Jimquisition: Gamer Guys

[Miroluck]

This is sexist bullshit! You bigoted sexist!
This is what is wrong with out society, now let me gather money from people and make a bunch of documentaries about sexism in gaming.

What? This sword cuts on both sides

Meh, people are far too much bothered about other people if you ask me. Not just in gaming, in every aspect of our society.
Why cant we just live and let live?

B-b-but, neonit-san, things like that are like, totally perpetuate rape culture and stuff! S-s-stop it, or put up a trigger warning f-for mansplaining! Mulders are always right, and totally not hypocrites!

 

[Something Amyss]

very extreme and feticiuos

Since I'm quoting you anyway, it's "facetious." Not a slam or anything. Just trying to be helpful.

Nerd culture revolved around them being bullied, by pretending the new wave nerds are the same you are simply ripping apart nerd culture.

I hope you're not pretending all "old school" nerds were bullied, because that's just false.

Now whether this culture was good or not is neither of us decision, but essentialy it would be like saying that republicans are liberals because a few of them have said something that does not conflict with liberals, therefore they are all liverals and those liberals who are truly liberal are just crying babies (the "real gamers"). you cant just rip apart a culture and expect no backlash.

Republicans are liberals from 50 years ago.. Have you ever looked at the top 50 conservative rock songs of all times? It includes such conservative groups as the Beach Boys (gay friendly, except Mike Love), the Beatles (hippies who loved the reefer), and The Who (who wrote apolitical songs they tried to co-opt).

but i remember you talking that you have a "girlfriend" so the signals are kinda conflicting. that is unless you flatout lied on podtoid which wouldnt be that strnage to begin with

Jim's already said something, but I only think it's fair to point out he's openly stated in the past that he is bisexual. However, I'm baffled that anyone could think the only alternative was lying. A little disturbed, too.

would you say that a girl, who tatooed a triforce on her arm, goes aroudn touting that "Skyward sword" is the best game ever, but when asked does not even know the name of the main character, is a "real gamer girl" or a "fake gamer girl". and yes, they DO exist. its not really a big issue, like with homosexuality, the clash of thinking blows it way out of the proportion, but to deny their existence is ignorant.

I'd call her what she is: a liar.

Edited to clarify: partially tongue in cheek.

While a lot of you got into gaming and internet culture because you liked it, I got into it because there simply wasn't anywhere else that I could go.

And while you may hate that others are included, I personally hate the notion that this is what gaming culture has to be. Especially since it's never entirely been true. Just the irony that virtually from its inception as widespread technology, the internet has had people screaming about "NERDS" should be a tip-off.

So when someone like Anita Sarkeesian comes along and says to us "Hey, your refuge from the world might be pretty cool if you change everything about it so that it appeals to everyone else" we get absolutely livid.

So livid that you don't even care that she didn't say that.

Please, there's enough wrong with Anita's statements that you don't need to lie to make more. And if you don't have any pertinent criticisms, stop co-opting our legit criticisms with your "nerd culture."

See what I did there?

Why have to codify anything? Maybe she loved the movies for something other than everyone's favourite bounty hunter. If she says she's a fan she's a fan.

Impossible! Everyone loves Baby Fatt! Han Solo sends him Life Day cards!

This is an interesting point of the phenomena, though. People drop it at one question, really, which is annoying. On a bad day, I could probably fail that. In part because I think a guy who gets like three minutes of screen time and fewer than five lines shouldn't be fellated like he is and in part because I'm a space cadet. Doesn't change the fact that I was practically immersed in Star Wars (and Trek) since I was like, two. I come from a long line of nerds.

You either have to have ALL THE KNOWLEDGE or you are assumed to not be a true fan.

I've never met a fake gamer girl. I feel like I'm missing out on a REALLY good in-joke here.

Unless you count PR, most people will never meet one. That's part of the joke. The term is tossed around with such frequency because the standards are ridiculous.

So... there is a general suspicion of these people rather than a hate in general or desire to keep them out? That's kinda weird but hardly worth mentioning.

Maybe we're actually talking about the fighting genre's community. That's make complete sense.

No, it's pretty much the broader community.

As outraged as people were at that neckbeard who sniffed his teammate, nothing he said was that far out of line with what girls are normally told to deal with or get out.

 

[kain78]

My test is "Whats the most annoying mob to fight in Hello Kitty Roller Rescue?"
Gamers play the game not the cover

 

[Something Amyss]

This is sexist bullshit! You bigoted sexist!
This is what is wrong with out society, now let me gather money from people and make a bunch of documentaries about sexism in gaming.

What? This sword cuts on both sides

Meh, people are far too much bothered about other people if you ask me. Not just in gaming, in every aspect of our society.
Why cant we just live and let live?

It does cut two ways, but it looks particularly ridiculous when cutting the "other way" requires relying on fals equivalence.

 

[Neonit]

This is sexist bullshit! You bigoted sexist!
This is what is wrong with out society, now let me gather money from people and make a bunch of documentaries about sexism in gaming.

What? This sword cuts on both sides

Meh, people are far too much bothered about other people if you ask me. Not just in gaming, in every aspect of our society.
Why cant we just live and let live?

It does cut two ways, but it looks particularly ridiculous when cutting the "other way" requires relying on fals equivalence.

Thing is, if you want to point out the stupidity of other "way of thinking", people tend to chose the most extreme cases. Every time someone points out the immature "tru gamers!111" who dont want girls in their tree houses, another person could point out the extremes on the other side. That would include feminists who believe that everyone out there is doing their best to oppress the women, support rape and genital mutilation on males etc etc etc.

In short, my point is - both sides have idiots that tend to overreact and act like a bunch of whiny kids, those people should be ignored. What media tends to do, is put an effing megaphone in front of them, because that generates views.

Also, i fail to see the "false equivalence", could you explain what you mean?

 

[KOMega]

~super snip~

~super snip~

Well, one way to think about it is that internet culture and gaming culture are subsets of the overarching "nerd culture" which seems to be moving in on their territory and becoming what is popular these days. Being something that has become popular, it has developed into something that can appeal to wider audiences of people (and diluted in a few places unfortunately.)

I sympathize with both of your plights and I'm sure someone in the vast reaches of the internet you will (or most likely have, since you are here already) found a place to be accepting of who you are and whatever choice in games you like.
I can't help your situation out in the real world, nor can I truly understand whatever you went through, but I can talk to you through here.

I will also agree that the feminism has been going kinda strong, especially in north america where double standards are holding a lot of social power. But I think it's also something that is in some ways needed, due to a problem with how girls who are legitimately being assaulted/oppressed/undervalued/etc, for just being themselves.

There are some people who take the feminism torch and burn anything that could in anyway "objectify" women, using the term more as a buzzword than an issue. Those people damage the movement more than helping it. Those are the type of people who may tell you that you are assholes for liking a particular game or your personal tastes in people.

But not everyone who supports feminism is trying to take down men or make fun of you. I can only advise that people who do should not be fought against but simply ignored. I'm sure most of Anita's popularity has come from just people taking arguing about her and drawing attention to her.

Ultimately, this is culture thing and not something meant to single any of you out, so you are not at fault. But also the whole affair is, at it's core, just trying to make everyone better and more accepting human beings on both sides of the fence, not just this side. I know a lot of us have a little social ineptitude to various degrees, but I'd be a fool to not want to improve myself in any way, even a little. Sticking to the old community I know is comfortable, but maybe a bigger one wouldn't hurt.

 

[JarinArenos]

Also, i fail to see the "false equivalence", could you explain what you mean?

http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

 

[Miroluck]

Also, i fail to see the "false equivalence", could you explain what you mean?

http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

Well, that's interesting.
Read this:
http://just-smith.tumblr.com/post/52991271199/male-superheroes-are-never-objectified

Quote: "This picture is an example of a popular argument. It has 55k notes, and text posts making the same point probably have even more."

 

[Neonit]

Also, i fail to see the "false equivalence", could you explain what you mean?

http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

Oh yes, its a cool comic about the difference between male power fantasy and sexualization of women in gaming.
Now, how does this relate to the issue at hand? Because i honestly see no line between what i said before and this comic.

 

[Dragonbums]

Correct me if I'm wrong Jim, but I think a lot of people are unaware of the huge shitstorm that happened on your Destroctoid article regarding a Legend of Zelda game revolving around Zelda.

Was filled with a lot of people claiming that it would be a bunch of croc poop and what not.

I think a disclaimer either at the end of your video or in the description would do a lot to clear up the confusion.

 

[Lightknight]

So... there is a general suspicion of these people rather than a hate in general or desire to keep them out? That's kinda weird but hardly worth mentioning.

Maybe we're actually talking about the fighting genre's community. That's make complete sense.

No, it's pretty much the broader community.

As outraged as people were at that neckbeard who sniffed his teammate, nothing he said was that far out of line with what girls are normally told to deal with or get out.

Well, our culture hasn't exactly been known for social aptness, particularly around women. We do have extremely anti-social or just plain awkward members in our ranks. Women are going to have to expect to run into those kinds of people when at nerd-centric events but I don't think there's a general overall culture that believes women must allow themselves to be molested by strangers in some way.

I do think there's a lot of bitterness that some people are holding onto. Like when they find out that just being a nerd isn't what is keeping them from finding a woman now that women are becoming more common in our culture. It's a lot easier to have something to blame like the kind of things you're passionate about but things get more difficult when you've got to accept that your social awkwardness is to blame. So when a guy at a conferrence is the 100th+ guy to walk up to a girl (who has been badgered the whole conferrence because she's a girl) and gets a cold shoulder then these are the kinds of things they think. It's not much different from when a guy dismisses a girl as just being a lesbian if she rejects him even though the kind of mentality that would require that kind of thinking is much more likely to blame.

But do you generally have evidence that our culture as a whole is particularly anti-female gamer? I feel like this would be more some vocal minorities who were personally upset in some way. I only say that because I haven't personally run into this kind of individual and I feel like I would have if it were at all common. Then again, I likely wouldn't befriend individuals who would be that arbitrarily bigotted.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Snip

I'm sorry, I have to disagree entirely. The whole reason we use the label 'Fan' is because its supposed to mean something. If we let people who are not fans, pure and simple, walk around claiming they are and watering down the word, then whats the point in calling yourself a fan anyway? Or indeed arguing anything is truly nothing mattered? Your analogy was faulty because both people are still watching. A better analogy would be those same two people talking about MMA, and the true fan asks if the other saw the last broadcast. The hipster says he loves it, but couldn't believe the Great Dane won best in show because the Border Collie was clearly the superior dog. Get it? They're not talking about the same thing!

Personally I don't watch Dr. Who and more importantly I don't claim to! If a friend asks me if I saw this episode or that, I say no I'm not a fan. I don't go into an attention grabbing song and dance number about how the Doctor and Will Smith uploaded a virus to the Alien mothership and the President led an fighter-jet attack. People would call bullshit, as well they should. If someone like me can call themselves a Dr. Who fan having never seen an episode and indeed never intending to, then no one is a fan of anything. Fandom does not exist anymore because we have dropped the definition of 'fan'. Without it, everyone is just dom.

 

[Phasmal]

Ok, all of you who believe the fake gamer girl thing, ask yourself this, and actually think about it.

Are these fake women MORE of a problem than female members of our community getting a nasty grilling for no reason other than their gender? Are they more of an issue than the hostility thrown at anyone female for speaking about games without sitting the written exam?

I really freaking doubt it.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

While a lot of you got into gaming and internet culture because you liked it, I got into it because there simply wasn't anywhere else that I could go

You could have gone into academia, perhaps become a research scientist or something? I'm pretty sure Stephen Hawking doesn't catch a lot of shit from his colleagues for his disabilities and quirks.

I'm curious as to why you thought gaming and "internet culture" was your only refuge. You could have read books, like we did in the old days.

And really, the initial idea of nerd culture was that it was a place for people like me who couldn't fit in anywhere else.

I don't agree. Nerds are simply people who are intelligent and have strong (often obsessive) interests in things. I don't really believe in the concept of "nerd culture" - nerds are individuals with a whole variety of different interests. That's what makes them special. Conflating them all into a single culture is problematic.

I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying that it's entirely rational, but the alternative is that we lose the one place in the world that we can treated like humans, instead of robots who exist to be made fun of. And if society would just stop fucking treating autistics like we're inferior, then maybe we'd stop being so fucking scared of the general populous.

A good start might be treating other people like humans, rather than stereotypes such as "girls" or "frat-boys," etc. You didn't like it when people threw shit at you, so why do it to others? Sure, it's difficult to lead by example, but people who do so, tend to end up better over the long-term. People will respect and like you for acting decently, even if it doesn't get immediate results.

I really don't care what happens though, just trying to give insight into why some people might be so strongly opposed to the notion of feminism coming into gaming.

I don't think it's so much about "feminism coming into gaming" as being about how gamers should stop acting like such dicks. There's no feminism required to do that.

 

[Miroluck]

Are these fake women MORE of a problem than female members of our community getting a nasty grilling for no reason other than their gender? Are they more of an issue than the hostility thrown at anyone female for speaking about games without sitting the written exam?

I agree that we shouldn't examine female newcomers on their fandom knowledge just because of their gender. I think we should have exams for every newcomer, whether they're male or female.

 

[Phasmal]

Are these fake women MORE of a problem than female members of our community getting a nasty grilling for no reason other than their gender? Are they more of an issue than the hostility thrown at anyone female for speaking about games without sitting the written exam?

I agree that we shouldn't examine female newcomers on their fandom knowledge just because of their gender. I think we should have exams for every newcomer, whether they're male or female.

Who said anything about newcomers? I still get the grilling as if I were a newcomer.
And I'm really sad that people think loving games needs an entrance exam. How is someone supposed to learn if they are shunned for not knowing enough?

 

[Miroluck]

Are these fake women MORE of a problem than female members of our community getting a nasty grilling for no reason other than their gender? Are they more of an issue than the hostility thrown at anyone female for speaking about games without sitting the written exam?

I agree that we shouldn't examine female newcomers on their fandom knowledge just because of their gender. I think we should have exams for every newcomer, whether they're male or female.

Who said anything about newcomers? I still get the grilling as if I were a newcomer.

That's unfair. Entrance quiz would help with that too - if person who passed it would recieve some kind of certificate or ID or something.

 

[Miroluck]

How is someone supposed to learn if they are shunned for not knowing enough?

Well, they would not be banned or anything, they could always learn more and try again next year.

 

[Schadrach]

I'm a bit lost here. Are "gamer girls" really such an issue? I've actually never met any of these caricature gamer girlz that some people seem to be complaining about. What year is this?

They exist, are relatively rare, but draw attention disproportionate to their raw numbers because that's largely why they're there, for attention.

The whole rigmarole about them basically amounted to a tiny handful proclaiming that they absolutely do not and cannot exist, an even smaller handful believing that anyone who accepts that they do exist is claiming that all girls/women interested in games are part of them (IOW that women can't genuinely be interested in games, which is utterly absurd), and the larger swarm of fairly predictable white knights and gender ideologues on both sides arguing regardless of evidence. Oh and a couple of madmen who belonged to the Codename 47 School of Subcultural Membership, where donning an appropriate item of clothing makes you part of a subcultural group.

Really, it's a lot of stink over the couple percent of girl gamers who are Gamer Girls(tm).

Once again, the problem is not the fact that fake gamer PEOPLE are annoying, it is the fact that they DO actually ruin our culture. Remember what happened to Metal in the 80s when it got all popular with the poseurs? Yeah, exactly. The influx of poseurs in gamer culture IS actually ruining the culture itself because their numbers allow them to sway the industry to their shallow opinions (such as "MAKE MORE DUDEBRO SHOOTERS!"). This is what happened to Metal (leaving all the good Metal to be made in Europe and to struggle in the underground in America) and this is what is happening to geek culture now.

So you are COMPLETELY missing the point when you think it's about us just being butthurt for some arbitrary reason that I don't know what you think it is. The point is that these poseurs ARE hurting the culture, and once they exhaust themselves and get bored of it, they'll leave, leaving it devastated beyond recovery and putting us back in the underground with them making fun of us.

History shows this is what happens when an underground culture becomes popular then gets kicked out of the popular scene.

The whole "subculture gets popular, then gets kicked out of it's own scene, then something else becomes popular and what's left implodes because the new guys left for the new 'in' thing and the old guard was driven away" thing tends to follow a pretty consistent pattern. We're what, about halfway through the process now?

You know what, buddy? I think you hit the nail on the head. You see, why can't people like you make an article on the escapist, rather than people such as Jim, from time to time. Some of the stuff you write hits the point so hard, it fucking HURTS!

I fairly recently saw one of the people who frequently post in these threads suggest that sexism in gaming is a "dirty secret" of the community and industry. I disagree with that presumption -- instead I think that the real "dirty secret" of "geeky" subcultures is that ultimately they were built by, for, and around people who are passionate about and delve deep into escapism, and the sorts of people who do that are rarely undamaged beforehand.