Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

[xPixelatedx]

Now at the very beginning she wasn't being a dick to anyone, she expressed an opinion. Now maybe she made it worse by responding to said trolls, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not being a dick that gets you hate, it's having an differing opinion.

... Which is basically what Jim concluded at the end of the video.

tldr:

She wasn't singled out because she was acting like a dick, she was singled out because she had an opinion.

No, because things weren't this bad at the start, and had it ended with it being a disagreement about an opinion long ago, then this thread, this video and all discussions about her would likely not be taking place now. Of course you will get people disagreeing (and hating) you when you have a differing opinion on the internet, but the internet is a pretty ADD place. That stuff dies down and is forgotten soon enough once the next thing comes along, because at the end of the day most people don't care, as long as you don't personally offend them. But things go into a whole other ballpark one you start baiting and fanning fires. Granted Helper did it only once ([small]maybe a few times? didn't keep track of the whole thing[/small]) but if you piss off internet asses enough, they'll never let it go.

Phil Fish is really bad at interacting with people, especially when they're criticising him, but I don't really get where Hepler violated the 'don't be a dick' rule.

Rather then taking the highroad to the situation last year, she called her opposition 'jealous virgins'. Apparently that stuck as someone clearly didn't want to let it go; someone who likely was a "jealous virgin" (lol).

 

[daxterx2005]

Have to wait a whole week to see a Dragon sex organ....
Challenge accepted.

 

[Atmos Duality]

And here I would hope a journalist would know the difference between "entitled" and "false sense of entitlement".
*Sigh* Sensationalist buzzwords...

Anyway.

The gaming public, anonymous or otherwise needs to lose some of their hyperbolic anger, or at the very least some of the more -*blind*- rage. (emphasis on blind) I realize what I ask for is impossible, given the internet's penchant for turning regular people into self-righteous, raging assholes, but I ask it regardless.
(and no, don't bother posting 'that' Penny Arcade strip in reply to this; we've all seen it)

Right now, I'm an advocate for more market -neutrality- between consumer and producer, largely because I think the exchange is way too polarized right now and it's creating an ever-growing rift in trust between the two.

As heavily pro-consumer as I am, I am not anti-producer because that's just stupid. I want producers to make good games and games they want to create and I want them to be compensated fairly so that the medium grows.

But how often do we see this:
A bad/mediocre game comes out, someone doesn't like the story, and it's suddenly the "worst thing ever".
They jump on facebook or twitter or whatever avenue they have to reach the object of their ire, and start throwing a tantrum.

Or going the other way, the fanatical, rabid, blind defensive loyalty some fans have for their game (Dark Souls springs to mind as a more recent subject) that pushes others away with its elitism and appeal for absolute conformity.

In that, I agree with Jim (even if our philosophy differs overall).
I believe that the market should punish producers who overstep sensible boundaries and twist the consumer's arm to make more profit for no effort, or sell shoddy productions. But I believe the market needs to do this in a rational manner.

And for those of you who are about to defend that sort of thinking: Death threats and remarks of the blackest sort don't suddenly become "cool" because it came from an anonymous nobody saying it. You aren't "cool" for being an asshole; you're just an asshole whose comments serve no useful purpose.

"Oh, it informs them we didn't like the product."
So do sales numbers, and those speak much louder than you ever could alone. But here's the thing: good/smart producers want rational critical feedback; not just hate mail and brown-nosing.

And that critical feedback needs an objective basis. If you really are that angry over a video game plot, type your rant out, read it a few times, and then delete it. No, really. Get it out of your system, calm the fuck down, and realize that it's just a goddamn VIDEO GAME.

 

[wulf3n]

No, because things weren't this bad at the start, and had it ended with it being a disagreement about an opinion long ago, then this thread, this video and all discussions about her would likely not be taking place now. Of course you will get people disagreeing (and hating) you when you have a differing opinion on the internet, but the internet is a pretty sporadic place. That stuff dies down and is forgotten soon enough once the next thing comes along, because at the end of the day most people don't care, as long as you don't personally offend them. But things go into a whole other ballpark one you start baiting and fanning fires. Granted Helper did it only once ([small]maybe a few times? didn't keep track of the whole thing[/small]) but if you piss off internet asses enough, they'll never let it go.

It's the media that isn't letting it go, not the internet.

This issue did die down, then Hepler decides to leave Bioware to be with her family and pursue her own projects, and then this [http://metro.co.uk/2013/08/16/bioware-writer-quits-after-death-threats-to-family-3925970/] get published, and while I won't go so far as to call the writer a liar, their own source clearly states her reason for leaving, and everyone blows up, without bothering to check the facts.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

It's the media that isn't letting it go, not the internet.

This issue did die down, then Hepler decides to leave Bioware to be with her family and pursue her own projects, and then this [http://metro.co.uk/2013/08/16/bioware-writer-quits-after-death-threats-to-family-3925970/] get published, and while I won't go so far as to call the writer a liar, their own source clearly states her reason for leaving, and everyone blows up, without bothering to check the facts.

This.

I imagine even Hepler is a bit annoyed by the sudden media attention when she's just trying to get started in a new job/field.

 

[wisefatmatt]

snip.

Do you really think vilifying people will somehow stop these nutcases? If these people are unhinged enough to think that the best course of action is to threaten the lives of family members over a game patch, or any other reason, that if I say "Hey now, that's way to harsh. You are scum for even saying that" that these idiots will somehow stop being idiots? I just don't see how that would work.

Not all of them, no.

Maybe not even most of them

But even if it gets through to even a tiny number of these people that what they are saying is pure madness then whatever outcry we can manage is worth it I feel.

Ignoring this level of bullying/nastiness does not make it go away.

In my view it is a form of tacit acceptance even.

If you can find ANY evidence that shaming these idiots would convert ANY of them, maybe I would agree, but I just don't see the point of arguing with brick walls. I believe the best we can do is report these people to the authorities and maybe call for bans. Simply telling them they're doing something wrong seems pointless to me.

 

[Saltyk]

Who in their right mind would want to be a part of an industry where you can only be abused? Have your family threatened over a game?

And this is exactly what I feared some people might take from this Jimquisition. What you just stated is based on no facts what so ever. The people who 'get harassed to the point they leave' are in the smallest minority. As of right now, I am pretty sure it just consists of Helper and Fish.

What we should be asking is why Helper and Fish were singled out... even though it should be obvious.

You want to make games and not get such excessive negative comments or attention? Do the same thing you would do in any industry to avoid that outcome: Don't be a dick to everyone! This should be common sense I would think? Helper and Fish would have likely gotten chased off by internet threats even if they worked with movies or TV shows as well. They would have still had twitters, and still turned any negative feedback they got into drama. If this is an industry where you can only receive abuse, then please explain to me why the creator of Dust doesn't seem to have this problem? https://twitter.com/NoogyTweet

He recently jumped into the fray of gaming as well, and he's very much in public view. He's also probably not threaded daily or anything, either, even after making (what 4chan claims is) "a disgusting furry game". It's amazing but it is possible to make games and not be attacked constantly (as hundreds of other devs, writers and programmers will tell you).

It's as if being a nice person means people are nice back to you! Holy crap

Okay... You took my post out of context.

And I think you missed some points.

~Hepler did not quit BECAUSE of the threats. Even Jim said that in the video. So what you are stating that I took away from the video (amazing that you know what I took away from the video better than I do) is untrue.
~Even if Fish was a prick, not everyone who gets harassed is.
~Jim himself has more or less admitted that he got (and probably still gets) harassed. And, as I recall admitted that he did confront the trolls in the past. Till he learned that it didn't help. Even looking in the comments here you can see people implying he only made this video for the money and page views.
~Nothing justifies death threats. Ever.

I would ask what Hepler did to deserve abuse? She was targeted before she did anything other than have an opinion. So what did she do? Exist? And how many people ***** about how much Bioware sucks, now? Or how much Square sucks? Or how much EA sucks? Yes, some of it is deserved. But threatening their family? No. Fuck that noise. Fuck it with a dragon tongue dildo!

Not everyone does get abused. But many who are, don't deserve it. Some are merely doing their jobs or stating opinions. Reviewing a game and giving it a less than superb rating. Disagree with them, if you want. Fine. I disagree with lots of people. Still don't wanna strangle a puppy or anything.

But here's the big question:
What purpose does threatening to kill someone's family serve?

You can say whatever you want to make yourself feel better. Try to convince yourself that they deserved it. Or that it's normal and they should get a thicker skin. But all you are doing is defending the people who would use such disgusting tactics.

And let's be honest. How many writers in any developer do you know by name? Do you ever go and thank them? Do you think anyone thanks them for writing great games? I seriously doubt it. Any programers? Artists? Testers? Anyone at all? So, what I said was valid. You either get no recognition from fans, or death threats for your kids. Those who get praise are few and far between. And Hepler would have probably never been noteworthy if no one ever threatened her or her kids. We wouldn't even be having a conversation if people could exercise some restraint and maturity.
[sub]Also, if the news reports didn't drag up the death threats thing in writing about her departure from Bioware long after they were relevant...[/sub]

And honestly, the same applies to any other medium. Including TV and movies. Music. Even politics. So, it doesn't really matter. But, this is a gaming site. Jim talks about games. Using other media and communities to justify bad behavior in the gaming community is a false argument. You're still just defending the same people and trying to look reasonable. All you're saying is that it was all the victims fault. Shame on them for existing. They should have known better.

In the end, regardless of Hepler, Fish, the media, of what someone has done:

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR DEATH THREATS TOWARDS ANYONE. PERIOD.​

 

[maddawg IAJI]

I'm with you here Jim. I don't care what someone thinks a person did to them, threatening that person's kids is just completely unacceptable and I think it does paint a very dark picture of the current game culture.

How? How does this represent me and other gamers? And yeah I am gonna take it personally. You're gonna slag off a group to which I proudly belong so fuck it, might as well have a pop at someone who can take it. Go on. How does this run off on me or anyone other than the assholes personally responsible?

Did you know that crazy One Direction fans stalk the mothers of the band just in case the boys ever visit their parents and send real death threats to real people for the crime of going out with a member of a boyband that they happen to love?

Does that paint a very dark picture of current gamer culture of music culture, or does it rather just make individual crazy bitches look crazy?

Considering that we, as gamers, have spent the last 20-30 years trying to paint ourselves as normal individuals who are not prone to violent outbursts, I'd said, yeah, this does paint a much bleaker picture.

In fact, what I'm shocked about is how you're playing devil's advocate with these individuals. With the way they act, they should not be accepted as part of our group. We should not recognize that these people are gamers. We recognize them for what they are, entitled brats and when these brats choose to harrass the artists and writers of our medium, we should shut them down instead of acting like a silent majority.

Whether or not you took part in the abuse doesn't matter. You and I didn't speak up and that makes us just as bad.

 

[crazyarms33]

How does this reflect badly on anyone OTHER than the tossers who decided this was a good idea? I'm not sticking up for them, a line was very clearly crossed, but I've seen people tell Jim Sterling they would like to see him and his family die badly for not liking games enough or too much. That didn't cause a stir or reflect on horrible gamer culture, it just made it clear that like all the other things with people in it, there are assholes.

But how is it damaging to the industry that an unfortunate reality of the internet in the 21st century is that if you put yourself out there you will get shit from strangers.

If anythings damaging the industry it's people making a massive stink about this sort of shit only when it affects women.

I will take a stab at this I suppose. I'm an American and I have traveled abroad and thoroughly enjoyed it while trying to respect the other nation's culture. Yet whenever I meet a foreign student here in the States they always say "Oh, Americans are assholes abroad." The problem isn't that they're wrong, the problem is that while there are people like me who travel correctly, everyone assumes that the stereotype is true. The problem is that these tools paint all Americans that way just the way these guys presented the gaming community in a bad light because of their literal dickishness. And because they crossed a very obvious line, uneducated people will see the entire community negatively. The problem is that since this is such big news and people now know about it, if I went up to someone and said I was part of that community, then they would act on what they heard and judge me accordingly. Did I personally do something wrong? No. Did they make me look like a douche for having the same hobby as them? Yes. Vocal minorities always make their respective groups look bad and this is no different.

It's damaging to the industry because as gamers we constantly whine about how all games are turning into "COD clones" and cover based shooters, the ending of this game sucked, the graphics weren't what I expected, et cetera, et cetera. Then when someone does try something new, they get threatened for failing to meet an exact idea of how a game should be done based on one person's(or a few peoples') opinion(s). If as gamers we truly value diversity, then we have to understand that sometimes we won't get exactly what we want and going further, we must be OK with that. If we are not, then we have no one to blame but ourselves. Gaming is a hobby for tons of people and while some people take it more seriously than that, really all games are ultimately toys. But why on earth would someone want to try something new if the consequences of not meeting everyone's exact expectations are death threats to their family? Would you want to push the envelope if you knew that it would happen to your family? I know I would be extremely hesitant at best and would probably not do it at worst.

The massive stink you're talking about is not because it's a woman this time, its because they are talking about her family, specifically children who literally had no bearing on the game at all. You can say she didn't do a good job and that's fine, criticism is how progress is made, but when the victims of the threat are complete innocents whose only "crime" is being related to her, that is ridiculous. Now to be clear I am not saying threats are OK in any circumstance over a game. I am saying that if you disapprove of/didn't enjoy an artist's work and you criticize them for that, I have no problem. Once you threaten the artist, I have a problem. When you threaten a person's family because of a disagreement over a game, I have a serious problem. Does that make sense?

 

[Gatx]

I feel like the kind of people who watch the Jimquistion already know this, and the kind of people who do that stuff probably aren't tuning in to the more intelligent side of videogame discussion anyway, so what is the point of this episode? A bad thing happened? It's not like the majority of gamers are like this, just a very vocal minority, so why are the rest of us getting subjected to these lectures?

 

[K_Dub]

Dumb people being dumb. I'm just gonna try to not associate with people who believe that death threats are an appropriate response to anything. Just...just so dumb.

 

[tardcore]

I'm with you here Jim. I don't care what someone thinks a person did to them, threatening that person's kids is just completely unacceptable and I think it does paint a very dark picture of the current game culture.

How? How does this represent me and other gamers? And yeah I am gonna take it personally. You're gonna slag off a group to which I proudly belong so fuck it, might as well have a pop at someone who can take it. Go on. How does this run off on me or anyone other than the assholes personally responsible?

Did you know that crazy One Direction fans stalk the mothers of the band just in case the boys ever visit their parents and send real death threats to real people for the crime of going out with a member of a boyband that they happen to love?

Does that paint a very dark picture of current gamer culture of music culture, or does it rather just make individual crazy bitches look crazy?

Considering that we, as gamers, have spent the last 20-30 years trying to paint ourselves as normal individuals who are not prone to violent outbursts, I'd said, yeah, this does paint a much bleaker picture.

In fact, what I'm shocked about is how you're playing devil's advocate with these individuals. With the way they act, they should not be accepted as part of our group. We should not recognize that these people are gamers. We recognize them for what they are, entitled brats and when these brats choose to harrass the artists and writers of our medium, we should shut them down instead of acting like a silent majority.

Whether or not you took part in the abuse doesn't matter. You and I didn't speak up and that makes us just as bad.

Uh what? No he isn't playing Devil's advocate against these obviously insane individuals. He is simply stating that people who have committed no actual crime should not be tarred with the same brush as these impulse control issue morons, just because they happen to share the same hobby. And frankly do us all a favor and tone down your "we've done nothing" rhetoric because what the non-batshit insane portion of the community HAVE done, on a daily basis no less, is to NOT MAKE FUCKING DEATH THREATS AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE for insanely trivial fucking reasons, and instead have voiced our opinions politely and rationally. Please stop with the over emotional hyperbole and look at this issue and this particular thread logically. If you think the rational and sane response of the internet gaming community should be to erupt in a furor of vigilante justice over this issue instead of leaving it to the proper authorities and create our own internet lynch mob, then I really have to start questioning YOUR sanity.

The fact I'm arguing this point with someone with a blue moderator name is seriously making me rethink bothering to patronize this website.

 

[klaynexas3]

A woman is threatened on the internet in a grossly disproportionate manner. I was wondering when we'd have a brouhaha about how some stupid people doing stupid people shit and one/some woman/women taking it all too seriously means that gaming is sexist and we're sexist.

BRB, gotta flaggelate.

And in case you're wondering, no I didn't watch past the first minute or so, there really isn't a need to at this point.

Lady Victim, evil sexists, misogyny, gaming needs to change, THE ISSUE, etc.

Edit: Well blow me down, I've since been convinced to watch the video and while the basis of the whole thing has only happened because someone thought it was acceptable to lay into a woman, the content itself managed to subvert expectations. Good work Jim I guess.

Too bad you didn't feel the pressing need to stand up and be the hero we apparently needed when all the men you mentioned were getting threatened with death, but better late than never I guess.

I know I'm going to be the 500th person to tell you this, but he did. Go Fish. That was the episode name for when he talked about Phil Fish quitting. This at least his second episode on the topic, and my guess is it might even be higher than that. This has little to do with the fact that she was a woman, and I think that you're the one here with some bias about all this. Because that's really the only thing I can get out of your comment, and I had the decency to read the whole thing too before I decided to reply, something you also lacked the ability to do due to your own biases about whenever a woman is mentioned in anything ever.

 

[Overusedname]

See now even if we assume there is "a gaming community" generalizing based on a small minority is silly. It's like saying "muslims are terrorists".

Well...stereotyping all has it's origins. It's never just, but it's never without inspiration. When a large portion of a group perpetuates a well established stereotype, it sort of congratulates bigots for being bigots, reaffirming what they already believed. When that stereotype is something bad, it devalues the rest of us, and the medium we love by association.

While I don't want to cater my life around proving bigots wrong, the actions of a vocal minority impact the image of the majority. But beyond setting a good example, I don't think there's much we can do. Bringing up the fact that 'this is wrong' feels redundant to an audience like the escapist. For all the squabbles, this is very smart, progressive community at the end of the day. Ya know...in a statistical way.

The 'muslim's are all terrorist' thing is not just the fault of bigots, but also the fault of muslim terrorists that congratulate bigots for being willfully closeminded, thus hurting a large, encompassing and mostly peaceful religion.

The 'gamer's are violent and cruel' thing is not just the fault of close minded people, but also of the gamer's that send casual death threats and slurs to devs and claim it's 'legit criticism'.

In both cases, both the bigot and the perpetuator are to blame. In no way is that fair, or our fault, but it's true.

 

[Stormwaltz]

(leaving)

 

[thepyrethatburns]

See now even if we assume there is "a gaming community" generalizing based on a small minority is silly. It's like saying "muslims are terrorists".

The problem with that statement is that it isn't applied evenly. When something good happens with the gaming community, whether it is Child's Play or some type of other civic-minded endeavor, gamers are all too eager to rush forward and say "This is an example of how great the gaming community is" regardless of the fact that it is also a small minority. But, when something negative happens such as death threats or other toxic elements, gamers hide behind a deflection that "there is no gaming community and, even if there were, it's just a small minority".

I would argue that if, as gamers, we are willing to take credit as a community for the good, then we should be prepared to take responsibility for the bad as a community.

 

[Something Amyss]

-snipped for length-

One other difference is there's been, to my knowledge, no announcement of death threats towards Blowfish.

Like seriously, I think death threats cross a line, but the closest I've seen is from Fish himself, telling a critic to kill themselves. And, because it's compulsory to point out I'm aware it's a line from Futurama, I'm aware it's a line from Futurama. Changes nothing. It's uncalled for when he does it, and if anyone did it to him it's also uncalled for.

I don't wish death on Fish, I just wish he'd shut up and stop being such an ass. And it seems half of that has happened.

But that is the thing: A lot of these people get hate for making a game. Fish got hate for being an utter douche. He even went off on people like a bloody keyboard warrior. Hepler was guilty of writing for games people didn't like and having an opinion that threatened insecure gamers everywhere that she only offered when asked directly. Hepler deserves no shit. The Call of Duty gang deserve no shit for trying to make their game better. Fish? It's hard to say he doesn't deserve anything. If he wasn't a celebrity on the internet and was just another hipster douchebag flaming people, would anyone rush to defend him? No. Why is it magically different because he made a retro platformer that he thinks is the second coming of Christ?

Marcus Beer had some solid points, by the way. Blow and Fish come off as kind of dickish for lamenting that people actually care what they have to say. Beer could have been less caustic, but given the people involved, who are they to call the kettle black?

 

[Something Amyss]

See now even if we assume there is "a gaming community" generalizing based on a small minority is silly. It's like saying "muslims are terrorists".

A major difference is that we can see a large portion of the Muslim community demonstrably against terrorist attacks. What you get from the gaming community (which is a thing, sorry) is a large body of utter apathy and a lot of shouting down of anyone who tries to condemn it. People are actually pissing and moaning that Jim even brought this up, which would be the equivalent of an Imam talking about the wrongs of suicide bombings and a bunch of Muslims complaining there's no need to talk about it. What gamers have demonstrated borders on equal measure. What Muslims have demonstrated is nowhere near it.

WHAAAAAAAT????

You are joking right Jim? This wasn't an actual thing right? You made this up didn't you?

Yeah, he's joking.

...there's no dragon tongue dildo.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

This thing with DA2 has honestly been going on even before the game started, from the moment they released a few screenshots that showed the game going in a different direction than origins with a different artstyle.

There was even a huge boycot from 4chan and Witcher 2 fans before the game had launched, hundreds of fake 0/10 ratings were given on metacritic minutes after the game launched.


I mean OK, DA2 wasn't the greatest of games, far from it. But it wasn't SO BAD that it deserves all that either, in fact, no game ever is that bad. All this crap that people were giving developers doesn't exactly encourage creativity and change in the industry.

We shoudn't need to give them pats on the pack either, but setting up massive defaming campaigns before games are even launched, because of changes that we don't like, is ridiculous. One day a game might come around with changes that are actually great and fun and exciting and heck, some of the changes that DA2 made were actually good.