Jimquisition: Gamer Guys

[Donbett1974]

This horse corpse has a little life left SO GET TO BEATING.

 

[Detroit]

What's the song playing during Killzone part, sounds really familiar.

Also, you freaking out sounded really convincing..

 

[PhiMed]

I remember him losing his shit about people complaining about "girl gamers" because of one article in an opinion piece on an obscure website before. I wonder if there's been another single, obscure article that jumped off this little retarded bit of diatribe, or whether he just thought he was so clever for arguing against this virtually nonexistent point of view that he felt the need to revisit it.

Behold how I slay the straw man!!! Look upon me!!!

 

[Vegosiux]

Do you really think the male sex has the market cornered on being manipulated and mocked by females?

No. Manipulated by female sexuality and sex-appeal. Do you think women design the Axe deodorant ads? I'd bet it's guys. But it's still ads that say "If you use our deodorant, you're going to get laid with a hot chick tonight."

At least when I say "gurrrl gamers" I don't necessarily mean "female"; I mean "gamers who use female sex-appeal in order to gain an advantage, regardless of what gender they actually are in reality."

Oh, and to be completely blunt, about 75% of "gurrrl gamers" I've run into so far were guys, anyway.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Although to be honest like a lot of these sorts of things I can never tell whether or not the people who originally made the comments are just stupid or trolling.

Question about this specifically.

Why does it matter?
If a person is acting like an ass (to the point were you can't tell if they are acting, or just really an ass) how does that make them much different from a real A-hole?

I apologize, but the whole "oh they're just trolls/trolling" thing just kind of sounds like it's saying we shouldn't care about the bad behavior. Kind of like the old saying "Oh, boys will be boys", ya know?

If they talk like a jerk, act like a jerk, and sound like a jerk. What's the difference really between them and a jerk?

Sorry to bug ya about it. It's just been there for a bit like a bad itch.
May you have a good day, and a better week.

 

[CyberMachinist]

That was a great rant Jim, but you could've added more profane opinions to make your satire more convincing. There was just something....... Missing from there that I can't quite put my finger on.

And I'm quite hysterical that some posters take your argument at face value......... And started a debate on it in one case. Well Satire is a hard thing to understand unless someone else finds out first, I should know.

Although there was some truth in this..... I still haven't seen the end of that destructoid article comment section yet.

 

[JarinArenos]

My entire point here is that your dealing less with geek elitism more than being defensive.

I suppose McCarthy was just being defensive about those damn commies too, right?

Yeah, okay, that's basically the bulk of my argument, but seriously, think about it. There's a difference between there being a reason for a reaction... and there being justification for it. Sure, you can point out what's making some insecure geeks paranoid, but just because I punch you in the face and say "I didn't like your expression" as a reason (presumably because it reminded me of someone who wronged me once), doesn't mean I didn't just punch you in the goddamn face.

 

[Darmani]

Awesome special FX Jim.

That said, after I got done laughing I decided I'd toss out something similar to my usual comments about the overall point of this episode.

Like it or not there are differences between guys and girls as far as perception and manipulation goes. In general dudes can be manipulated through media by an attractive girl, or the belief they are dealing with one, far more easily than girls can be manipulated by hot guys. This is why you see so many companies using spokesmodels, filling events with party girls (or booth babes), or in the case of Japan doing things like getting female voice operators to talk in higher pitched tones of voice (attractive for the culture apparently).

The reaction to female gamers is what it is because of how saturated the market has become with women trying to manipulate guys, to the point where it's become expected. This goes so far as to get girls who pretend to hang out at social events, cons, etc... to create a scene and to also lead guys in specific directions. You even see it at Renfaires and such where the people running booths will hire the cutest girls they can get to walk the grounds showing off whatever they are selling, and pretending to be other tourists. When you go to conventions, and not just gaming ones, you see the same exact thing going on. That's not paranoia either, I've met a good number of women who have done this kind of thing. As a matter of public record companies like Ubisoft formed things like the "Frag Dolls" as a
promotional gimmick to sell their products, which is a variation on this.



On a more personal level a lot of girls, especially young girls, learn at an early age to manipulate guys. Whether it's football or video games, a lot of girls feign interest in whatever guys like to get things out of them. This can be anything from a "Camwhore" trying to get guys to buy her things off her Amazon gift list, to a girl trying to get you to do her homework or be her personal free taxi service.

Geeks, by being social outcasts who really wish they could have hot girlfriends, become prime targets for manipulation. Once you get burned a bunch of times, paranoia of a sort sets in, and it's a fairly justified paranoia.

One thing I will point out that rarely enters into these discussion is that the less attractive and/or more freaky a girl is, the more likely she is to be accepted as a gamer or within the geek culture. As a general rule, if a girl could be hanging off the arm of some Jock or successful/socially apt dude, the more suspicious a geek is likely to be of her ultimate motives.

Obscure gaming questions tend to be "touring questions" in cases like this. Sort of like what a real lesbian might do to root out guys pretending to be lesbians online (lol). It's less about there being a correct answer, or an actual test of knowledge, but rather a matter of reaction. To give an example, if someone comes up to a real geek and asks a question about some obscure Japanese video game, he might not know the answer but the way he inquires about it, and mentions ones that he has plays is what is going to make him genuine. When it comes to some geek girl being asked say "what is your favorite Shadow Hearts transformation?" (if such came up) it's less about her having to have played that game to be real, but more about whether she becomes defensive. A "proper" answer for someone that was ignorant would be to say "I haven't played that is it similar to [insert other RPG where you combine and transform characters, like say Soul Fusions in Persona or Demon Combining in other SMT games or whatever)" or something similar that fits
into the conversation.

To be honest one of the reasons so many people (including me) laugh at pics with geek girls making snappy comebacks "Oh I haven't read the entire run of Batman, but neither have you" is that they miss the point in the course of trying to defend the trend. If you like Batman you might not know every bloody obscure thing he's ever done (like say using a Bat-Monster truck loaded with fully automatic tranquilizer guns) but if your a serious fan you can turn something you didn't know into quite a conversation and that's kind of the point.

Ah well, I doubt many people read this far, and very few will agree with me, but that's my two cents.

When it comes to the acceptance of geek girls of all stripes and physical apperance into the "community" (such as it is) it's not something that can be forced. It will happen over time, but understand that the social intertia of decades upon decades of geeks being manipulated by cute girls is not something that is going to disappear comparatively overnight because more girls are gaming and discovering/getting involved in fandom for real.

Did you just use a whole lot of words to basically say girls are lying, manipulating, untrustworthy extortionists while simultaneously insulting men for being spineless weaklings who's willpower evaporates the moment they see a girl, making them vulnerable to be wrapped around any girls evil little finger?

Certainly that's one way. Or that these toxic and poor reactions aren't due to presumed arrogance but painful experience and that a hand out not chest thump how they are trogs and need to follow the glorious artist/critics to proper revolution.

 

[Vegosiux]

Why does it matter?
If a person is acting like an ass (to the point were you can't tell if they are acting, or just really an ass) how does that make them much different from a real A-hole?

I apologize, but the whole "oh they're just trolls/trolling" thing just kind of sounds like it's saying we shouldn't care about the bad behavior. Kind of like the old saying "Oh, boys will be boys", ya know?

If they talk like a jerk, act like a jerk, and sound like a jerk. What's the difference really between them and a jerk?

Sorry to bug ya about it. It's just been there for a bit like a bad itch.
May you have a good day, and a better week.

Ahhh, Poe's law is in effect firmly I see.

Still, sometimes the best way to parody and make fun of something is to take the defining qualities of that something and wind them up to eleven, so over the top that it has to be obvious you're just taking a piss. Which is what Jim kind of does.

Not that I agree with today. I think what he did today was a full-on strawman, but then again, this may be a geographical thing. Seeing as there's no such thing as a "geek convention" in my country ever, because it's a fucking primitive backwater, I naturally can't relate to how things generally go at those.

 

[Zeckt]

It's been sooo many years since I played Shadow hearts, so let me think Jim. My favorite is the fire one with 4 arms that nods at the camera confidently after the fusion. That thing was cool!

 

[kael013]

Can't tell if episode on gamer girls or dudebros...

Oh well, it makes valid points for both interpretations. Good episode Jim!

 

[Jandau]

I get the impression that Jim might be gay...

 

[Lightknight]

Is there really a significant demographic of guys complaining about gamer girls? It (guys against girls liking the stuff they like) has always seemed to be a very small group that I've never actually come across or is this being extended to gaming regarding the current claim that nerds are bitching about about beautiful or jocular individuals enjoying nerd culture? I haven't met this group either but I'm told they exist. Do people actually complain about these people out loud in public events? I haven't even actually seen a person online in any direct interactions complaining about fake nerds.

Surely most of us grew up in a time where nerds weren't popular and so people joining our ranks would only be a good thing... right? Or is this a group of fake nerds trying to call out fake nerds in some kind of macrocosm of the of the smelt it/dealt it scenario with lifestyles? In any event, I simply haven't met them and am not entirely convinced they exist in any serious numbers aside from the comment section of youtube. They may totally exist and I just don't associate with such people, but I'd expect to have run into a few at least.

 

[Darmani]

Nope, you might want to read it more carefully.

All I've done is point out social trends. With trends you cannot say "this applies to all people" merely enough for it to create the current problems.

In short, enough girls manipulate guys, or are used to manipulate guys, especially those socially awkward enough to constantly immerse themselves in deep escapism, that it makes guys paranoid. Most guys get burned by this, especially nerds, and then stop falling for it but become paranoid, which presents a barrier when you see women becoming genuinely interested in geek culture.

The point isn't so much that this is "right" but that you have to understand why it exists, it's actually the result of a defensive mechanism more than a sense of elitism when you get down to it. That's the crucial problem with Jim's analysis.

Rather than QQing about it on the internet, I think the real solution here is simply time. Girls will break into geekdom and be accepted once geek-boys learn to be a lot less paranoid about it. Screaming about elitism isn't really relevant, this isn't a "No Girls Allowed" sign hung on a clubhouse, but people who have been trained to believe that any girl who is interested in them must have some angle.

Please also note that on a lot of levels this is more insulting towards your typical gamer than girls if you really want to read insult into it, as a key element is people who are by and large social outcasts to begin with. Again not all hardcore gamers ARE totally maladjusted nerds, but enough are for this trend to exist.

Well, ignored and shunned unless they want something. Take a look at the whole "Camwhore" thing that has become infamous on the internet, where the whole schtick is for girls to get to know geeky guys entirely by remote with no chance of meeting them and convince them to give them things. Do all girls do this? No, but it's happened enough geeks have reactively become paranoid, and always look for the angle here, and think "is this person just trying to get to know me so I will do something for them".

Speaking in terms of stereotypes, the cute girls shunning nerds is only part of it, as the cute girls also stereotypically try and get the geeks to do their homework, cover for them, or take a fall for them. Are all girls this manipulative? Of course not. But again, it's a trend that has bred paranoia among those who are on the fringes of society to begin with. When you become rejected for being a geek, it becomes unusually for those who rejected you (which are average people, not just the exceptional ones) to seek out your company unless they want to temporarily make use of you.

... and again, it doesn't matter if it works when it comes to the booth babes and stuff, the intent is obvious and by being obvious it again contributes to that paranoia.

My entire point here is that your dealing less with geek elitism more than being defensive.

The point is that it's an understandable reaction and not something people are just going to shelve in the compatively short time we've seen girls genuinely interested in geek culture. A lifetime of being shunned and rejected does not go away overnight, nor does what decades of social trends have done to the psyche.

The thing is that girls are not being "vetted" out of elitism but as a defensive reaction, something that I think needs to be understood without mockery before you can even seriously address this kind of issue.

It's also not nice, but girls are the comparative newcomers to this arena, and like any newcomers to anything instant acceptance isn't going to happen.

As I've said a few times here, the point isn't so much that it's right, but rather me presenting the issue as it is. As I've also pointed out I think it's the kind of thing that will go away with time, and only with time, all the internet ranting in the world won't help.

It might not be much of a relief, but if current trends continue I'd imagine we'll see gaming be a lot more co-ed by 2030. I think it will take a few generations of youthful interest to adapt. Those who have been beaten down into certain ways of thinking aren't going to change overall, and rather tend to make individual exceptions. However if things continue the way your going you'll see kids coming up from the beginning with both boys and girls being genuinely interested, you'll also increasingly see a trend for "geekdom" to be less shunned, and over time you'll see assimilation even if this doesn't comfort anyone now.

I understand what you're saying here, but does any of it make it okay to gatekeep or assume the worst of every female who appears to have nerdy inclinations you come across? Do you really think the male sex has the market cornered on being manipulated and mocked by females? Please. Growing up, most of the grief I got for any nerdiness or awkwardness came from other girls. The ones who most often took advantage of my naiveté, and eagerness to trust and make friends with them? Other girls. The ones who mocked and spread the most rumors about the games me and my friends played, or the art we did in class? Other girls. The ones who had the sharpest insults and turned the most people against me? Other girls.

Now I'm an adult, and I'm over all that. I don't distrust every girl I encounter who claims to share a few of my interests, or claims to want to be my friend. In fact, I get excited when I come across someone like that. And if they are taking advantage of me, then I'll find out sooner or later and I'll deal with it as necessary.

So the way I see it, this "defensiveness" and the results it brings which you seem to think are somehow deserved are just childish pains that some just can't seem to let go of, and are now taking out on people who do not deserve it. Yeah, people are going to make fun of you and take advantage of you in life. As a kid, and an adult. That happens, no matter what your interests or hobbies are. But you're going to have to decide which person you are more okay with being: the person who trusts until they are given a reason to be untrustworthy, or the person who distrusts and pushes back until they arbitrarily decide they have "proof" enough to trust in someone.

Don't try to tell me your scars are special, or that it somehow gives you the right to treat me like shit. I grew up, and I got over those girls. Now it's time you did the same.

One difference is not that "nerd" is "mainstream" many MANY nerds on the cusp of acceptability want to be like Gabe to Tycho when Ghost comes over in a tizzy. They will turn to their more awkward (by very VERRY specific circumstance) person who isn't an artist, isn't cool, isn't respectable and slag them. The whole CULTURE will get this. Half the insults on geeks now FROM OTHER GEEKS for ruining the cool ones with the association with them. We've been dumped for the fast friends. By everyone even our heroes and community. Add in it the whole "only firnedly when I want something" deal (raise some hand nerds of ALL genders who went through that) and even your own testimony doesn't help. All that says is
I decided I could handle being subject to teasing and rejecting or betrayal. You should too.

And this isn't a matter of individuals being outgoing. This is a matter of a collective of subcultures and outcasts being invaded and under scrutiny and now punished for not meeting standards even when others doesn't (feel the shame for booth babes.. what the receptionists, dallas cheerleaders, actresses, covergirls.. uhm no SHAME SHAME nerdboy for your booth babes and fantasy women)

 

[chronobreak]

So, satirize a legitimate concern to delegitimize the people who hold it. Typical propaganda tactic, but you'd have to be a fool not to recognize it for what it is. Don't let this inane misdirection catch you off guard, fellow real gamers. We fight the good fight. Phonies will be called out and ostracized. Deal with it.