Jimquisition: On-Disc DLC Cannot Be Justified
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
Recommended Videos
The main issue here is separating "additional content" from "actual content that we told the publisher was additional content so that they would get off our backs about having additional content". It is a judgment call that is not easy to make sometimes, but the main reason we have it is because a few developers buckled into those demands (or hell, even CAME UP WITH THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE for all we know) for perhaps favor or additional funding, and then after seeing the results, abuse their position of power to pressure the developers because they feel like they have to jump on the trend to either stay in business or get more money.
"Company X is doing this. Why aren't you doing this? Perhaps if we hired another group, they would do what needs to be done to compete, and we wouldn't need you anymore, or we'll cancel your project and hand your funding to our other projects who are all complying with these requirements (example: capcom's entire corporate philosophy). Well? It is your decision.
"
"Company X is doing this. Why aren't you doing this? Perhaps if we hired another group, they would do what needs to be done to compete, and we wouldn't need you anymore, or we'll cancel your project and hand your funding to our other projects who are all complying with these requirements (example: capcom's entire corporate philosophy). Well? It is your decision.
"
If you think "fuck you and gimme all your monies" is all that is on the mind of the people who put work into DLC, I have nothing to add to this discussion.[/quote]Sunrider84 said:
This goes for "on DISK-DLC" which seems like a big slap into the face of paying customers and fans who support the game. This post wasn`t meant to offend you (sorry if i have) but on disk justification just makes me jump and i can`t get rid of this cloudy red vision. I just can`t understand people who suppport this (at least not from the paying end of the line).
I have always the choice to not buy games with locked content or heavy DLC support but i really hate the thougt that this whole on disk thing might give developers/publishers i like funny ideas for their next games.
APC(Additional Purchasable Content, because we desperately need a new acronym already) would be accepted and even loved by the consumer base if video game companies weren't doing what they usually do- MISHANDLING THE SHIT OUT OF PR/MARKETING. Which seems like a better idea:
(Prior to release)Company A: We finished your awesome game, and we have 10 more characters to add. too! Look forward to seeing future APC for Shtreet Fighter x Shmekken!
(Prior to release)Company B:[Doesn't say anything, just puts the 10 characters on the disc and expects everyone to ignore that and pay for it whenever they decide to unlock it for them]
Game companies would have such an easier time if they didn't act evil, manipulative, and duplicitous.
ALSO: The idea of 'it has to be on the disc' is bullshit. Even cheap-o downloadable fighting game Deadliest Warrior(awesome game btw) says 'no, stop. Download this little patch so that people who bought our DLC can use it.' when you try to go online in it. BlazBlue did this too, if I'm not mistaken. Mortal Kombat handling it so poorly is completely baffling, but that doesn't meant there aren't better ways for doing it. Because I am willing to bet if you have an Xbox and are paying for a fucking Gold subscription you damn sure have a hard drive, memory card, or flash drive to save your shit. A tiny little character patch isn't going to break the bank.
(Prior to release)Company A: We finished your awesome game, and we have 10 more characters to add. too! Look forward to seeing future APC for Shtreet Fighter x Shmekken!
(Prior to release)Company B:[Doesn't say anything, just puts the 10 characters on the disc and expects everyone to ignore that and pay for it whenever they decide to unlock it for them]
Game companies would have such an easier time if they didn't act evil, manipulative, and duplicitous.
ALSO: The idea of 'it has to be on the disc' is bullshit. Even cheap-o downloadable fighting game Deadliest Warrior(awesome game btw) says 'no, stop. Download this little patch so that people who bought our DLC can use it.' when you try to go online in it. BlazBlue did this too, if I'm not mistaken. Mortal Kombat handling it so poorly is completely baffling, but that doesn't meant there aren't better ways for doing it. Because I am willing to bet if you have an Xbox and are paying for a fucking Gold subscription you damn sure have a hard drive, memory card, or flash drive to save your shit. A tiny little character patch isn't going to break the bank.
While I normally at least respect Jim's opinion, I kind of think he came off as whiny himself this time. The pictures of the baby kind of seemed ironic in a strange way.
Here's the thing, DLC where all or the majority of the content is on the disk is, in fact, horseshit. I don't disagree with that fact. The Street Fighter Vs. Tekken (I think that's the game at least) problem where they said the DLC had to be on the disk for compatibility is flat out stupid. As are things like the Dead Space 2 items which, while you weren't able to buy them, were still in the game files.
But that doesn't mean that all DLC that has content on the disk is like that. There are things that the developers have enough time to include while not being able to finish the entirety of it without delaying the full game (pissing off many fans in bigger series). Things like walk animations, or obvious spots in menus for characters are there because they're finished and there's no real point in not including them. Many games have their DLC planned out after all. That saves download bandwidth and makes it so those kinds of necessary parts don't glitch out other aspects of the game. Then you can download everything else, such as the additional environments, additional dialog and options if the game has it, and things like where the character will actually be later on. So there might be content on the disk, but that doesn't always mean that it's finished content that's just locked off.
Of course, with companies trying to flood out DLC that could have obviously just been included (Saints Row 3 being one of the worst in my opinion), I can understand a lot of the automatic hate DLC gets. Things like the entire fighter or extra content being ready to go but just gated off doesn't leave much room for excuses. But that doesn't mean all DLC with some content in the data files or on the disk are bad. Just that some companies are jerks who we shouldn't buy from.
Here's the thing, DLC where all or the majority of the content is on the disk is, in fact, horseshit. I don't disagree with that fact. The Street Fighter Vs. Tekken (I think that's the game at least) problem where they said the DLC had to be on the disk for compatibility is flat out stupid. As are things like the Dead Space 2 items which, while you weren't able to buy them, were still in the game files.
But that doesn't mean that all DLC that has content on the disk is like that. There are things that the developers have enough time to include while not being able to finish the entirety of it without delaying the full game (pissing off many fans in bigger series). Things like walk animations, or obvious spots in menus for characters are there because they're finished and there's no real point in not including them. Many games have their DLC planned out after all. That saves download bandwidth and makes it so those kinds of necessary parts don't glitch out other aspects of the game. Then you can download everything else, such as the additional environments, additional dialog and options if the game has it, and things like where the character will actually be later on. So there might be content on the disk, but that doesn't always mean that it's finished content that's just locked off.
Of course, with companies trying to flood out DLC that could have obviously just been included (Saints Row 3 being one of the worst in my opinion), I can understand a lot of the automatic hate DLC gets. Things like the entire fighter or extra content being ready to go but just gated off doesn't leave much room for excuses. But that doesn't mean all DLC with some content in the data files or on the disk are bad. Just that some companies are jerks who we shouldn't buy from.
I never said DLC was bad. In fact, I said I liked it in theory.
It's when companies try to wheedle a free-to-play model out of a full-priced game that it gets on my nerves. It's the excuses that piss me off.
It's when companies try to wheedle a free-to-play model out of a full-priced game that it gets on my nerves. It's the excuses that piss me off.
Okay, so, someone may need to clarify something for me. Is the entire "From Ashes" DLC from Mass Effect 3 "on disk dlc?" As in, was all the content for it on the disk? If it was, then in that case I would agree with Jim.
However, from what I heard concerning the entire "From Ashes" dlc was that Bioware developed it while the game was being shipped and then added some compatibility on the disk. I remember having to actually physically download the expansion and install the dlc, I don't THINK it was already on the disk, but I'm not too sure. If this is true, then I don't really have a problem with it. If Bioware chose to make new content while waiting for it to be shipped, then I just don't really understand what the complaint is, it isn't "locking off" any of the games actual content, it's just something extra.
However, from what I heard concerning the entire "From Ashes" dlc was that Bioware developed it while the game was being shipped and then added some compatibility on the disk. I remember having to actually physically download the expansion and install the dlc, I don't THINK it was already on the disk, but I'm not too sure. If this is true, then I don't really have a problem with it. If Bioware chose to make new content while waiting for it to be shipped, then I just don't really understand what the complaint is, it isn't "locking off" any of the games actual content, it's just something extra.
It's odd that they choose to waste disc space in this graphic heavy race by putting DLC there. Couldn't they just force players to be matched with others in multiplayer that match the content they do? It's been done before so it's not that difficult.
Of course, one may argue about having all the planned DLC released for the game on the disc so late adopters can unlock it without the fear of the server it would be downloaded from going offline. Just put it in a seperate pack or a GotY version or... something. Just don't put it on the disc at launch.
Of course, one may argue about having all the planned DLC released for the game on the disc so late adopters can unlock it without the fear of the server it would be downloaded from going offline. Just put it in a seperate pack or a GotY version or... something. Just don't put it on the disc at launch.
In some ways, I think this is what is wrong with the entire game community and culture. No matter how much game publishers keep bending gamers over the rail and forcing them to take it, we just keep handing money to them. Until gamers stop engaging in this addictive junkie culture with gaming (the bulk of which, in my opinion, was created and propagated by the gaming press) and exercise some self-control to actually not buy from a game publisher that consistently mistreats them as customers, game publishers will continue to feel free to engage in nefarious practices and find any number of outlandish rationales to justify those practices. Gamers need to learn to just say NO! Don't pirate, but definitely don't buy it. No amount of rationalization can save a publisher from a $0 revenue stream because the entire market finally decided it had had enough and simply will not buy.tmande2nd said:
Y'know, episodes like this are why I really miss Extra Credits being on this site. Has anyone noticed that often both the Jimquisition and Extra Credits tackle the same subject, and even when they're on the opposite sides of the argument, they both manage to bring up valid points in their own right?
You wanna see the real No Right Answer, watch Extra Credits coupled with The Jimquisition (no offense to the fine folks at No Right Answer...)
I admit, I myself can't say much about DLC because...well...I hardly ever use it. I think I've only ever downloaded about 5 bits of DLC in the history of all my consoles. Two of those were the Saints Row 2 bonus missions...and I can't even remember the other ones, but I think it was just free stuff.
You wanna see the real No Right Answer, watch Extra Credits coupled with The Jimquisition
(no offense to the fine folks at No Right Answer...)I admit, I myself can't say much about DLC because...well...I hardly ever use it. I think I've only ever downloaded about 5 bits of DLC in the history of all my consoles. Two of those were the Saints Row 2 bonus missions...and I can't even remember the other ones, but I think it was just free stuff.
On one hand we listen to full-of-money EA backed developers whine about development costs of a DLC at time of launch and on the other hand we have awesome moves like that from CDProjectRed, where they give you additional content, voiceovers and quests for Witcher 2 for FREE [http://en.thewitcher.com/enhancededition/] almost a year after relase.
In the past after-release support wasn't something optional and payable - it was expected and we usually got new content with free patches (see UT, Quake 3, etc.) - there's not reason for that to stop now. Apologizing EA for money grabs for already very expensive games just rewards that kind of money-grabbing behaviour - there's no reason for a developer to not release additional content developed in time to release for FREE.
In the past after-release support wasn't something optional and payable - it was expected and we usually got new content with free patches (see UT, Quake 3, etc.) - there's not reason for that to stop now. Apologizing EA for money grabs for already very expensive games just rewards that kind of money-grabbing behaviour - there's no reason for a developer to not release additional content developed in time to release for FREE.
A bunch of people have mentioned the Extra Credits video about Mass Effect DLC, which is really interesting but doesn't quite share the same topic as Jim's talk.
The Extra Credits folks were talking about Day 1 DLC, which not only doesn't have to be on-disc but could be justified as more than a money grab if the team worked on it between certification (after the game is already locked down) and release.
Disc-locked Content, on the other hand, had to have been created at the same time as the main development. And I really wish companies wouldn't do this because it takes time and resources away from the main game.
The Extra Credits folks were talking about Day 1 DLC, which not only doesn't have to be on-disc but could be justified as more than a money grab if the team worked on it between certification (after the game is already locked down) and release.
Disc-locked Content, on the other hand, had to have been created at the same time as the main development. And I really wish companies wouldn't do this because it takes time and resources away from the main game.
If I don't want a piece of DLC, I wont buy it. If the game is "incomplete" to the point of being not worth it because too much vital content is being chopped off to be sold as DLC then I won't buy that game. Saying "if the choice is between having extra content that I can buy if I like and not having that content exist for anyone, I'd rather the content not exist at all" just strikes me as goddamn insanity. As for on disk DLC in particular, what's the harm? It's marginally more convenient than having to wait for whatever you're buying to actually download.
If the industry as a whole is becoming more reliant on DLC that's because so many people are buying used (in which case the developers don't see a dime). I may not admire all of Cliff Brzezinski's work, but I certainly think the perspective of someone who works in the industry might be more valuable than an arrogant sack of cartilage that fancies himself a commentator.
Anyone who's looking for a take on the subject from someone who hasn't had their brains and colons reversed, check out this short from Extra Credits http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/mass-effect-3-dlc
In another way, I'm sort of glad Jim Sterling made this video, his last few videos had seemed alarmingly reasonable and I was afraid I'd stepped into some kind of mirror universe.
If the industry as a whole is becoming more reliant on DLC that's because so many people are buying used (in which case the developers don't see a dime). I may not admire all of Cliff Brzezinski's work, but I certainly think the perspective of someone who works in the industry might be more valuable than an arrogant sack of cartilage that fancies himself a commentator.
Anyone who's looking for a take on the subject from someone who hasn't had their brains and colons reversed, check out this short from Extra Credits http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/mass-effect-3-dlc
In another way, I'm sort of glad Jim Sterling made this video, his last few videos had seemed alarmingly reasonable and I was afraid I'd stepped into some kind of mirror universe.
Last time I checked Mr. Bleszinski had to rely on getting paid by ye evil publishers until he comes up with something less restraining, so I take his utterings RE: DLC at the face value of, say, five grains of salt and a cup of spittle.
I think I understand the business model of smurfberries and other in-game purchases. I can't quite bring myself to like it, though. As has been discusses earlier, on here and elsewhere: If DLC is additional content adding to an otherwise complete game as some mini sequel or another complete mission or another case to solve - hey, that might actually be fun and registers as good use of the powerful infrastructure we consumers have for gaming purposes.
I got all the additional DLC to both Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and, all technical issues aside, I really did enjoy that trip to the wild side. Some bits are just unforgettable. In fact, I could have done with some more. With most other games I tend to accept the fact that 'complete' editions come out some months after an original release, so I got some GOTY editions even though, in some cases, I got weak prematurely and bought the original, 'lacking' edition. In a way, it's the same (mal)practices we got to love in, say, DVD movie sales. Release 1: just the movie you wanted, t'a. Release 2: Oh, yeah, the first one was cut to lower the rating (to up the sales)... so, get the unrated release, please. t'a. Release 3: Oh, about that unrated cut... yeah, there were some bits missing, sorry 'bout that. Here, have the Director's Cut. It's even got commentary and stuff. etc... etc... etc...
I have no udder but I feel milked.
As long as I still have the option of selling the original copy to someone who doesn't crave much for the additional content, and doesn't get punished by having to buy a so-called 'online pass', I don't mind much of the general asshattery going on. I just think it's bad style and stinks... and it actually creates customer dissatisfaction and pushes piracy, in the end. "Never bite that hand that feeds you", yet the industry keeps nibbling and niggling all the same.
Thing is, with all the patching and DLC bonanza going on, you just know all our modern games come with an expiration date. And that's what made me go back to the simple joys of old cartridge-based gaming. Plug in, turn on, tune in, enjoy.
Having an artificial product fragmentation just for the sake of milking it can only mean one thing, really, and that's not to groan and moan about it, but just not to buy it.
I am looking forward to the next Tekken and hope they remain strong and resist temptation. Street Fighter, as it stands, it pretty much dead to me.
I think I understand the business model of smurfberries and other in-game purchases. I can't quite bring myself to like it, though. As has been discusses earlier, on here and elsewhere: If DLC is additional content adding to an otherwise complete game as some mini sequel or another complete mission or another case to solve - hey, that might actually be fun and registers as good use of the powerful infrastructure we consumers have for gaming purposes.
I got all the additional DLC to both Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and, all technical issues aside, I really did enjoy that trip to the wild side. Some bits are just unforgettable. In fact, I could have done with some more. With most other games I tend to accept the fact that 'complete' editions come out some months after an original release, so I got some GOTY editions even though, in some cases, I got weak prematurely and bought the original, 'lacking' edition. In a way, it's the same (mal)practices we got to love in, say, DVD movie sales. Release 1: just the movie you wanted, t'a. Release 2: Oh, yeah, the first one was cut to lower the rating (to up the sales)... so, get the unrated release, please. t'a. Release 3: Oh, about that unrated cut... yeah, there were some bits missing, sorry 'bout that. Here, have the Director's Cut. It's even got commentary and stuff. etc... etc... etc...
I have no udder but I feel milked.
As long as I still have the option of selling the original copy to someone who doesn't crave much for the additional content, and doesn't get punished by having to buy a so-called 'online pass', I don't mind much of the general asshattery going on. I just think it's bad style and stinks... and it actually creates customer dissatisfaction and pushes piracy, in the end. "Never bite that hand that feeds you", yet the industry keeps nibbling and niggling all the same.
Thing is, with all the patching and DLC bonanza going on, you just know all our modern games come with an expiration date. And that's what made me go back to the simple joys of old cartridge-based gaming. Plug in, turn on, tune in, enjoy.
Having an artificial product fragmentation just for the sake of milking it can only mean one thing, really, and that's not to groan and moan about it, but just not to buy it.
I am looking forward to the next Tekken and hope they remain strong and resist temptation. Street Fighter, as it stands, it pretty much dead to me.
That is some crazy idea. Specially because Capcom already advertise the shit out of the idea that SFxT was final and there wouldn't be a vanilla version soon down the line.Hitchmeister said:
I think Jim is missing the point here. DLC is here to stay, and its not a bad thing. It provides with extra life to a game, sometimes even months after release and its a better way to stop piracy and used sales than most DRM measures. The point he is trying to make (that on disc DLC shouldn't be a problem to consumers only because developers decided to include it) is akin to saying "having lag is not justifiable as a problem, because nobody forced you to include online in your game".
The problem is that Capcom's "PR reasoning" about how to have it locked on disk is the same as other ways to distribute it, is insulting to my intelligence. It sounds like an excuse or a justification more than an explanation. I can deal with technical explanations about compatibility issues, bandwidth or size of updates. I can't deal with the excuse that its the only way to do it. If you prefer to, tell me its the only way YOU find out about how to solve it; but don't sell me a patch to a problem as if it were a feature...
And that without even counting Azura's Wrath issue, which is just unjustifiable greed.
