Jimquisition: Go Fish

[WesternGamer]

I really liked this episode. While I can see past the persona in the normal videos in order to "get the message" I find it really engaging when you speak normally without the ranting or script. You should do talks at conventions and stuff.

In regards to the content of the video, I think the problem lies with that when you are typing words at a screen rather than speaking to somebody face to face it is difficult to see them as a person with emotions. While I strive to be fairly polite online, I realise that I can come across as incredibly snarky at times, considerably more so than I ever would in reality, and I occasionally have to remind myself that it really isn't fair to the person on the receiving end.

Some people are simply incapable of the introspection required to notice it, or are surrounded by like minded individuals to the point where that kind of behaviour seems normal. So when they get it pointed out to them they get defensive, because they cannot see what they are doing wrong.

I think a lot of this is down to the internet still being in it's "infancy". People haven't really evolved a proper etiquette for speaking to people online like we do in reality. As such people are much more likely to be a lot ruder than they would be to be people face to face.

Although I have never received the kind of hate people such as yourself and Fish have, to a smaller extent I sometimes get the same kind of feeling when I log onto here and see I have been quoted. Especially if it has been in a heated debate or a controversial topic. I normally ask myself "So who is going to take issue with my opinion now?" and feel reluctant to read what they have said.

So I can only imagine what it must be like for people who get actual harassment.

To be entirely fair, Fish gave no such heed to any form of etiquette in the way he addressed that Japanese freelance game programmer. I'm not sure if you've seen the way he spoke to that guy - and I don't care for or about his opinion itself - but it's not a stretch to believe that he might deserve a little back. Maybe not as much as he got, but he certainly deserved some form of comeuppance.

What I'm saying is, I can see where Jim is coming from and I can see where you're coming from. I don't think Fish needs a "thicker skin" or anything like that. I just think he got what he dished out thrown right back at him tenfold and that maybe he did actually deserve a little of it. He acted like a total douche in front of a global audience, he should have expected that maybe more than just one or two would react to his - to be quite frank - racist and ignorant remarks. And everything I said goes for John Blow as well for that matter. They're both disrespectful jerks.

Edit: In case you haven't seen his behaviour:

Spoiler

He's actually actively been getting these videos taken down, I had to find a reupload.

Holy crap, quit the melodramatic japanophile garbage, nothing he said was racist. Both Blow and Fish have been on record as to there disgust for most of modern gaming, not just japanese games. The question was about modern japanese games, so they answered the question. They never needed to talk about western games, which Blow did include. Sure Fish could have opened up his response better, but his point was valid about Zelda.

 

[Lightknight]

You can hate Fish all you like but the bottom line is this...

Fish makes games.

He has made another game other than Fez?

He was in the process of making Fez 2 so I believe that qualifies as games. Not even sure if you're serious...

Fez took five years to make. Fez 2 was announced last month for the first time. I'd hardly say he makes games. I was asking the question both in jest but also in case there was a game I was unaware of. Since there's not, I'd say he is a person who has made a game and not a person who makes games. Not yet. As is, a one-hit-wonder, taking his money and running.

I'm not saying Fez wasn't a good game. It was/is. I'm not saying he's not capable of producing another. Just correcting a statement for clarification.

 

[Lunar Templar]

So? If he didn't want the abuse he should have had a better filter on his pie hole. I don't and won't pretend to know all the shit he got, but seems like most of it, that I heard about anyway, was in response to him running his mouth, when he hadn't earned the right.

Phil Fish is not Hideo Kojima, Shigro Miyamoto or even a Cliff Blizitsky or Peter ... >.> not even gonna try, the guy that made Fable. He's just some guy who made one game and started running his mouth like he was 'teh b3st th1ng evar!!!' with out having actually proved it, and I have a problem with that.

So do I care his 'feeling got hurt and his gonna take his toys and go home'? lol, no, 'nothing of value lost' I say.

 

[Something Amyss]

Both Blow and Fish have been on record as to there disgust for most of modern gaming, not just japanese games.

And yet, they managed to justify why it was specifically Japanese games that were an issue right in that clip. Not just "since you asked about Japanese games," but "this is why it's different."

 

[Nieroshai]

The thing is, he was an abrasive person to begin with, often insulted other developers, and only did one thing yet acted like we should care who he is. Thereby, he IS "a f*ng hipster," at least as far as onlookers are concerned. Should people stop being an ass to him? Yes. Does one usually call down criticism and anger by insulting others and acting like the top dog? Yes.

 

[Nieroshai]

This was a good episode that had something to say

This was a good comment that had something to say. And will not be flagged for low content.

 

[JudgeGame]

I really liked this episode. While I can see past the persona in the normal videos in order to "get the message" I find it really engaging when you speak normally without the ranting or script. You should do talks at conventions and stuff.

In regards to the content of the video, I think the problem lies with that when you are typing words at a screen rather than speaking to somebody face to face it is difficult to see them as a person with emotions. While I strive to be fairly polite online, I realise that I can come across as incredibly snarky at times, considerably more so than I ever would in reality, and I occasionally have to remind myself that it really isn't fair to the person on the receiving end.

Some people are simply incapable of the introspection required to notice it, or are surrounded by like minded individuals to the point where that kind of behaviour seems normal. So when they get it pointed out to them they get defensive, because they cannot see what they are doing wrong.

I think a lot of this is down to the internet still being in it's "infancy". People haven't really evolved a proper etiquette for speaking to people online like we do in reality. As such people are much more likely to be a lot ruder than they would be to be people face to face.

Although I have never received the kind of hate people such as yourself and Fish have, to a smaller extent I sometimes get the same kind of feeling when I log onto here and see I have been quoted. Especially if it has been in a heated debate or a controversial topic. I normally ask myself "So who is going to take issue with my opinion now?" and feel reluctant to read what they have said.

So I can only imagine what it must be like for people who get actual harassment.

To be entirely fair, Fish gave no such heed to any form of etiquette in the way he addressed that Japanese freelance game programmer. I'm not sure if you've seen the way he spoke to that guy - and I don't care for or about his opinion itself - but it's not a stretch to believe that he might deserve a little back. Maybe not as much as he got, but he certainly deserved some form of comeuppance.

What I'm saying is, I can see where Jim is coming from and I can see where you're coming from. I don't think Fish needs a "thicker skin" or anything like that. I just think he got what he dished out thrown right back at him tenfold and that maybe he did actually deserve a little of it. He acted like a total douche in front of a global audience, he should have expected that maybe more than just one or two would react to his - to be quite frank - racist and ignorant remarks. And everything I said goes for John Blow as well for that matter. They're both disrespectful jerks.

Edit: In case you haven't seen his behaviour:

Spoiler

He's actually actively been getting these videos taken down, I had to find a reupload.

Holy crap, quit the melodramatic japanophile garbage, nothing he said was racist. Both Blow and Fish have been on record as to there disgust for most of modern gaming, not just japanese games. The question was about modern japanese games, so they answered the question. They never needed to talk about western games, which Blow did include. Sure Fish could have opened up his response better, but his point was valid about Zelda.

I never bothered actually watching this but it's possibly one of the funniest comebacks I've ever seen. I didn't actually care about his opinions at all before this but now I'm sold. Jim is 100% right. We need more people Like Phil Fish in this industry.

 

[Mr_Terrific]

You can hate Fish all you like but the bottom line is this...

Fish makes games.

He has made another game other than Fez?

He was in the process of making Fez 2 so I believe that qualifies as games. Not even sure if you're serious...

Fez took five years to make. Fez 2 was announced last month for the first time. I'd hardly say he makes games. I was asking the question both in jest but also in case there was a game I was unaware of. Since there's not, I'd say he is a person who has made a game and not a person who makes games. Not yet. As is, a one-hit-wonder, taking his money and running.

I'm not saying Fez wasn't a good game. It was/is. I'm not saying he's not capable of producing another. Just correcting a statement for clarification.

So you're saying that he announced a game before any planning or allocation of resources? Before any ideas were put to paper? He just woke up one day and decided to announce a game?

Sure...that's exactly how game development works...

What happened was, you tried to be funny and succeeded in making yourself laugh, and then tried to back up your joke with actual comedy. Well done.

 

[JudgeGame]

Fish doesn't necessarily need thicker skin, or at least wouldn't, if he's stop running his mouth off and actively trying to piss everyone off. If he wasn't notorious for comments like Japanese game devs suck, or my personal favorite "suck my dick, choke on it," this wouldn't have ever been a problem. Fish brought the abuse on himself, he has nobody to blame. And honestly, what Marcus said wasn't even that harsh, especially given some of the shit that comes out of his mouth. All he said was what most of us are thinking: If you didn't have a comment on the situation (Xbox One self publishing change), then just say "No comment right now," and leave it at that. Don't get indignant over it.

Also should point out, nobody forced Fish to respond to the abuse he got, but he did, constantly. I've never liked Fish personally, because he's only ever made Fez, and believes it was a revolution for indie games, when it's anything but.

It's wonderful to see people unironically endorsing Sharia law on an Internet forum in the year 2013.

 

[xPixelatedx]

Fish doesn't necessarily need thicker skin, or at least wouldn't, if he's stop running his mouth off and actively trying to piss everyone off. If he wasn't notorious for comments like Japanese game devs suck, or my personal favorite "suck my dick, choke on it," this wouldn't have ever been a problem. Fish brought the abuse on himself, he has nobody to blame.

You know, someone being a jackass doesn't justify other people being a jackass to them.
Be the better man.

That's one of those things that works better on paper then in practice. If no one ever fought back against his idiocy, it would have likely been much worse then it ever was. What is it you suggest people should have done? Ignoring him was the closest thing to validation Fish got, and he knows that. He's the kind of guy that pat himself on the back after every tweet before he even got responses. It would have just been encouraging for him not to face any contrary thoughts or opinions. While I certainly don't encourage or approve of things like death threats, the man taunted the world on more then one occasion. The world is certainly not a hive mind, but Fish attracted the attention of people just as deranged and sensitive as himself, just with opposing views. What happened to him was the only logical thing that could have happened.

There is a lesson that can be learned in all this: Try to be a better person, because the world is likely going to give you back 3 fold whatever it is you contributed. That isn't indicative of this situation specifically, it's just the state of the world now with the internet and all. Sexist, racist and homophobic people are learning this more and more with each passing day, and now general assholes have to watch their backs to. I would call this a positive, because generally speaking, none of these things were ever really ok.

 

[Lightknight]

So you're saying that he announced a game before any planning or allocation of resources? Before any ideas were put to paper? He just woke up one day and decided to announce a game?

Sure...that's exactly how game development works...

What happened was, you tried to be funny and succeeded in making yourself laugh, and then tried to back up your joke with actual comedy. Well done.

This is Fish we're talking about. You have no idea what his process is like and it's not like a half finish game is a game. It's a half finished game.

But that's the thing, no one knows what his process is. No one knows why the previous game really took five years to make. It's still a mystery and may always be such.

A game maker, makes games. Plural, not one and a half games.

 

[Lightknight]

Woah Jim you have a family?

I always just assumed you spontaneously came into being on the internet, probably from a bored god or something.

Oh, that's just Jim, the man behind trenchcoat glove wearing Jim. Trenchcoat glove wearing Jim whom you see in front of the camera was totally spontanteously created.

 

[Baldr]

Fish couldn't differentiate criticism from insults. I've had to fire artists and creative people for the same problem. Every time I point out something wrong with a piece, they would assume I was insulting their abilities and disrespecting them. Everyone is not perfect, you skills are not perfect. There is always room for improvement. Your wrong about Fish not needing thicker skin, part of that is just common sense. Fish has none.

 

[SinisterGehe]

Also people who say that you need to learn to take criticism need to consider this:

Imagine you are masoning a stone wall and for every stone someone comes to you and states that that is one shit wall and you should stop making it.
Then after you have placed the last of 10.000 stones. Someone comes to you and states "That is one shit wall and you should kill yourself for making it" while having no concept about how much work it took to make the wall. You will get the urge of finding the nearest tool you can kill a man with and just making their skull part of the wall as a decorative piece.

As a person who fingers the muse of creative arts as a day job - I know how horrible it is to someone come to state you something blunt stupid idiotic misinformed and possibly a threat you OR YOUR FAMILY FOR FUCK SAKE!

Hell I have a friend, she is professional art photographer and about once a year after an exhibition or exhibition tour around world she comes back and pour herself to me about the shit comments she received from press, internet and people straight at their face or next to her at the gallery.
She has tried to suicide twice thus far.

When you pour your whole life on something just for someone to call it shit, they do not realize that they have called your life shit. That you and what you are is shit.


PEOPLE WHO DO THIS DISGUST ME AND SHOULD HAVE TO GO TROUGH THIS VERY SAME EXPERIENCE AT LEAST ONCE:

I am glad that Fish didn't totally loose himself and do something even worse than just leave the industry.

 

[Gunner 51]

There's clearly two sides to the coin on this one for me. Firstly, While Mr Fish is quite a disagreeable and conroversial figure - he has every right to his opinion. But while gamers also have the right to an opinion, both parties should be constructive about it, or at the very least polite about it.

People who go around threatening rape, violence and wishing death and misfortune on others need to be named and shamed. It is bullying, in it's rawest form and as such should be stamped out wherever it flourishes. The sad thing is, that they all hide under the dark shroud of anonyminity - if this is what gamers do when they think that no-one knows who they are, then maybe free speech isn't quite the sacred and infallable thing it's cracked up to be and as such, should be regulated.

As Jim has been saying, all this hatred, bile and nastiness - it all adds up. It all takes a toll on someone's mental health and when the camel's back has been broken - they will feel like crap, they might commit suicide or have their confidence destroyed.

I for one will not defend anyone's rights to freedom when they use theirs to intentionally hurt others. Whether they are a mere online bully to a fraudster, a rapist or a common murderer - these people have no right to freedom if they use it to hurt others.

 

[kklawm]

Huh, I knew nothing about this until this video. I checked out the trailer to that indy movie and I can't blame people for thinking he was a ponce, that trailer was shamefully poncy. Cringe worthy. But on the other hand as much as I don't like pretentiousness, I dislike more the general gaming fan base. The ones who are vocal, loud and immature. I find it very hard to find communities in gaming which are respectful and polite.

I'm not surprised he left gaming. I'm not surprised Jim is sympathetic. The vocal minority that represents most of the gaming community should be actively shamed for some of the rudeness and insults spouted from various outlets. I have no idea why gamers let these people run wild on the internet and in real life to the detriment of the whole community. I personally am ashamed to consider myself a gamer because of the sort of people (not on escapist) who set the tone of what being a gamer is like.

It's part of the systemic problem that video games are made for and considered only for teenage boys. Tasteless practices like male playable characters and severed booby torsos come partially from the creators perspective of what the community wants.

 

[Rossmallo]

Phil waives the right to whine about being flamed, when he abuses the hell out of everyone he talks to.

If you can't take a punch, don't throw a punch.