Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

[Gorrath]

The following response is towards the "fine gentlemen" that believe they are being objectified just as badly as women are in video games, comic books, etc...

I can never fully understand the level of self-delusion that some people have to truly believe that males are treated like sex symbols or objects of desire on the same level as women. I hate to break it to you, but its not the same!

And don't give me the B.S. that topics like these fall under the "beating a dead horse" category. Regardless of what Monxeroth might have to say about it, these topics keeping coming up is because they are still a problem within the games industry and in other forms of media. I don't care how big of a blanket you've got on hand, using it to hide the elephant in the living room does not make it go away. These are serious problems that need to be addressed and resolved with urgency. It's a problem that neither side cannot ignore forever.

What Jim did today, and what he does every week on the Jimquisition, is taking the first step in solving a problem... and that is admitting there is a problem.

The majority of female characters in games are not properly portrayed in video games.

Starting off by presuming that an argument comes from self delusion isn't going to change hearts. Some arguments do, in fact, stem from delusion, but I tihnk one should consider that there may be an argument here that does not.

This whole argument was purely about sex or sexual attraction, but about objectification, sexual or otherwise. Also, simply claiming, "...it's not the same," also doesn't provide any insight.

What is a 'proper' portryal of a female character in a game? What is the 'proper' portryal of a man? Is a sexualized female body improper? What about a sexualized male one? Is a female character without agency improper? What about a psycopathic male who can only solve problems by shooting it with bigger guns? What about a 'nerdy' male scientist who also has no agency whatsoever and needs the thick-necked meat-head with guns-a-blazin' to save him too? Is he objectified because of his lack of agency?

I'd argue that there is no proper way to write a character. I would argue that there is much greater room in gaming and other mediums to expand to other tropes and characterizations.

 

[Groenteman]

Same goes for popular media. Sure theres a place for DoA and Gears of War, just like in movies theres a place for porn and cheesy action flicks, books have place for erotic novels and whatnot, etc etc. This does not mean we want a whole bloody medium to be just porn and muscly peabrains (and those who do want that, why the hell are you complaining? there not every going to be a shortage of those)

Also romance novels are a genre, not a medium. Gaming is a medium, shooters are a genre. 'male-centric' is not even an essential part of shooters. Try and think a bit harder about your analogies.

The medium has several genres that serve to men.FPS and Fighting Simulators for example. Just like books have a genre that serve females specifically.

Thats not to say that video games as a medium cater exclusively to men. I mean if the idea is, that there are no game that exist in this world that have good female characters, women would like, then thats truly not the case. Games like Tomb Raider, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Resident Evil 6 + Revelations, Beyond Two Souls, Remember Me have good female characters, and most of them are recent or upcoming.

Nobody asks for these games. They just exist. And now with the advent of female gamer demographic, this type of games are only going to increase. Organic growth. Do you think teenage girls demanded chick flicks to be made?? No. People make them still because there is demand.

Also, Look at Wii games. Now I wont say it serves to females, but the number of female gamers on Wii is massive, even more than men [80% of Wii owner are females]. Now they must be doing something to attract the female gamers, I am sure.

Also I find it tough to believe that 47% of gamers are women even though the games exclusively cater to men.. I dont think such a large number of women are playing games even though games dont even consider their needs.

'The argument here' in my case was the two posts I quoted. Wasnt realy trying to argue for anything beyond that.

Though I suppose if we do go on about a 'supply and demand' argument, I should realy start with saying that AAA games dont 'just exist'. The moon 'just exists'. AAA games are designed, reviewed, revised, and funded according to market demand, so yeah, they are 'supplying' what people are 'demanding'. Like 'supply and demand'.

Or at least they should be, but arnt. Which is probabaly what the argument we should be having with this whole gender issue. First off, shooters are not just for 13 year old boys. Older men play em, girls play em, but especialy the latter have to deal with the constant gratingly obvious 13-year-old-boy fantasy drivel which realy is not an essential component of ANY genre of gaming.

There is a significant demand for better narrative in general, and protagonists/plots a female player can identify with specificaly, which is not being supplied. The fact that there arnt so many female Gears of War players is not a cause, its an effect of this decrepancy.

 

[Redd the Sock]

It depends on the guy and the girl in question. Dante didn't go shirtless for the guys to look at his abs.

As someone that has used that argument in the past, I do so more to address the issue of self image: specifically that stereotypically men don't look at Kratos and think they need to hit the gym while an attractive female character seems to put off women that can't live up to the big boobs and thin waists. It isn't that I don't get where women are coming from, but I think the wrong message gets taken away. I'm a 35 your old hairy guy with minor acne, crooked teeth, and a beer gut, and I don't get self conscious when I see Dante, or Brad Pitt, or a muscle bound guy in tights in a comic book. I'm not always happy with everything about me, but I know I don't have to live up to some ideal, especially one that can only exist digitally, or through plastic surgery, starvation diets, non-stop exercise, and drugs.

But an element behind these gender topics is that yes, a lot of women still feel the need to live up to the Lara Crofts, and the response is to minimize their usage, not to try and break through their personal beauty myth. I'd like to think that a something women could learn from the guys in these debates is that you don't need to have your self worth dictated by how much you match something designed to be an unrealistic fantasy, and that the problem we do have with the beauty myth, exists less because of the myth's existence, but on people that do seem to think that their fantasy should be reality. Don't attack Lara Croft for being attractive, or anyone that finds her attractive. Attack those that expect you to be her, especially if that someone is yourself.

A line of argument I saw a woman use in another one of these topics in fact. She basically said more or less the same thing, that she doesn't have a problem with these fictional characters as her sense of self worth isn't determined by attractive characters.

A point I can certainly understand and get behind, as I also don't look at any fictional characters and think they are an idealised person I should try and be like.

But I don't think that is the reason for why a lot of people don't like them. I think the reason is because they believe that it reduces women's importance down to their physical appearance, that the characters personality, thoughts and feelings are seen as unimportant, whereas their physical appearance is.

I can definitely follow that line of argument in regards to characters who are practically nothing beyond "sex appeal" such as Rachel from Ninja Gaiden 2; but I also frequently see people who object to women being sexy, even if they are also an amazing character beyond that. Which to me is not a fair judgement to make.

In a thread yesterday somebody used Jill Valentine as an example of a good character who wasn't just there for sex appeal. The rebuke was that she is now more sexy, and that's a bad thing. As if being more sexy negates all of the positive traits about her character.

It suggests to me the idea that a woman cannot be taken seriously if she is also sexually attractive, and that is something I find pretty offensive.

Yeah, I've complained a lot on that issue this year. Lara Croft is everything a feminist might like in a character (smart, strong, independent, confident), but she can serve as a pin-up so that somehow doesn't count. This thread's already delved into how sexiness of certain Mass Effect Characters somehow negates what they otherwise are. It isn't just offensive, it's rather hypocritical how the side that doesn't like being judged by their appearance can somehow reduce attractive female characters to just their T&A factor. I've actually seen an ironic turnaround with this. I read columns by a female gamer (Liana Kerzner) that has commented, even recently, how difficult to be taken seriously as a writer it is if you also cosplay Ivy Valentine by your own choice.

Of course I think some of the dismantling of female characters this way is to avoid acknowledging that the "boys club" industry has and still does try to appeal to them however imperfectly, and that this untapped demographic isn't showing up for it. They have to write off these attempts because if they exist, then it isn't the industries' fault for what it's become, it's their for not supporting games that even leaned in the direction they wanted the industry to take. The industry won't change for internet whining so much as sales, so we might need to hold our nose and buy multiple copies of Remember Me. (and I truly dread this discussion if that game flops)

 

[Corran006]

I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".

I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.

The problem is the genders are not equal. Men are not judged by how big and strong they look in the real world. Woman are still judged based on how attractive they are. Lets face it men are running the show in almost every area of life that matters Government, supervisors and CEO's and other management positions.

 

[mdqp]

I get that a lot here on the escapist

Shamefur Dispray!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself, this meme got stuck in my mind, for some reason.

But we should get you a PR guy, if that happens too often!

 

[RA92]

Tell us jim,
would you be happy if the main lead was hideos rotting zombie woman with zero sex appeal?

Are you asking for ugly women in anti hero roles for the sense of diversity?

Sounds neat. I'd be curious about the game.. question is would i rent it let alone buy it?

I wanna give that question to everyone at the forum honestly.

If it's a good game, why not?

Some of us don't buy things purely on the sex appeal of the cover girl, y'know.

 

[the December King]

Why do I often come here to hear about games and entertainment, and end up leaving feeling like someone has tried to make me feel bad for being a white male? Did I do something wrong in playing certain games and liking them?

Quit being disingenuous. Jim didn't criticize games that have idealized male protagonists or its audiences. He was criticizing those who try to equate objectification and idealization.

I dunno, man. I got the impression that it was targeted at a particular demographic. Almost as usuall.

And quite honestly, I'm made uncomfortable with idealizations as often as objectifications. If I end up just as bemused by the abs of the protagonist as I am the bosom of an NPC, then I can certainly see where some people might see an equivalence.

 

[Gorrath]

I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".

I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.

The problem is the genders are not equal. Men are not judged by how big and strong they look in the real world. Woman are still judged based on how attractive they are. Lets face it men are running the show in almost every area of life that matters Government, supervisors and CEO's and other management positions.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is absolutely research that indicates that how tall and good looking men are directly correlates to how much they earn and what positions they are hired/promoted to.

 

[phoenixcalm]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this show because this show is based upon a single individuals critique where they put forth their ideas about a subject.

The real issue is those whom, for whatever reason, have a belief that they "feel" they must defend as a universal "truth" are justified in doing so in any manner they see fit.

When you treat your 'opinion' as a 'statement' without a frame-work to justify your logic than you simply trying to "convince" someone of your "point".

Argument vs Discussion

To argue is the attempt to convince another party of your point or a point on a subject matter. There are certain rules in place when you argue, things you can say, places you can come from; this also applies to Discussion.

So. When Jim, and other writers on this site, present their ideas on these subject, they are subjecting them to discussion not for argument.

Because they are not trying to insert an ideology you do not have to be offended by what they say. You can disagree and that is completely okay, however, if you are offended and experience anger than you are only hurting yourself.


You have to stop and ask yourself why some of you feel so vehemently upset when new data is presented to you and because it conflicts with a previous idea you had that you must "defend it!" and "attack!".

It might be what you are watching on TV :O

And to those who may read this and are already fuming, this is about you. Calm down. Possibly seek help, because this isn't normal behavior.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I'm sorry, but the "the women have to look like for what they do in the game to be realistically feasible" does not work.

I guarantee you, a woman who could 'realistically' do all that Lara Croft does has 0 boob - all muscle (thighs and butt for that matter as well). A real life woman who can do what Lara Croft does has the same body as Kratos. Well, minus the willy.

Actually I disagree with that. Have you seen pictures of world class climbers or gymnasts? I haven't played the game but from what I have seen of the gameplay those would probably be the closest to what she does. To be that athletic and acrobatic you have to have a high strength to weight ratio, and as such having bulky muscles would be if anything detrimental. The top female climber from the last bouldering world cup was Anna Stohr, and her body is not at all like Kratos's:

Spoiler

And I'm not going to show pictures of any of the people I know, but that body type is completely typical of the strongest female climbers in the world. I only know a single strong female climber who puts on large muscles. From what I've seen of olympic gymnasts it's pretty much the same with them.

Sorry if this was already mentioned, I haven't read the couple pages after your post yet.

OT: Good points all around in this video, they might not all be new arguments, but I'll take what I can get if it'll stop people from citing Kratos as an example of male characters being sexualized

 

[Holythirteen]

It I want to buy these games it's my choice and you have no right to tell me what to buy with my money.

Well we can say whatever we want, but yeah if you like it you should totally buy it, our moaning shouldn't stop you if you don't agree with our opinions.

But at the same time we will criticize the hell out of its flaws, possibly convincing others to not buy it, question what they want out of their games, and perhaps even question whether their attitudes towards these issues alienate other gamers from games that they could enjoy just as much as we do, if certain aspects were done better.

 

[Gorrath]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is absolutely research that indicates that how tall and good looking men are directly correlates to how much they earn and what positions they are hired/promoted to.

Actually there's evidence that tall men get paid more and are promoted more often than short men. Political parties are also more likely to chose the taller candidate to run for president.

So Invader Zim's leaders being the tallest isn't too far from how politics works on planet earth.

Indeed, that's exactly what I was saying. I was responding to someone who said that women have to deal with their looks determining tehir pay grade in the real world, and seemed to be suggesting men didn't face this problem. There is research that indicates that men do indeed earn more if they are tall/handsome.

 

[RA92]

Tell us jim,
would you be happy if the main lead was hideos rotting zombie woman with zero sex appeal?

Are you asking for ugly women in anti hero roles for the sense of diversity?

Sounds neat. I'd be curious about the game.. question is would i rent it let alone buy it?

I wanna give that question to everyone at the forum honestly.

If it's a good game, why not?

Some of us don't buy things on the sex appeal of the cover girl, y'know.

I know.

But the likely hood of someone getting that right vs "it was a noble idea.. " and we'll spend the next 10-20 pages of a forum lamenting on what might been.

Why is it so tough to digest that a game might have a female character that isn't conventionally beautifully? Would it really hurt the industry if we had female characters as diverse male ones? On one side we have designs as diverse as Solid Snake at an advanced age, Mario, the entire cast of Team Fortress, Kratos, all those brute and effeminate and hulking characters from fighting games... and on the other end we have just that same slender, athletic, beautiful female build.

Expand your horizons, man.

 

[RA92]

When I see these kind of threads, I'm happy that I live in Ukraine where none of normal adequate humans are giving a damn about not only objectifying women as equal, but objectifying anything at all.

You see: when you live in a almost-ideal world, people are getting some faggy shit in their heads, instead of being productive members of society.

Stop giving a damn about some stupid stuff and make the your own things: make indie games, or a comic, or a film, or a zoethrope where your Main H is whatever the hell you want, instead of whining

When you can stop throwing words around like "faggy shit", come have a civil conversation.