a difficult game, a difficulty game. The idea of an easy mode runs counter to it's design and goals. It's simply antithetical. You are saying they are going to make a game that is some crazy inversion of Dark Souls, and then promising that won't impact my experience in any way. I don't think that is fair to the fans of the series or a reasonable expectation. If you told Starcraft fans their game should be an FPS because that's all you want to play, and they are bad for maniacally hiding their pictures and story behind strategy gameplay just to be jerks, I think they would laugh. That is exactly what this is but for some reason no one is laughing. Dark Souls has to fight harder then anything else to exist and have an identity because it does not fit easily into people's expectations.

If you or anyone wants to try to get into the game, I would love nothing more than to help them. Seriously, I know I'm a pain, but I would be happy to help you get into it, and I can even coop on Xbox. It doesn't matter if you're a newbie or whatever, because learning and learning from each other is what it's all about. And once you get drawn in I hope you understand.

 

[VyceVictus]

hi my friend who play this game with a trainer (he didnt have the skills to finish the game), say you are spewing lies, about the whole "difficulty is what makes this game work" he loves the setting, the atmosphere, the sound and the asthetics of the game.

Hi to your "friend," also he missed the point. The setting dark and depressing. The idea that your supposed to be on among many undead (although the Chosen undead), and that this is a brutal world that doesn't care for you, your friend, or I. Removing difficulty then removes tension, but it also removes any connection between story and gameplay. Because if it's not hard than it brings you out of the experience because your character isn't supposed to be some invincible god who can tackle any challenge.

You can't understand how the bosses are supposed to be menacing if you're able to push through them because you aren't playing by the story. Your character then is "out of character," by becoming something they aren't supposed to be. That is why even when your the max level, enemies on NG+++++++, are still hard and will never suddenly become easy. Because no matter how strong you're, your character is supposed to be small compared to them. They aren't supposed to be unique in the sense of power. Bosses are supposed to look at you like an ant.

Your friend can't experience the game. He may claim he likes them, but he can never be "in character" and thus never experience it. Because his character is no longer part of the story.

So what?
Who are you to say who "experiences" what? You both "experienced" the game by playing it. And right here, we see how his experience has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on yours. Just like all the other analogies of books and movies and sports and peanuts or whatever, you can experience medium however you want. Gaming in general and this game in particular doesnt have to be just one way, regardless of whether or not it's casual or hardcore. You and his friend bought the game, you and him gave From money, you and him got wahtever you wanted out of it. An assist or easy mode or whatever will not change that.

 

[Korten12]

hi my friend who play this game with a trainer (he didnt have the skills to finish the game), say you are spewing lies, about the whole "difficulty is what makes this game work" he loves the setting, the atmosphere, the sound and the asthetics of the game.

Hi to your "friend," also he missed the point. The setting dark and depressing. The idea that your supposed to be on among many undead (although the Chosen undead), and that this is a brutal world that doesn't care for you, your friend, or I. Removing difficulty then removes tension, but it also removes any connection between story and gameplay. Because if it's not hard than it brings you out of the experience because your character isn't supposed to be some invincible god who can tackle any challenge.

You can't understand how the bosses are supposed to be menacing if you're able to push through them because you aren't playing by the story. Your character then is "out of character," by becoming something they aren't supposed to be. That is why even when your the max level, enemies on NG+++++++, are still hard and will never suddenly become easy. Because no matter how strong you're, your character is supposed to be small compared to them. They aren't supposed to be unique in the sense of power. Bosses are supposed to look at you like an ant.

Your friend can't experience the game. He may claim he likes them, but he can never be "in character" and thus never experience it. Because his character is no longer part of the story.

now you see, no one talks about removing the difficulty (that would be wrong), but instead adapting it to less skilled players, intead of having to run back to your body, you just lose 1/3 of your souls to your body, intead of the frigging cappra deamon with his 2 dogs, its just the cappra daemon or him with just 1 dog, make an attack have 1 more second of delay, that sort of change, not "well just spam right button to win"

you would breeze thru (if you played on easy) the new cappra deamon boss, my friend now can actually have a change to beat him, that my friend is easy mode, not a fundament change, but little tweaks here and there

Still not getting the point, now your just playing for the sake of playing it. I love Dark Soul's gameplay, it's fun, but what makes it fun is it's difficulty. It provides an never ending challenge. Death is part of the game play and part of the storyline, making death have less of an effect is removing that fear. The idea of the story is that when you die, you lose your souls (and humanity) and thus are back to being a standard hollow. It's part of the story. But if you only lose some, then suddenly your not an average undead, your more than that and that's not what the game is going for.

Making the encounters easier, than removes the ant being among giants, because now it's more like, a human being among humans. Your on equal footing. We play games to not only just play them but to experience them. When the game is trying to push this experience and you refuse it. Your missing the point.

It would be like watching a movie and then you remove all the major plot points and just left with the scenes in between. The movie loses it's focus and no longer has the impact and meaning it once had and your just watching a hollow movie. And where is the fun in that? Where is the fun is losing out on the experience the game wants you to experience?

 

[GrimHeaper]

Actually Bayonetta has a pretty rich lore to go with it's story as well, so it also goes by the same principle.

No it's not, I am talking about GAMEPLAY to Story, not Lore to story.

It has that as well. I said " Rich lore to go with it's story"
Guess what the gameplay is tied to, the story.

Not all games have gameplay tied to the story and here is the problem...

Bayonetta, your supposed to be an all powerful badass. In Dark Souls your not supposed to be powerful, no matter how strong you are in Dark Souls, the world is still going to look down at you like an ant. Removing that and your removing yourself from the story.

In Bayonetta, just changing the difficulty doesn't remove you from the story because even if it's hard, your still a badass no matter what difficulty you are on and that doesn't change because enemies are hard. That's the difference.

In Dark Souls the enemies are always supposed to be hard, and your supposed to be just another undead. Changing it so that you can plow through enemies makes you no longer looked down upon as an ant. But on equal footing as the bosses you fight. That is not the point of the setting.

Yet if you actually paid attention to the father boss fight you would notice how helpless Bayonetta was.
This is the introduction to Bayonetta. All those things she has fought so far are small fry.
Yes, even that god at the end.

If you truly wanted a hopeless battle you would put a bayonetta boss in darksouls. >.>
You a puny human against something that can destroy entire countries in a blink of the eye and can move at the speed of lightning. A hopeless battle is by definition one you cannot win.

 

[BioRex]

Actually Bayonetta has a pretty rich lore to go with it's story as well, so it also goes by the same principle.

No it's not, I am talking about GAMEPLAY to Story, not Lore to story.

It has that as well. I said " Rich lore to go with it's story"
Guess what the gameplay is tied to, the story.

You I think I thought of a better comparison, though this may be redundant by the time it gets posted
Lowering the difficulty in Dark Souls is to making the fights less flashy in Bayonetta. The core of Dark Souls is to hard, the core of Bayonetta is to be stylish. (note I don't think less of bayonetta and it's not a style over substance type of style, I mean literal being awesome, I mean you ride up a rocket into space on a motorcycle that was bloody BADASS!!!) So an easy mode in dark souls is akin to a mode in Bayonetta where you don't ride a rocket into space while on a motorcycle. Damn I need to replay Bayobetta...