evilthecat said:
[
Okay, you've taken the SPRCs
upper estimate on the rate of suicide
ideation among LGBT youth (not the 'homosexual suicide rate', if you've done research you should know better than to be inspecific).
Suicide ideation means basically 'contemplating suicide', and most research doesn't put the number at 40%. It's between 30 and 40 percent, making LGBT youth under the age of 24 between twice or three times as likely to contemplate suicide as heterosexuals. Assuming a similar ratio of ideation/attempt, the actual rate of suicide attempt among young LGBT people would be about 10%, though that probably won't be accurate at all.
If this is how badly you handle one statistic which you probably got from wikipedia (where it is mislabelled as the rate of suicide attempt, so I still don't know where you got the idea that it is the suicide rate), I don't think you have any right to present yourself as having done any research on this.
When you pull this shit, you're just outright lying. It's lying to present an upper estimate as a generally accepted fact, it is lying to present a suicide ideation rate as a suicide rate. What else have you lied about to try and make this ridiculous case?
Therumancer said:
Your typical Pedo doesn't look like the movie stereotype, he's basically the ordinary looking, "acceptable" gay dude, and almost guaranteed he says all the right things about hating pedos, and supports the community in exactly the right and acceptable ways. This is why saying it's not true, and producing statistics gather with that specific intent is meaningless.
No, your typical "pedo" (by which I assume you mean child sex abuser, not just a paraphiliac because we have no reliable evidence in that regard) is someone the child already knows. Usually it's a family member, a close family friend or someone else with unrestricted access to the child, not some dude who hangs around at the arcade. Please learn this before making completely incorrect generalizations.
If the average child molester is a gay man, then explain to me why reported rates of child sex abuse are twice as high for young girls, and that this pattern crops up globally. It's not even confined to a single country, practically anywhere where there is child sex abuse girls are suffering it more, or at least reporting to do so.
If you're talking about "personal experience" then please bother to factor in visibility issues. The guy who hangs around in the arcade may be obvious, but you have no evidence that he's "typical" of child abusers.
I'm not re-entering this discussion, but I want to clarify two things for a related point, about why I'm not even really bothering to try and make a point here.
You sit here and say the 40% suicide rate is stupid, and present it as my information and attack it that way. The thing is, that's not MY information, that's something someone else claimed. Yet here you are jumping down my throat because that claim isn't specific, and is in fact quite ridiculous. It's especially ridiculous in the context I mentioned it in since one of those using the figure (it showed up more than once) did so pretty much in the same breath that they mentioned an overwhelming support for homosexuals that was going to change the world utterly in a couple of decades, the implication being that it's really a small group of people that can somehow force a 40% suicide rate.
I don't bother because your not even paying attention to what is being said, or where that information came from in the course of this conversation. You see a fact that is wrong, or at least presented out of context, and you attack ME as being the one who presented it when that came from YOUR side I've mentioned it largely for th same reasons, where it was actually presented in a far more ridiculous way than what you accuse me of when you get down to it.
Otherwise, I'm going to ask a simple question... how many Pedophilles have you dealt with? I mean seriously. What kind of training have you received for dealing with situations like that? What kind of authority or pseudo-authority did you have that lead to you getting that training and entering into a situation where you would routinely deal with such people?
See, the thing is I used to have to deal with people as part of my job, and did it for close to a decade. You quote a hollywood-type profile about things, and but actually don't know anything because you've never been trained, you don't even stop to think about how the profile YOUR spouting makes little or no sense.
Yes, there is a profile for people who use a relationship with a child to exploit them, however that's FAR less common than you might think. It has a high statistical representation because the risks in exploiting someone your that close to are substantial, leading to people being caught, so there are a lot of people like that to study. In reality your typical predator, sexual or otherwise, will hunt outside their immediate area, to increase the chances of getting away with it. A fairly random attack with no pre-existing ties makes the criminal FAR harder to catch especially if they have nothing on record to begin with. Your typical "stalking" is nothing like in the movies either, while these long, drawn out period of cat and mouse with a killer or rapist learning everything about their victim to be make for compelling drama, the simple fact is that crimes work best the less variables are involved. You go to a high traffic area with children left along, watch one for a short period of time, and then take action. Most people who do this kind of thing, tend to be charismatic because they need to inspire confidence to be able to get the victim in position. Your typical pedo rapist isn't going to be that creepy loner, prison inmate stereotype, pathetic fatso or the quiet guy nobody notices, like on TV. it's going to be a guy people haven't generally seen before, but left behind a generally positive impression. If he's openly gay he's going to make the guy who makes it seem like a good thing, or at least acceptable in his case (ie the guy bigots in denial will be referring to when they say "I have this gay friend, but otherwise...). It's about inspiring trust, acting quickly, and moving around.... Predators, real ones, very rearely shit where they eat so to speak because it makes it too easy to create a pattern.
The thing is though that with all of the politics and civil liberties out there proof, especially if the guys are careful, can be tricky, and even in cases where your right about the accusation and win, there can be bad press involved. At the casino where I worked forever the casino really cared less about protecting kids than making money, as long as nobody got raped so they wouldn't deal with liability issues, they really didn't care. Groups like NAMBLA which were at the time hiring a lot of lawyers to defend pedophilles were creating bad press and such for people who caught them behind the scenes. As a result the casino didn't really want to see many Pedos caught and put into police custody, and have the resulting battle fall back on the casino. Indeed from a certain pragmatic sense the liability from an occasional failure/rape and bad press if it went public, was worth the price of the press that could come from say 10 Pedos being actually caught, even if they don't cause all kinds of problems by claiming discimination (and being falsely accused) with or without groups like NAMBLA, at the very least they are going to have press out there making it look like they are a magnet for sexual predators (which they are, the fault of management for not forcing parents to have their kids attended despite policies, it cares more about the money the parents are spending than the safety of the children which creates the whole issue of how Security is forced to deasl with the situation because we're the guys who take the blame for anything that happens).
The point of the above is that if you catch a dude trying to lure a young boy into a stairwell, and chase him off, your typical security guy not just at a casino like I worked out (the casino is simply copying general policies intending to avoid the fate of businesses that got themselves eaten alive by liability in doing the right thing due to the way the system works nowadays) isn't going to have him arrested, and that's something predators tend to keep in mind in selecting their hunting grounds as well. Buisnesses that will put press and risks of liability ahead of seeing justice done. The guy is going to be chased off, perhaps even walked out of the building with a security escort, and then we might not see that one again specifically, but at the same time there is no record of him being caught anywhere official because the idea is for nobody to know it happened.
The thing is that Code Adam training, will usually come along with a pretty solid reality check on what your employer actually wants you to do with this information. As a security officer for any big place, not just a casino, your not a cop, your there to protect your employer and that means their money. Their concern about the safety of kids and stuff is entirely based around a fear over liability, and how far your going to go is dependant what benefits the employer most. Employers generally want security to keep things quiet, and make it so nothing happens, any kind of noise, catching someone or not, is by definition bad. The employer wants to forget there is a security department (and not shockingly that happens, do your job too well and they cut you back until you don't have the people to do your job... then they realize it was only quiet because you had enough security and the right policies, things quiet down again, and then the beancounter starts to think your a waste of money again.... ad infinium).
Now yes, people can play semantics about gay and pedo not being synonomous because I'm not adding more paragraphs explaining my thoughts there yet again, and that I know the differance, and am simply writing it that way for the sake of simplicity, or whatever else. It doesn't matter because I'm pretty much done, but you might as well no waste the time feigning ignorance just the same when the intent should be painfully obvious, and if it's not read the thread to this point to catch up (nobody seems to).
The point I'm making is that while you can call me a liar, what I say about how gay pedophilles act, their numbers in relation to say straight pedophilles, and similar things, all comes from experience and training. As in people have taught me what to look for and how to deal with this (in a certain context) and I have gone out doing my job, seen this with my own eyes, not just someone elses assurances, and dealt with real pedophilles trying to lure real children, for real rape. Don't tell me it's not so, because I know otherwise. If you don't believe me, then we really have nothing to say to each other here anyway
I'm done, save argueing the specifics of anything above for another time (it will doubtlessly occur). The point is that if your going to get into a serious topic, at least try and verify what the guy your talking to is actually saying. Don't put someone else's factoid into my mouth, and really if I tell you I'm speaking from experience, it's kind of pointless to try and throw out a profile. I mean either your wrong, or I'm going to say you are as I'm already saying that I'm speaking from experience, and if you think I'm lying, why bother? I don't deny the profile exists in this case, just that reality has shown it's not as applicable as hollywood makes it out to be. Of course anyon who has learned anything about the old VICAPS system and it's later successors (ie profiling in a very basic way, it wasn't the focus of what I was learning in school) should probably be able to recognize the problem with some of these profiles especially when they have been around for a while. For example there used to be a lot of focus on the "least effort" principle, which is to say that a criminal who wants to committ a crime can be typically found around the area of the crime because someone who say wants to rob a store isn't going to go to a store accross the state any more than they would if they wanted a gallon of milk instead. There is a certain kind of logic to that in specific situations, but for the most part someone who actually plans a crime like a rape, murder, or robbery and isn't absolutly desperate is going to want to do it someplace where they are less likely to be recognized. You don't generally rob the store you shop at every week because even with a mask someone might recognize or remember you far more likely than someplace you don't normally go. If your a pedophille sexual predator you don't go after a kid from the local school or one you know well as a general rule for the same reasons. Likewise guys who do this kind of thing are usually ones confident enough to get away with it and have the tools. Guys who can make people trust them, not some creepy old dude in a van cruising along saying "hey kid, want some candy" or just trying to grab a kid in an arcade and wrestle them into a bathroom or whatever.
