Jimquisition: Hardcore Hypocrisy

[Joshua Loy]

I'm not going to spend the time to read the four pages of comments. But hey as an avid gamer, I love simple games sometimes. I love rpgs but sometimes playing things like Earth Defense Force, or boxing or anything else that consist of brainless killing, is just the way to go. I don't kill Call of Duty but that is because of the fans and just a broad personal preferences. I sat at Gamestop for the Battlefield release to be the only one to get Cursed Crusade. I love games and the ones I love are the ones that I don't hear some elitist saying that the game they pick is the best and only real gamers play that game.

The term hardcore gamer only brings up negative connotations among pretty much every other gamer. I have played games for 20 years and I will continue to do so until I die. I still refuse to group my self with those hateful gamers who attack anything that isn't the mainstream.

On Jim's note about 8/10. My favorite games are rated as such, Final Fantasy 6 9/10 (on its re-release with Final Fantasy 5 on Playstation 2) Earth Defense Force (6.9/10) Kengo Masters of Bushido (6/10) Gladiator Begins (6.5/10) I have played for 20 years and only my most favorite game ever is even close to a 10.

Games can be awesome in their own right and should be reviewed on their own merit, not the title.

 

[Sixcess]

how else explain Bioware's desperate whoring to multiplayer other than their acceptance of the stereotype that single player is for nerds, brah... Each is as bad as the other.

How else can I explain that? Allow me to try. ME3 is about an entire galaxy at war. You know how there has been rounds of criticism in the upper echelons of gaming designers and critique about how cutscenes are becoming to be seen as an outdated concept, and gamers don't really like them? And also how cool sounding elements of a game not being present to be played don't really please people? Like how, say, if ME3 came out surrounded by the sell that this is full scale galactic warfare, and never had an option to allow you to experience that, if you wished...

Bioware consider cutscenes outdated? Bioware?

Well, in ME3, you're getting the opportunity to take part in said full scale, interplanetary shitstorms, to show that this isn't just Shepherd and friends. This really is the entire galaxy, fighting for it's very existence. And they're expressing that through gameplay, giving you the opportunity to forge desperate alliances and engage the reapers across the galaxy on more then a single front, dominated by a single team, led by a single man.

Sounds great, only y'know, it's not going to play like that. It's going to play like every other online multiplayer shooter in existence, only not as good.

Multiplayer is a bad medium for storytelling. It's the difference between listening to an audio book read by your favourite actor and hearing the same book shouted out over a public address system by an illiterate 12 year old... who's playing Nyancat in the background.

As for the stupid notion that single player is for nerds, where did you even get that idea?

I didn't get that idea, but it feels to me that the industry did. Maybe there's nothing more to it than them chasing those big Call of Duty bucks (e.g. CoD is the best selling franchise in the world and is mainly known for its multiplayer - ergo if we shoehorn multiplayer into our game it will become the biggest franchise in the world. And if you think that's ridiculous reasoning just look at the money that has been poured into cranking out WoW knock-offs in the futile hope of stealing Blizzard's business.)

Actually, I kinda hope that is the case, because the alternative is that the games industry has a massive inferiority complex and is ashamed of its players. Multiplayer games are played by happy smiling people in well lit living rooms (at least according to the ads.) Singleplayer is played by unsocialised nerds in dank basements (I'd say according to the ads but when was the last time you saw an ad for a single player game that showed someone actually playing it?)

My point, overall, is that whilst there is nothing inherently wrong with 'casual' games and/or non-traditional platforms for those games, there is a danger that the industry will fall so in love with the idea of broadening their audience that they will forget what used to be their core audience - the traditional console and pc gamers.

Bioware are cramming multiplayer into everything that moves right now. Valve said a while back that they're unlikely to ever make a solely single player game again. And just as a game designed as a multiplayer title cannot provide an equally satisfying single player experience, nor can games designed for a casual audience provide the experience that the, for want of a better word, hardcore audience are looking for. Not as the norm at least.

 

[person427]

For some people, or me at least, its not so much the iOS games that are the problem, as it is the systems. First you have the iPhone, which would require a switch in cell phone service just to play games, and second is the iPad which costs way too much (before you call hypocrisy, I don't have a PS3 for the same reason). The clips you showed of this game make it look great, and I would love to play it, but unfortunately it was only released for the "casual" iOS market, on systems I don't feel are worth buying. This is the problem with "casual" gamers, or rather new gamers, they don't realize that their being ripped off, and those of us who do realize are missing out on good games.

 

[SovietX]

It's important to note not all Hardcore Gamers are idiots like this. I consider myself a Hardcore Gamer and enjoy iPhone games all the time. In fact, I have clocked in over 70 hours in Infinity Blade alone. I enjoy both sterile reboots and games that copy classic formulas in new and interesting ways.

I think the term Hardcore Gamer should be linked to someone who is heavily invested in the gaming scene and who is also skilled at all games, rather than someone who refuses change or refuses to accept when change is needed.

Actually, I kinda hope that is the case, because the alternative is that the games industry has a massive inferiority complex and is ashamed of its players. Multiplayer games are played by happy smiling people in well lit living rooms (at least according to the ads.) Singleplayer is played by unsocialised nerds in dank basements (I'd say according to the ads but when was the last time you saw an ad for a single player game that showed someone actually playing it?)

Legend Of Zelda Skyward Sword? Red Steel 2? There are a few out there, surprisingly a lot for the wii, considering how it is always shown as a social multiplayer console. I for one miss Singleplayer games, as it is often those ones that have the most replayability due to more focus on the writing, building a fun game world etc etc

 

[omicron1]

Where I Came from? I came from Nethack, Civilization, and Close Combat; and a less casual set of games there has rarely been. Heck, my mother used to play ZZT on weekends.

And tell me, would you not rather have Battle for Wesnoth, The Bard's Tale, or Aralon - full, open, deep, rewarding experiences - than pretty yet ultimately limited experiences like Infinity Blade?

By all means, keep making Infinity Blades. But do not let them take over. Do not pull a Microsoft here, replacing all your Skyrims, STALKERs, and Half-Lifes with Kinectimals, angry birds, and Fruit Ninja clones. This is the root of the backlash, I feel, and it is vital not to ignore it - that while the extent and vehement nature of the anger may be unwarranted, our "hardcore" games of the modern age may well be superseded by an industry eager to chase this new golden cow. Remember, fellow gamers, the story of the PC, utterly abandoned by Microsoft when they had a more lucrative system. Microsoft are back, sure, but they're back for the casuals, make no mistake. Take note of the fate of gaming on the Wii - buried in shovelware, six feet under in under six years. Watch Microsoft and Sony focus on making their consoles family friendly at the expense of their "hardcore" contingent, and realize that this is not a question of coexistence, but of survival.

 

[Vegosiux]

This thread just proves that gaming is srs bzns.

I'm not sure that's a good thing.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.

PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?

 

[Alar]

I'm really glad that the whole Casual vs. Hardcore has for the most part disappeared; it was the dumbest of all the downfall of gaming crap that I've heard over the years.

Wha? No, it hasn't disappeared at all. I still see it everywhere.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.

PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?

Deus Ex

System Shock 2

Europa Universalis

I dare you to find any iPhone game that lives up to those games in complexity.

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

 

[Idocreating]

Watch Microsoft and Sony focus on making their consoles family friendly at the expense of their "hardcore" contingent, and realize that this is not a question of coexistence, but of survival.

This is the funny thing though, Nintendo's hardcore market was basically the fans of first party franchises. The Marios, the Zeldas. That was all that could keep fans due to the lack of decent 3rd party support and by extension, 3rd party hardcore games.

Microsoft and Sony aren't as reliant and don't have as big a first party status, so keeping 3rd parties is in there very survival and I seriously doubt that they could trip up like Nintendo did.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

Console games have been around just as long and haven't seen that level of depth.

lol

You honestly believe that? You really think that no console game has ever equaled the complexity of a PC game?

That's just...

The...

Forget it.

 

[Cpu46]

So... Call of Duty is casual and Mario Kart is hardcore? Did I wake up in the Bizarro universe or something?

Try playing Double Dash with 4 players going through the final stretch, both racers perfectly in tune with their partners, neck and neck down to the last moment with a blue shell bearing down on you and tell me Mario Kart isn't hard core. I have lost blood over that game.

Oh man, back in the day, my sis and I had a zen-like connection that lead to the doom of many self-proclaimed "pros" at Double Dash. For most levels, I drove, she killed.

Don't be fooled by the cutesy colors: Double Dash can be every bit as cutthroat competitive as any shooter.

My sis doesn't have any zen. What she has are lightning fast reflexes, magma for blood, and a never say die attitude. To date my toughest opponent ever. Me and my cousin are the ones with the near telepathic connection and it still takes the two of them working in perfect unison to knock my sister out of first place whether she is alone or partnered with someone else.

 

[GothmogII]

But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.

PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?

Deus Ex

System Shock 2

Europa Universalis

I dare you to find any iPhone game that lives up to those games in complexity.

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

Except...don't games like Infinity Blade prove that games like system Shock or Deus Ex can already be made on the platform -now-? It's not a matter of lacking the resources or capabilities. For god's sake, Infinity Blade already looks about as damn good as many other modern releases, so it is not an issue of having to grow the technology up.

Hell, they could make a Civilisation game for the damn thing! If I'm not allowed to assume pure laziness, then do tell, what is the compelling reason for more often than not providing such weightless content?

 

[Daystar Clarion]

But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.

PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?

Deus Ex

System Shock 2

Europa Universalis

I dare you to find any iPhone game that lives up to those games in complexity.

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

Except...don't games like Infinity Blade prove that games like system Shock or Deus Ex can already be made on the platform -now-? It's not a matter of lacking the resources or capabilities. For god's sake, Infinity Blade already looks about as damn good as many other modern releases, so it is not an issue of having to grow the technology up.

Hell, they could make a Civilisation game for the damn thing! If I'm not allowed to assume pure laziness, then do tell, what is the compelling reason for more often than not providing such weightless content?

I understand that, it's more a matter of waiting for a dev to commit to something like that for IOS. The tech exists, someone just needs to come along and make that game.

 

[shrekfan246]

EDIT:

Its gonna be funny when Jim has to make a video here defending himself for his mario kart/cod "controversy"

I think this video is relevant to that edit.

This thread is already becoming a brewing flame war. If it weren't for how long I've been playing World of Warcraft, I'd really be surprised by how hateful gamers can be of other gamers.

 

[Therumancer]

The thing to understand here is that those "retro games" are decades old, gaming advanced since then. Those games were simple because the technology of the time couldn't really do much better.

It's also important to note the absolutly punishing difficulty of a lot of those simple games, that is not present in the Iphone games, and that is something important that is missing from this equasion. Games on the Iphone are designed so just about anyone can sit down and beat them with minimal effort and a bit of repetition, compared to many of those retro games where that was hardly the case.

The thing to understand also is that the divide exists not so much because of sneering arrogance on the part of actual hardcore gamers, but because the industry has grown so greedy and corperate that it is not producing much in the way of hardcore games. Nobody would give a crap if all the developers were not so focused on making accessible, casual, games for the lowest human denominator. If we were seeing an equal number of deep, hardcore titles coming out this divide wouldn't exist. The gaming industry figures it can produce those casual games more easily and cheaply, and hit a much larger audience, and this make more money. Hardcore games ARE profitable, but not as profitable as casual shovelware, so shovelware is primarily what we see.

To argue that the iphone or your typical tablet is as valid a gaming platform as a console that was out decades ago, is to defend a gaming not only ceasing to move forward, but literally regressing back to it's infancy in a practical sense.

When it comes to people crying over missing the old school, it should be noted what those people are saying they want are things like "Demon's Souls" or "Dark Souls" modern technology, decent depth, and a reasonably steep learning curve combined with punishing difficulty that makes progress inherantly rewarding. You however see ridiculously few games of that sort, just as you increasingly see very few deep and complicated RPGs.. which traditionally don't have the punishing difficulty, are are (for good reason) complex enough to not be approachable to the casual market. Today all RPGs need to generally be simplified or spliced into some kind of action game that undercutes the entire point of having an RPG to begin with.

Truthfully with so many gaming-media personalities coming out in defense of casual games and gamers, I confess to some growing concern. What should be the guardians of the industrial seem to be falling into line with the mass-market demands, the same way professional reviewers did before them.

Or in short, there is nothing inherantly wrong with casual games, as long as there are enough serious games produced to meet the demand, and really there aren't since the casual market has ultimatly been replacing them. Defending a game as being good as something from the 80s or early 90s is really kind of sad given that we're almost into 2012.