Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

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Jimothy Sterling

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DiMono said:
The other thing that you didn't touch on is that in a video game, killing someone is generally very fast. You shoot them in the head, and down they go. You cut off their limbs, down they go.
Blink and you can miss it, but I did point out that murder can be impersonal while rape really can't be. It was VERY quickly made though, because I have less than ten minutes of video time (any more would be egregious) and so can't cover everything in detail.
 

lord.jeff

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I'm okay with rape being evil but games have gone further then just stopping rape but stopping sex from being in games all together remember the first Mass Effect controversy and hot coffee from San Andreas, we haven't just labeled rape as taboo, we've labeled almost any actual sex as taboo and that's the real problem to me.

Also I want to point out the giving a villain his just deserts for defense of murder falls apart when playing games like Saints Row and God of War.
 

Mikeyfell

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Yes, I agree with you 100% on every point.

All that being said though, I'm still looking forward to the new Tomb Raider. If any game looks like it could handle the subject matter well it's that one.
 

subtlefuge

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Play through Earthbound, see a boss inspired by a child's experience viewing a rape scene, maintain composure, never bring up this stupid, misinformed argument again.

Simple steps to breaking ignorance on this issue.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Stripes said:
we dont really need to be told
The fact that quite a few rapes happen seem to suggest otherwise.

And let's not forget, there are instances where rape is so insidious that even the rapist might not realize what he's doing. There have been instances of a man having unwanted sex with a woman and not even figuring that it was unwanted. Or having sex with someone drunk, on drugs, or asleep, and thinking it's okay.

Rape isn't always (often isn't) a violent back-alley thing like we see in movies. I think it would behoove society to make us all more aware of that, and understand that just because we're not forcing someone to do something at knifepoint, we still may be making someone do something they don't want to do, and that it could severely affect them emotionally.
 

yunabomb

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Stripes said:
Its kinda like saying theres plenty self defence advise but nothing telling people not to kill each other, we dont really need to be told and if you were to tell men specifically not to rape, as if they were children or didnt know right from wrong, then it feels like your treating men as if they would rape without being told not to. Ive seen people make the same complaint and it feels a bit like characterizing all men for the actions of few.
The problem is that there are way too many people who think that what the victim wore or did in a period before the rape is relevant to the rape, and it's not. Anyone who's first reaction to rape is to question all the victims actions needs to be told why this is wrong. This is why this phrase is said, even if it sounds reductionist at first.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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ldgoodpobad said:
I think another important difference is how killing is shown vs rape in games like rapeply (sp?) in rape games there seems to be an intent that ones gets off to rape while that is not quit the same thing with murder. I don't think I am supposed to be sexually excised by killing a bunch of people in a game. I think George R.R. Martin dose a good job drawing that line. His rape scenes are always horrible, and never containing any detail that could be considered erotic.
You hit the nail on the head. Murder in games is seen as a means to an end. You shoot and move on. Where as rapelay is taking way more interest in the raping and the negativity in that.

Way i see it, all rapists deserved kill. Fact we all have mothers, so why would we do anything that we would hate to happen to our mums. Your George Martin quote was great....making a game where you, the player, is taking pleasure in what your doing is wrong. Actually the person that would play such a game is wrong.

My captcha says Kiss me.
 

Draconalis

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For a moment... I thought he was going to defend rape. I'm pleased he did not.

Rape is universally bad... but what I don't get is the "Murder vs Sex" in video games argument.
 

Amaror

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I don't know if i understood you right there but did you say rape is something
"Women just can't physically do", which is just wrong, of course they can force someone to sex as much as a men can do it.
Your next point however, that for the most part only women fear being raped and that it happens a lot more to women is true though.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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lord.jeff said:
Also I want to point out the giving a villain his just deserts for defense of murder falls apart when playing games like Saints Row and God of War.
I never said it always is justified. I said it CAN be, which is the difference-maker between it and rape.
 

xEightBitPlayerx

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Well done Jim, and yes, I'm sure someone will go off the deep end just by seeing the title but the blog is very insightful. Keep up the great work.
 

Rabidkitten

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Seems correct.

I think murder is something that almost every human can be driven to perform. Given the circumstances, if it's you or them. You're probably going to choose to kill. Rape on the other hand is not something the vast majority of people could be driven to perform. There is no, its you or them scenario.

While ethically a game that features digital rape is on the same level as digital murder. I
think culturally its just not going to fly. And you would probably shrugg off a person who plays a Call of Duty, but some one who plays a rape simulator. You should be afraid of. Murder is part of the human condition, rape is not.

Hamlet debates murdering his uncle, not raping him.

I don't know the legality of the issue, but rape should land you a life sentence as with murder imo.
 

FallenMessiah88

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Jan 8, 2010
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I agree. Rape is definetly on a whole other level than murder in terms of evil.

Stripes said:
The one issue with this otherwise fine video is the complaint that whilst theres plenty of advice for women on how not to get raped theres little telling men not to. Its kinda like saying theres plenty self defence advise but nothing telling people not to kill each other, we dont really need to be told and if you were to tell men specifically not to rape, as if they were children or didnt know right from wrong, then it feels like your treating men as if they would rape without being told not to. Ive seen people make the same complaint and it feels a bit like characterizing all men for the actions of few.

Thank god for Jim
My thoughts exactly. Instead of trying to demonize the other gender, we should simply sit down like adults and have a healthy and logical discussion.
 

dragongit

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One game that I know of that isn't a hentai, that deals with a victim of rape, is I have no Mouth and I Must Scream. In there is one of the 5 protagonists, Ellen, who is the last woman on earth. Her story deals with her trauma of being raped in an elevator, and the psychological horror that reflects the incident.
 

DiMono

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Jimothy Sterling said:
DiMono said:
The other thing that you didn't touch on is that in a video game, killing someone is generally very fast. You shoot them in the head, and down they go. You cut off their limbs, down they go.
Blink and you can miss it, but I did point out that murder can be impersonal while rape really can't be. It was VERY quickly made though, because I have less than ten minutes of video time (any more would be egregious) and so can't cover everything in detail.
I'm not sure we're both talking about the same facet of the discussion here, but I'm also not sure I can explain where I think the difference is without it seeming unnecessarily pedantic. I may come back to this later.
 

AxelxGabriel

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5ilver said:
I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Again, Dentistry can be justified. You dont NEED to go to a dentist.

Rape is not. There is no justification for Rape, period.
 

Mylinkay Asdara

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Nov 28, 2010
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Well discussed. There are, already, some instances listed by other commenters when including the idea of rape or rapists isn't inappropriate in a game (thinking here of The Cheshire's comment about a game sequence of hunting down a criminal whose crime happens to be rape), but the rape of characters - or things like the upcoming 'almost' rape of Croft - is something I do think the industry shouldn't dabble in -- because it isn't something to be dabbled in. It's something that should be treated, when it is treated, with extreme gravity and sensitivity due to the excellent reason that you brought up in the video: there are victims of rape who may end up facing their trauma in such games, they are still alive to do so where murder victims do not have that problem. I think this applies equally to kidnapping and torture in the sense that victims of such acts need to be considered as potentially part of the audience and their well being as consumers and human beings must then be considered when addressing that subject. I don't think the industry and the medium is really well-rounded and mature enough to manage that properly yet, which means they shouldn't do it at all until they are in my opinion. Or, if they are going to have to under some "practice will make perfect" argument, then the content should be walled and optional to players who want to explore that development process, but not inflicted on the whole audience or snuck in without warning on unsuspecting potentially adverse players.

I, personally, don't want it in games I play. That's my opinion, my preference. Others may differ, that is their right. I would be very disappointed if it became the 'it' thing to put in games to show off their maturity or dark fantasy or whatever trends, because then the ability to avoid it, as I wish to do, would be diminished.

And because this thread is already moving in a direction I don't fancy getting a migraine over - rape is not comparable to a paper cut - I will leave it at that and be on my way. Well done Jim, thank gods for you.
 

Scrustle

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I really like it when Jim shows his more humble side. It shows that he is more than his persona which he projects for laughs and entertainment value. It shows us that he really is very intelligent and understands the nuances of these kind of discussions.

I think most of this video is spot on and I agree that rape is far more reprehensible that murder. My main reason isn't really about all the stuff to do with power fantasies and stuff like that, but after a rape a person's life can be completely destroyed. They have to live with that utter horror for the rest of their lives, while with murder the pain ends fairly quickly. It's a fate worse than death in my eyes.

But I don't agree that there's no "grey area". While I'm not in any way trying to say that justification for rape is okay in any circumstance, or blaming anyone for getting raped, there is more to it than just a monster forcing himself upon another person. Like when someone is intoxicated. The person made the choice to be in that state, and knew that if they continued to drink (or do whatever) once they had started, that they would become increasingly unable to defend themselves against some kind of attack. That doesn't make the attack okay in any way, but they must have been aware of the consequences of their actions and what that could potentially lead to. There's also the possibility of the accusation of rape being used to selfish ends. It is rare, and does not excuse real rape in any way, but it does happen. Some people consent and then afterwards claim they were raped so they can sue someone or use it for some other selfish malicious goal.