Jimquisition: Fee-to-Pay and the Death of Dignity

[Evonisia]

Ah yes, the return of the Nathan Drake's meaty foot long, how I have longed for this day. I liked how Deathwing was there to show "Blizzard bursting the MMO bubble", especially since after we actually got fight him, nobody liked Deathwing publicly.

I agree, the market will just turn on Fee to Pay, there's just no way people will be complacent for so long.

 

[GeneralBigG]

Having played and completed Crimson Dragon, I don't remember seeing ANY DLC for it at all! Did they take it out pore-launch?

Ahh, there you go. Just checked on the store, and the only thing to buy are "Jewel Packs". Ways to buy in game booster packs. But you earn so much in game money anyway, there isn't any point to them.

The costumes are overpriced in Ryse, but that is the kind of thing that, to me, should be MT. Stuff that doesn't affect the gameplay in anyway, but just makes you look different. That said, 2 things:

1. £3.19 for a character skin is a fucking rip;
2. There should at least be some skins in game (either there from the start or unlocked) for free.

As I said on your last video, I'm a long time Forza fan, but the content lock on Forza 5 is truly a fucking joke. Never mind selling the DLC for half-price for a few days, they should have just GIVEN us the content that so fucking obviously would have been included in Forza 4. Hell, I can usually see SOME point to SOME decisions - and generating content post-launch to keep people interested in the game is a good idea, but this just takes the fucking cake. As a die hard Xboxer - fuck you Microsoft.

 

[ritchards]

...oh the places that popping-in-and-out alien mouth will go...

 

[Thanatos2k]

A surprising and disturbing thing happened last week. Capcom of all people put out reasonable DLC. I know it sounds believable but let me explain.

Capcom released the 6th case for Phoenix Wright 5 and charged $5 for it. The full game had 5 cases and cost $30 so $6 a case is perfectly reasonable. Additionally, all previous Phoenix Wright games had 5 cases, so it really was an extra content addition that didn't seem held out of the original product.

So yeah, even Capcom can be reasonable if they try. Other companies would be well advised to stop your disgusting price gouging DLC and fee-to-pay practices before it's too late.

 

[Thanatos2k]

How do you feel about companies like Nintendo who created DLC for a game like Fire Emblem: Awakening, where it was genuine, added content, that was neither necessary, but instead was rather fun missions and some nice little bonus content, along side with completely free DLC on top of paid DLC, including powerful free weapons, and some fun missions for free as well.

Is this an appropriate style of DLC, or still along the same?

Also long time fan of yours at this point. Love the show.

FA:A's DLC is absolutely reprehensible. Add up the cost of buying all of it and you get a total SEVERAL TIMES MORE than the price of the game.

That's not "nice little bonus content", that's a rip off.

 

[MCerberus]

I'd like to point out that there are a lot of microtransactions that aren't egregious. These are the games where you don't feel obligated to spend money you just want to. "Oh look a hat" on TF2, "I NEEEEEEEEEED that legendary skin" in LoL, and playing pretty princess dress up in a lot of games.

About the worst I get exposed to is World of Tanks for-pay Gold ammo and tanks. These are really just situationally effective and nothing my Leopard can't handle.

Most of the bad examples seem to come from skinner-box casual land (hai there Gameloft, how the hell are you making money?) or people stapling on "buy now" stuff because they have no idea what they're doing.

 

[Morthasa]

[Stuff]

Oh I disagree completely with the Mass Effect 3 analogy. I thought Mass Effect 3 multiplayer was awful because you had to grind for random packs that usually contain crap that you don't want. It seemed like the prices for the different packs were so high that it wasn't worth grinding up to the more pricy packs. That is the first game I noticed had horrible microtransactions for the multiplayer. If I could actually spend my in game money on what I wanted it wouldn't be so bad, but the fact that every pack was random and most of the time you just get 1 use items was terrible. I didn't even stick around long enough for any of the dlc.

I have been playing Order & Chaos Duels, which is a card game on tablets and phone and it has a similar structure where you spend in game cash (or real cash) to get random card packs, but at least the game was free. I spend $40-$50 dollars on ME3 and still had to grind in multiplayer just to get more then like 3 races and 3 classes.

Fair enough but, if I understand your point correctly, your main beef was not with the microtransaction element but with the random element of the packs. This element is a separate one (incidentally better discussed in two recent Extra Credits episodes). I agree that it was less than pleasant, with many fans complaining in the forums and stating that they would have prefferred more costly boosters, but with the possibility to choose what you got.

I do not claim that it was a perfect application, but I do think that in the long run, microtransactions helped keep the MP element alive by making free additional content possible; though some might have been turned off by the grinding element.

Again, not saying it was perfect, only that in that case it was not all bad and had at least some positive effect.

 

[Samantha Burt]

"You cant just keep repeating the mistakes of the past, and expect successful different results"

Did I ever tell you... the definition of insanity?

OT: I believe that Jim has too much faith in humanity. I would like it if this crap failed miserably, but I'm pretty sure the majority of the market will continue to eat it up. \:

 

[Thanatos2k]

[Stuff]

Oh I disagree completely with the Mass Effect 3 analogy. I thought Mass Effect 3 multiplayer was awful because you had to grind for random packs that usually contain crap that you don't want. It seemed like the prices for the different packs were so high that it wasn't worth grinding up to the more pricy packs. That is the first game I noticed had horrible microtransactions for the multiplayer. If I could actually spend my in game money on what I wanted it wouldn't be so bad, but the fact that every pack was random and most of the time you just get 1 use items was terrible. I didn't even stick around long enough for any of the dlc.

I have been playing Order & Chaos Duels, which is a card game on tablets and phone and it has a similar structure where you spend in game cash (or real cash) to get random card packs, but at least the game was free. I spend $40-$50 dollars on ME3 and still had to grind in multiplayer just to get more then like 3 races and 3 classes.

Fair enough but, if I understand your point correctly, your main beef was not with the microtransaction element but with the random element of the packs. This element is a separate one (incidentally better discussed in two recent Extra Credits episodes). I agree that it was less than pleasant, with many fans complaining in the forums and stating that they would have prefferred more costly boosters, but with the possibility to choose what you got.

Anytime you add that random "can't see what you're gonna get" element it becomes gambling. Put in more money and pull the lever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gachapon

It got so bad in Japan that they actually outlawed the most egregious implementations. I see other countries eventually stepping up to the plate on this as well.

I do not claim that it was a perfect application, but I do think that in the long run, microtransactions helped keep the MP element alive by making free additional content possible; though some might have been turned off by the grinding element.

You know how you make free additional content possible? By releasing it. For free.

 

[Dr.Awkward]

Might as well send a suggestion here: If you're tired of all these big shots trying to cash in, why not start some sort of movement that competes with their power and prestige?

For example, Super Bowl is coming soon. A commercial spot during that event could cost millions in that running, but it's also an event many people in the US will be watching. Why not do some sort of fundraiser that tries to raise enough money to buy one of those spots, and then give it to a indie development team that shows a different spectrum of gaming the public barely notices? We need to show the public that there is much more to gaming than some modern military shooters. If we can come together just like how they come together, then we can possibly change the perception of the industry in one day and pique the interests of people who put it off as nothing more than a hobby gone awry.

My money's on a Stanley Parable commercial. It would likely be the funniest one as well, given how unfunny the last few SBs have been.

 

[Morthasa]

You know how you make free additional content possible? By releasing it. For free.

Personally I do not believe many companies will put in the money and time to deliver free content (especially of the magnitude of the expansions I mentioned) without some means to recover the money. Giving away content for free is not an investment, it is charity, and the way companies are now, expecting charity is ludicrous.

The bare bones of my argument was "if a game is going to have microtransactions, at least the income can be used to give some additional free content to the gamers".

In the case of ME3, the free content made sense from a business point of view because, not only the costs were covered by the microtransactions income, but also the expansions increased game longevity, which in turn encouraged players to buy more stuff. Without microtransactions, what incentive would there have been for the publishers to put in the money to give out free content? (Ok, granted, EA could have used some good PR..)

 

[Thanatos2k]

You know how you make free additional content possible? By releasing it. For free.

Personally I do not believe many companies will put in the money and time to deliver free content (especially of the magnitude of the expansions I mentioned) without some means to recover the money. Giving away content for free is not an investment, it is charity, and the way companies are now, expecting charity is ludicrous.

That's the point behind this episode - the companies who haven't traded away their dignity still will put their customers first. Companies like CDPR releasing Witcher 2 EE and DLC for free while Bioware scams it up with DLC and microtransaction shows the divide between companies with dignity, and those without.

The bare bones of my argument was "if a game is going to have microtransactions, at least the income can be used to give some additional free content to the gamers".

This question shouldn't ever come up during the design of a game. Don't start with microtransactions as even a possibility and you won't compromise your game design to include them.

 

[Mike Fang]

Ahh yes, fee to pay, one of the reasons I'm glad I've lost interest in console gaming. Of course I know PC gaming isn't immune from it either, and I'm honestly not a big fan of DLC in its entirety. I've bought some DLC for certain games, but it still rankles me a bit when I have to play for the next chapter in a game I already bought. And it makes the game I paid full price for feel unfinished or rushed out when I find new stuff the developers are trying to staple on after the fact. Hell, I never much cared for expansion packs for this same reason.

Now, the one caveat I have for this is with MMOs. Since those games are supposed to be perpetual and ongoing, I can see the purpose behind the expansion packs and DLC for them; it's how you update what people are already playing with and isn't meant to have a set stopping point. I don't even mind microtransactions in an MMO, so long as what's being offered isn't something essential to advancing in the game or restricting narrative content. Cosmetic items, temporary ability boosts, these sorts of things that are either conveniences or luxuries I can get behind selling through microtransactions, because individually they don't cost too much to the players (at least they shouldn't when priced sensibly) and they help ensure a company has some sort of steady income from an MMO without subscription fees (or if not steady, then at least a source outside of the initial purchase). But selling access to special areas to explore, having to pay to unlock a certain class of character? NO. That is NOT fair and it's as exploitative as Jim says it is.

 

[KungFuJazzHands]

This shit isn't new -- it's something PC gamers have had to deal with for years now. We've had PC-centric companies like THQ undermining their talented developers and ultimately their own existence by vomiting nickel-and-dime micro content onto the public. We get publishers like Paradox who have the gall to charge us for background music and avatar editors. We even put up with indie publishers like Behold Studios who think it's a good idea to design a dull retro game based entirely around an invasive and manipulative microtransaction system. Do I even need to mention F2P MMOs or Farmville?

Valve, a company that once made its name by releasing genre-defining PC titles, has become a business more concerned with hat-and-trinket profit than with actual game design, and their entire company culture has suffered as a result. Sony spent so much time obsessing over a more effective microtransaction store for Planetside 2 that they couldn't be bothered to patch the game to a suitable state until a year after release.

The aggressive microtransaction model has finally been adopted by the entire industry, and it's fisting its way into the console world's collective butthole as I type this. You guys are gonna freakin' love it.

 

[Lord_Gremlin]

I'm ok with buying whatever content, I bought all Dragon's Dogma DLC, then Dark Arisen and all it's DLC. But I've ignored those rift crystal packs, cause they are NOT actual content.
My time there days is at the highest premium, so I only cherry pick the most delightful, best games (to my taste). Anything with actual microtransactions is a no buy. Guess I gave Dragon's Dogma a free pass cause those rift crystal packs were so obviously useless.
Oh and if I were to name an example of game ruined by microtransactions that kept it secret it's GoW Ascension's multiplayer. Disgusting grind designed specifically to sell those 24-48 hour XP boosters. And GoW3 was one of the best games of last gen, so sad.
Well, so far at least Killzone Shadow Fall seems to be fine. They are selling some DLC skins, but nothing unusual.

 

[AdagioBoognish]

So far the only micro transaction game I've played and enjoyed is Path of Exile. Free to download with all gameplay content available for free and all the items in the cash shop are strictly visual. You can pay $5 to have flaming swords, but they don't become more powerful. It's actually made me interested enough to regularly browse through their store when I normally avoid all other micro transactions like the plague. I always tip when I enjoy dinner at a restaurant and I'm glad I can throw $5 to a developer when I think they've done a good job.

 

[rasputin0009]

There's just not enough competition in the industry. You'd see more customer friendly practices if there wasn't only 6 big companies calling most of the shots. You would only need one of those companies to stop selling DLC and start selling full packages again. Imagine if EA just up and put out $70 games and started releasing DLC for free. Everybody would love them. But sadly, none of those 6 companies are active. They're just reacting and matching each other's practices.

Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon is the ideal form of DLC (A really rare props to Ubisoft). It was a taste of something different that didn't need the base game to play, but ran off the same engine. It was great value for both the consumer and the publisher. And it helped sales of the base game at the same time.

 

[Kinitawowi]

If by "corrected itself" you mean "drove everybody so nuts that they abandoned the concept until the whole genre died", then yeah, it corrected itself. Personally I still mourn the loss of Guitar Hero - hilariously enough, a game pretty much built for microtransactions and DLC, with new song packs up the proverbial wazoo.

That, of course, is how microtransactions should work - by adding in optional supplemental material that isn't necessarily essential to feeling like you're getting the complete experience. If anything, the full priced game releases that basically amounted to track packs without doing anything to develop the series *cough*VanHalen*cough* became the exact inverse of microtransactions, a sort of "megatransaction" if you will - and it was people shying away from those that convinced the publishers that the field was dead.

There's a place for DLC, but it should only ever be cosmetic or purely supplemental. Additional skins and tracks are fine. Additional weapons, chapters and play modes are not.