Jimquisition: On-Disc DLC Cannot Be Justified

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FoolKiller

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Feb 8, 2008
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Qitz said:
On-Disc DLC will go away, not because of Jim, but because it's cracked within 24 hours of the games release. As it should be really, I don't care if the EULA / TOS says, I paid for the disc so I'm going to do whatever I want with it. If that includes using it as skeet, yay for me.
Actually, I've pointed this out before but you never have to worry about the EULA for on disc DLC. The companies argue that when you buy the game, you buy the license for certain content and the EULA applies to that. As you didn't buy the DLC, you never agreed to the EULA regarding the DLC, so it's yours to do with as you please.

You're welcome :)
 

Epona

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The problem is that we don't usually know what was pulled from the game to be sold as DLC. When we take up the attitude that this DLC is ok and this one isn't, we are really telling the publishers to do a better job of hiding their greed. We really need to start saying NO to all DLC if we expect this stuff to stop.
 

Qitz

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FoolKiller said:
Actually, I've pointed this out before but you never have to worry about the EULA for on disc DLC. The companies argue that when you buy the game, you buy the license for certain content and the EULA applies to that. As you didn't buy the DLC, you never agreed to the EULA regarding the DLC, so it's yours to do with as you please.

You're welcome :)
That I did not think about. Though I would have figured that most EULAs have DLC covered in some "Amended Product" line or some such. If not I'm sure they're going to start considering it.
 

reachforthesky

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)= That was an excellent debunk of the compatibility argument, but it seems like he completely glossed over the idle dev team argument.
 

darksakul

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Jun 14, 2008
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Dryk said:
It's really strange this only ever seems to happen at companies with these types of business practices. Companies that value their customers can always seem to find something for their staff to do.
Then my reply is, You have no idea who corporations work in the real world.

Big companies care nothing for there employees (at all), there first legal, moral and contractual obligation is to their investors FIRST. Charities and stuff like that is 3rd or 4th on there priority list, employees are DEAD LAST. First thing you learn in business management is you have to do well before you can do good.

And things like niceties cost money, Game companies are not in the business of just hiring and paying programers, testers. engineers, artist, write4rs and so on for the benefit of those staff members. They are there to churn out a product for that company and make a profit from it. And if they found a way for the consumer to pay for that same product twice, there doing better than everyone else apparently.

See the thing is, its not that the President or the CEO needs to get paid, it is the fricking stock holders, the loan officers and various other investors that want there GOD DAMN MONEY.
And if they do not get it, the least of your worries is laying off staff or pissing on ungrateful gamers whop think they are entitled.

If you do not like games with on Disk DLC, stop buying those games (or ignore the DLC).
Don't play Mass Effect, Street Fighter (and other fighting games), Modern Warfare, Skyrim, Halo or Insert annual sports title here. DLC is here and it is HERE TO STAY, stop acting all like a bunch of entitled twits and suck it up.
 

Dryk

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Why should I be complacent in a system that rewards people who buy shares in a company, encouraging them to make a massive short-term spike in profits by running every one of their assets into the ground then jumping to the next ship just before it sinks?
 

Knuckles

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Dryk said:
Why should I be complacent in a system that rewards people who buy shares in a company, encouraging them to make a massive short-term spike in profits by running every one of their assets into the ground then jumping to the next ship just before it sinks?
Because if you do not, the communist will win.
 

HellsingerAngel

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So... what? What was this entire episode all about? On-disk DLC exists? No shit. People are upset about it for reasons they can't prove? No shit. I'm just not sure what you're getting at Jim. That you want all DLC to be downloadable which you've presented absolutely no evidence that that's the superior model for distributing this content. That you want DLC content to just simply not exist? All you've done is regurgitate facts that we already knew and then went "WHA WHA WHA" the rest of the episode. Poor form and very indicative as why you need to quit while you're ahead because you seem to be running out of things to talk about and/or have switched to the Yahtzee model of "I'm an entertainer, not a person with an informed opinion".
 

Kyprioth

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This week, I agreed with Jim Sterling and disagreed with MovieBob...

Swings and roundabouts.
 

Mouse One

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The fact that so many get upset about on disk DLC, but not at downloadable DLC, indicates that we haven't really gotten used to the notion of paying for intellectual property yet. WHERE the information is makes little difference, really. You didn't buy the disk, so much as you bought the information on the disk. I know, I know, you're all pointing at it and saying "But the DLC is RIGHT THERE! I therefore own it!" Not unless you paid for it.

Same day DLC is a completely different issue, of course. But really, it's more about the rising price of videogames than anything else. No one blinks twice at "collector's editions" with additional content, after all. And so long as game can be played without the DLC, there's no reason (other than cost) to get one's knickers twisted over the notion of paying for extras. You can drive a car without a stereo system, but if you want one installed by the dealership, you're going to pay more for it.
 
Dec 16, 2009
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Jimothy Sterling said:
On-Disc DLC Cannot Be Justified

There are explanations for games that ship with downloadable content already included. There are, however, no excuses. While you may have a reason, you do not have validation, because on-disc DLC is a problem willingly created by the industry, and it doesn't have to exist in the first place. You cannot justify a problem arranged by design, no matter how much you try and pretend it's out of your hands.

This week, the Jimquisition takes on one of this generation's growing aggravations, and you won't even get charged for it.

Watch Video
god damn luv ya Jim. thanks for putting what i couldnt, into words
 

JohnnyDelRay

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All I wanna know is, what the hell was wrong with the old expansion packs? Even earlier DLC seemed to resemble this system of downloading/buying additional content for the game that was already installed on your PC or whatever.

Now they turn it into extra cashing in at launch date. Wasn't the idea of expansion packs to extend the life of the original product they had spent so long working on? Was it not making enough money or something? Or just a way of somehow making it feel like if you don't buy this DLC you are missing out on something major or more integral to the original.
 

jpoon

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Very much agree on this Jim, on-disk DLC (and most DLC in general) is a scam.
 

Atmos Duality

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Bostur said:
Eric the Orange said:
Extra Credits makes an interesting counterpoint.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/mass-effect-3-dlc
Paraphrasing one of ECs counterpoint:
Publishers needs to get DLCs out quickly before people lose interest in the games.
That's indicative of a much larger problem: That most games just don't have any staying power anymore.

I apologize for the length of this reply, but there's a lot of forces at work here.
Feel free to skip to my conclusion.

Back before games had "DLC" they had "expansion packs" instead, the idea was to hold the player's interest for a longer period of time, SOMEHOW. Some games did this legitimately by providing more content, but some padded out the game's length (traditional repetition or worse, grind).
Some of them had strong modding support, and those were the sorts of games that lasted a LOOONG time (Morrowind and UT99 spring to mind).

That's in part because these games weren't designed to be beaten in a day then swiftly forgotten so they can get to the sequel. Why the change? Well, in part because of Tech/Graphics Inflation and the inflation of development costs, but an even larger part is just that the publisher wanted to make "blockbusters" where the games played in part like movies, first attempted (badly) by FMV games, but later re-pioneered by industry shakers like Squaresoft (Final Fantasy 7) and Bungie (Halo).

Gameplay and new mechanics began to become peripheral to cutscenes and glory-shots. Today, your generic shooter is likely to feature sweeping camera shots, fully-voiced cutscenes that last several minutes long, and "Baysplosions", often in the middle of a level.
(Which has its own profound effects on gameplay design, but goes beyond the scope of this already too long argument)

What I'm laboring towards is this: not only the amount of content the average game contains has decreased over time, but the TYPE of content has in part, taken away from gameplay. So in order to bring the play time closer to its old standard, they release DLC.

But just to make DLC a more appealing choice, most Publishers have gone out of their way to keep user-created-content out of their games. This is a big reason why consoles are the primary market over PCs; it gives the publisher a virtual monopoly on all post-sale content.

You think that single-player-only Phalanx rifle in ME2 was patched into the core game code for COMPATIBILITY? How well do you think it would sell if some amateur could mod something similar (or BETTER) into the game themselves?

The growing emphasis on multiplayer is done to keep people playing longer without actually adding much more content. Multiplayer is variant enough to accomplish this by itself as long as it doesn't suck.

In fact, all the elements Bioware added to ME3 seemed to be playing for time in ways that didn't require them to add to the overall story. This is the only rational reason I could think of for Bioware to add multiplayer to their narrative-driven trilogy, and so late in the game at that. It certainly wasn't because the combat might be good for it! Mass Effect's combat is childishly easy and bland to begin with.

(Yes, there are exceptions like Little Big Planet and the Bethesda mega-games, but they are by far the minority among AAA games.)

So the end result is this: Shorter, flashier games, backed the publisher flexing their monopoly power to shove as much DLC out as quickly as they can because they know their game isn't likely to sell strong for very long.

ASIDE:
Consider this: Used Games have higher resell value under such a system because gamers are far more willing to just buy it, beat it, and sell it back. If nobody perceives that the games will be worth keeping, then they have more reason to put more used games onto the market, and more quickly.
 

Look-a-Hill

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Nov 18, 2009
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A little question, what was the game in the middle? With the big swords and silly demon knights... and Yoda...?
 

Knuckles

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Look-a-Hill said:
A little question, what was the game in the middle? With the big swords and silly demon knights... and Yoda...?
I think that was Soul Calibur 4, which came with Yoda on the Xbox 360 and Darth Vader on PS3.
And if I remember correctly, you could later buy the exclusive characters through a DLC on the other system.
 

Robert Riter

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Feb 10, 2012
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I think he should have focused more on his last point; for a while it sounded like he was ranting against DLC in general which is NOT the problem.

The fact that on-disc DLC is NOT DLC is the issue. It's premium unlockable content and it should be called as such. It's a bad thing but at least if you call it that, you're being honest about what it is. The dishonesty factor is the biggest problem.
 

Korolev

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Jul 4, 2008
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There is no excuse for it, other than the fact that the developer and the publisher want to make money.

That's hardly a crime. Especially given that they make luxury items, not necessities.

Yeah, we consumers obviously want things to be cheaper, and we can call the publisher out when they make up a lame excuse to try to justify increasing the price. But at the end of the day, there are no "villains".

Of course companies want to make more money. They're companies. That's natural for them. What, you think they make games out of the goodness of their heart? Are you 10 years old? They make games because they want money.

Obviously they want to raise prices as high as they can. Obviously we want prices to be as low as they possible can.

But don't get this confused with IMPORTANT issues, like Water, Sanitation, Electricity or Education. Overcharging for THOSE things IS a crime, because they are basic human necessities. Video games are NOT basic human necessities. They're entertainment. Luxury items. Being able to even afford one console game a year means you are in a privileged position compared to most people on this planet.

So yes, while Companies are obviously money-hungry and make up lame excuses to try to get more money, the outrage is phoney and betrays the fact that most people who make a big deal out of it don't have much real life-experience, or have genuinely suffered. If all you have to complain about is "evil" video game companies putting silly DLC out on discs, buddy, you don't know what really matters.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
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Grey Day for Elcia said:
People who complain about on-disc DLC (a misnomer) don't understand how video games are made.

Rather simple really.
... Did you even watch the video? I am guessing you didn't.

We understand how they are made, what we also understand is that they are deliberately made this way, where they [game developers] try and act as if it's not their choice.
 

F4LL3N

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May 2, 2011
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I disagree to some extent. If the original game is actually good and actually worth the money spent, I wouldn't care if they try to squeeze out a few extra bucks. But they actually have to deserve said money rather than giving us crap.