Jimquisition: Fun & Priorities

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SonOfVoorhees

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Aug 3, 2011
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Jim, shut the door in their face. If they cant take a polite hint then fuck em. :) GTA4 sucked....mainly the driving. GTA5 looks awesome. But then the world in GTA:SA was great, but the wilderness sucked. You had missions where you drive for 10 minutes to get to the mission area.....and then you failed the mission. Back to the driving. Sucked so much.

Back to the point. Companies make games to make money. A AAA title is for the maximum buyers....its meant to be for every body. Other games have less budget, can be awesome and thus dont need as much sales. Its the same as movies. Why does WWZ need $250 to make a zombie movie when other directors have made awesome movies for a lot less. Day of the Dead is better than WWZ (the movie, not the book) and yet they are now remaking that as well.

Business is what it is. Niche stuff doesnt sell. Books, games, movies, music or whatever. Well, it sells, but then budget comes into account. An budget is the problem.
 

GamemasterAnthony

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I have a question: At what point on this failed planet did the gaming industry no longer take fun into consideration when making their games?

Jim definitely nailed it on the head with this one. Perhaps Microsoft should also take notes because something like this could also be used as an arguement against DRM in a way. After all...how bloody fun is it when game companies PREVENT you from having fun with a game in order to protect their IP?
 

Neverhoodian

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Well said, Jim.

Gotta say, I loved your choice of Rocko's Modern Life as an example of a legitimate attempt to entertain people. Such an awesome show.
 

Therumancer

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To be honest Jim I don't think this installment was cynical enough. :)

From my long experience with video games and watching the industry it seems to me that "fun" is tossed around when a game developer can't think of any other way to justify something they are doing. "We did it this way because we think it's more fun" oftentimes comes about as a way of trying to justify why they couldn't produce the innovations that were promised.

To use an example, look back at the old MMO "Age Of Conan" (which is still running) it made a number of lofty promises, most of which were achievable within then-current technology, but delivered on very few of them. Some of their promises like having formation-based PVP fighting, a system in which instead of running around and trying to circle strafe each other as a DPS lonewolf or semi-invulnerable self healer, you would have to get into position with other players and actually coordinate like an actual military action in order to succeed. The idea was to even have specialized characters like pikemen who were going to specialize in formation based PVP combat. Needless to say Funcom dropped this idea which a lot of people were looking for, and actually pretty late in the dev process after it had been hyped seriously, their justification was "it wasn't fun" and instead they pretty much delivered the same kind of MMORPG PVP experience that everyone else had with things at best being loosely coordinated pre-made teams of lone wolves, as opposed to everyone having to form up and coordinate in formations, or mages combine powers in rituals to achieve bigger effects and so on. At the end of the day "fun" was used as an excuse for "we just really can't deliver this". To some extent you also see this in their "The Secret World" product where their much lauded totally free-form "play anything you want" character system is actually highly regimented as only very specific things tend to work together, you have to unlock powers in a specific order, and your given a pretty tight limit on how many abilities you can have active at one time. All of which makes sense from a game design perspective, but at the same time isn't what they promised, and again was justified as being in the name of "fun".

To bring this around to the example put forth in "The Jimquisition", it seems to me that "Grand Theft Auto V" is largely using "fun" as a justification for not having innovated much and having pretty much stole wholesale from other games. That's in of itself not a bad thing, I agree that innovation for the sake of innovation generally doesn't work out. However in the clips I've seen of "Grand Theft Auto V" I see a lot of cover based shooting, with "blind firing" options present in some other games, combined with things like underwater swimming (which a lot of games have), and base jumping with parachutes and such which is something that was mastered to an extreme degree in titles like "Just Cause 2". To be fair all of these things can be great fun, but when I see a company parroting "fun, fun, fun" while pretty much trotting out a checklist of things you'd more or less expect nowadays, it makes me quite cynical, it seems "we did it because it's fun" is the claim because really they couldn't find any other way to justify it. It would be like "Call of Duty" using "fun" as a justification for it's painful stagnation, along with all the other "follow the leader" shooters trying to pretend they are "Call Of Duty".

Speaking entirely for myself, I haven't been all that impressed by the new "Grand Theft Auto", sure it's the prettiest one in the series, but it seems pretty derivative to me. Nothing there really impresses me the way CJ rocketing around with a jet pack did in "San Andreas", largely because that was pretty new and fresh at the time, you toss a Jet Pack in now it's nothing special because well... we've already seen that, and it's actually a step backwards to not have crap like that which people have been trying to drill into Rockstar's head for a while now. I guess it doesn't have to be innovative to be good, but at the same time I look at it and can't help but wonder what is supposed to make this one stand out from other sandbox mission & mayhem games other than the high quality of the graphics (which you expect, due to it being the latest one out).
 

Agayek

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Oct 23, 2008
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Jimothy Sterling said:
The what in my videos?
The shrimp [http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6484/9mj.png].

Though judging by your initial response, it's probably a safe conclusion I'll never get an answer. Ah well, making shit up is generally more fun anyway.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Sep 8, 2011
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Jim, you made some great points. So please lose some weight. We can't afford to lose you. DON'T DIE ON ME JIM! DON'T DIE ON ME, DAMN IT!
 

Wolle

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Johnson McGee said:
The Dead Space 3 Microtransactions are one of the best examples of bad game design motivated by cash-flow. If part of a game is so tedious or boring that people want to pay to skip it, why include it at all?
I believe you just answered our own question.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Apr 18, 2011
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Agayek said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
The what in my videos?
The shrimp [http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6484/9mj.png].

Though judging by your initial response, it's probably a safe conclusion I'll never get an answer. Ah well, making shit up is generally more fun anyway.
Seriously, I don't recall editing that into the video. Rewatched, couldn't see it.
 

The Feast

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Haha, I never heard that Jim Sterling said that GTA V will be fun as well as Rockstar's previous games, because he was talking about the way PR explain their game on what the features contain, and all of sudden you guys say that Rockstar game sucks and so on. Sure, it's not fun, but can you guys at least focusing on what he really have to say instead of going off topic?
 

Ghored

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Mar 15, 2010
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Jimothy Sterling said:
Agayek said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
The what in my videos?
The shrimp [http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6484/9mj.png].

Though judging by your initial response, it's probably a safe conclusion I'll never get an answer. Ah well, making shit up is generally more fun anyway.
Seriously, I don't recall editing that into the video. Rewatched, couldn't see it.
It's inbetween the part where you're showing shots of a guy in truck weaving his way through a horde of police cars and the yoga shot.

[3:19-3:25 GTA V Escape Cop Footage: Grand Theft Auto already has one of the biggest audiences out there because GTA has always been a damn fun series

3:26 TRIPLE SHRIMP SHOT: HOWEVER

3:27-3:28 GTA V Yoga shot: There's a difference...]


Not sure if this is a part of some elaborate joke that just flew over my head, but I thought I may as well help.



OT: By the way nice episode. I like the mini-movie review within the talk about games there. Heh.
 

MB202

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Sep 14, 2008
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When I saw the title, I thought this was going to be another one of those "fun vs. engagement" videos, talking about how a game doesn't necessarily need to be "fun" to be good... But it's something else entirely. Perhaps that's for the best.
 

Olas

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Dec 24, 2011
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Has the gaming industry always been this shallow and profit driven? Because I don't remember it ever being this bad when I was a kid. Back then it just seemed like companies just tried to make really good games because good games sold well. Now it's all about generating hype, appealing to large audiences, microtransactions, DLC. What the fuck happened?

Or has it always been this bad and I've simply been too naive to see it.

Adam Jensen said:
Jim, you made some great points. So please lose some weight. We can't afford to lose you. DON'T DIE ON ME JIM! DON'T DIE ON ME, DAMN IT!
Don't worry, if this body dies Jim will simply inhabit another.
 

Grabehn

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Mr_Terrific said:
I just assumed they keep emphasizing fun for GTA 5 because GTA 4 was anything but fun. It was tedious and boring with the same shit controls as last gen GTA games.
I was going to write something, but basically this. Except for the controls part. I thought GTA4 went do out of its way to make a "real" story, that they left out most of what made the previous ones fun.

At least Gay Toni was kinda funny, but that doesn't change that the main game wasn't at all.
 

MB202

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Also, "Johnny Depp in a stupid hat", SOMEONE'S been watching Escape to the Movies!
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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Please give a name to the concept that we can tell if a game or movie is just blanket checklist crap to appeal to no one specifically but as many as possible. Thta we can tell if the item lacks a soul.

That concept, like the uncanny valley, is fascinating. Perhaps there's already a term for it. But what a fantastic point, Jim.

FYI, No, thank you works in most door encounters.
 

hermes

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Personally, I think the term "fun" is overused. For one, its so vague it means literally nothing. Its like "cool", or "nice". Also, it gets to the idea that all video games HAVE to be fun, all the time, which is not true. They have to be engaging, but not really fun. Is Spec Ops fun? How about Last of Us? Silent Hill? Dear Esther? Walking Dead? We use the word like it was some sort of holy grail, something no game should ever ship without, when in fact its an antiquated necessity ever since video games stop being seen as mere toys on the TV.

Appealing to a mass audience is not the issue with "fun". On the contrary: Mass audience appeal result in games that are bland, but they are too bland to even go against the holy grail of "FUN". You are never going to find a game targeted to a mass market to engage people in any other way that is not "look at all this fun!... excitement!... explosions!". That was the reason with RE6, a game that had 6 playable characters to satisfy the RE4 fan and the Gears fan at the same time; or Dead Space 3, a game that largely abandoned survival horror in favor of "shooter with monsters" and included co-op because people complained it was "too scary" and therefore "not fun enough". The issue with "fun" (that, at least, the previous GTA had) is that it saturated the game with gritty mood to the point fun becomes irrelevant. Some games need to have serious topics, but in the case of GTA, the gameplay depends on randomness and antick displays of violence and chaos. When it juxtaposed it with the moody story it tried to create, the result was a game that feels disconnected.
 

hermes

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Lightknight said:
Please give a name to the concept that we can tell if a game or movie is just blanket checklist crap to appeal to no one specifically but as many as possible. Thta we can tell if the item lacks a soul.

That concept, like the uncanny valley, is fascinating. Perhaps there's already a term for it. But what a fantastic point, Jim.

FYI, No, thank you works in most door encounters.
"Designed by committee" or "Mass appeal" are usually red flags for that...
 

Xeyeled

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Mar 9, 2012
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Jimothy Sterling said:
Agayek said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
The what in my videos?
The shrimp [http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6484/9mj.png].

Though judging by your initial response, it's probably a safe conclusion I'll never get an answer. Ah well, making shit up is generally more fun anyway.
Seriously, I don't recall editing that into the video. Rewatched, couldn't see it.
Jim, did you perhaps go on a bender before the christian lady who wanted to pray with you showed up at your door?
 

Johnson McGee

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Nov 16, 2009
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Wolle said:
Johnson McGee said:
The Dead Space 3 Microtransactions are one of the best examples of bad game design motivated by cash-flow. If part of a game is so tedious or boring that people want to pay to skip it, why include it at all?
I believe you just answered our own question.
Well, yes, I was saying that they're sacrificing gameplay for paywalls through the medium of tedium. If you're trying to make a fun game those elements should be stripped out.