Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

[ReiverCorrupter]

Thank you! I've been driven mad by people claming they don't see harm in rape-jokes when murder-jokes are OK. What's been making me livid is the fact that I haven't been able to express why they are not only wrong, but the implications of making rape-jokes OK are kinda scary. So thank you Jim, and thank God for you!

Well... he was talking about rape in video games, not jokes. I hate to break it to you, but the whole point of murder, rape, dead-baby, racist, etc. jokes is that they aren't okay. What people find funny about them is their very offensiveness itself: they are enjoyable because they are taboo. So... I don't really see what you're getting at. I don't think anyone actually holds that they are socially acceptable. Are you saying that people should be punished if they make these jokes in public? Pretty sure you can contact your HR department at wherever you work and get people in trouble for making any sort of the above mentioned offensive jokes.

I doubt any one type of offensive joke is more damaging to society than any others. If people are telling rape jokes in a fraternity and the members commit rape, this is probably due to the nature of the fraternity, of which the rape jokes are merely one small symptom. The only time a joke can actually reinforce a behavior is when it results from an already predominant social structure that reinforces that behavior. Attacking the jokes is a waste of time, they are merely a symptom of the disease. All you'll end up doing is eroding freedom of speech.

If you're saying that people should be banned from online services for making these types of jokes, then sure, the companies can ban whomever they want for whatever reason they want. Free speech isn't guaranteed on Xbox live. That shit's up to M$. Hell, they can ban you for getting into political discussions if they wanted to. They could ban you for having "Obama/Romney 2012" in your profile. In order to play on these services they have you sign a ridiculous license agreement that has you give up all of your rights. Of course, it works both ways. You can't really demand jack squat from these companies. If they thought that banning certain types of jokes would hurt their sales they probably wouldn't do it. It's up to them.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I'm going to take an unpopular stance here:

I believe that rape and murder are wrong.

*exhale* There. Now, I know some of you out there may disagree with that sentiment, but I feel that it's an opinion of marginal to great value, particularly in this day and age. I do, however, feel that this deserves clarification; I'm referring to actual cases of either occurrence.


As those things pertain to fiction... I don't care. At all. None of these characters actually exist. There is no trauma being inflicted on the parties involved. There is no long term effect of whatever happens, because they cease to exist in that state once power to the particular screen or device they're connected to is shut off. There is no victim.

I've known several people who've been the victim of rape. Dear friends and, actually, family.

It's horrific. I make a point of not dwelling on it due to the inherent sense of helplessness that it brings, yet I know that they don't have the luxury of doing so.

That said; I'll end with another controversial opinion.

Real life and video games are not comparable.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

One thing that isn't really addressed by these arguments is times where people kill innocent people. Take the scene in Modern Warfare 2 where you kill random people in an airport (that scene actually did make me feel sick by the way). They are helpless, they have no way to protect themselves, and none of them did anything to deserve it. I'd say that's a much worse situation than say, having the villain command the PC to rape someone, although I'm sure if that happened in the game it would get much more backlash than it did. Another example is Fable, and other similar games where you can kill anyone you want. There's plenty of unarmed bystanders who you can just take out on a whim.

Of course, rape is never good and killing can be acceptable, but I have to say that killing can be much worse. You have to live with the consequences of having been raped, but people can move past it (I'm not saying that everyone is able to, but there are people who have)and even if they can't, they still get the enjoyment of living the rest of their life. Someone who is killed doesn't have that option.

For that matter, what about torture? Playing a game like Amnesia, or Fallout, you don't see the explicit acts, but you see the results and methods of the torture. And while rape is an awful act, and I'm not trying to devalue its impact, some of the methods that were used in both of those games are much worse, approaching the worst acts that I could possibly fathom. Yet those hardly garnered attention at all.

I will agree with the grey area point however. People have desires to have sex, and usually have it with it being acceptable, while killing is seen as almost always being wrong. I think the difference is that sex is something that is circumstantially unacceptable while killing is something that's circumstantially acceptable. I guess both that, and the fact that people have a desire to have sex makes it more difficult for people to instantly recognize it as wrong. Although I think that another large part of why it isn't addressed is how sex is a much more uncomfortable subject to people than killing. A rating for a movie will be boosted much more from sex than from killing.

EDIT:

*snip

I agree with you on this. If anything I see the jokes as a reinforcement of just how unacceptable the acts are. I mean seriously, you don't see anyone make a fuss about how people who make dead baby jokes think it's acceptable to kill babies. It's a completely unacceptable topic, and the absurd levels of cruelty in it is what makes it funny.

 

[mike1921]

Contrary to popular belief woman can rape man
BUT
all known techniques to do so are lethal to man
So it will be less about rape and more about killing

Besides that
Yeah, don't rape, just, don't, please!

Explain? Tying him down with viagra will kill him or it won't work? Or just fucking him with a strap-on ?

 

[Magikarp]

Great video, but one thing I disagree with is the idea that we should be telling rapists not to rape rather than victims not to be victims. I don't mean it's the victim's fault, I just think that rapists can't be convinced otherwise by being told not to, whereas victims may be able to take measures against being raped.

Except that it works [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/dont-be-that-guy-ad-campaign-cuts-vancouver-sex-assaults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article2310422/]. Because a lot of rapists don't realize they're rapists.

Huh. I stand corrected. I was not aware that so many people didn't know what rape was...

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

3) And frankly, rape in general is a grey area IRL as well. If a woman wants to destroy a man, nothing easier than to seduce him and then blame him of rape. Or just 'change her mind' later or blame it on alcohol or something. No I'm not saying it's happening often, but let's not pretend this doesn't exist. And in this case, a man has no way to defend himself either unless he videotaped her agreement to have the intercourse.

To be fair, I'm sure that more damage would be done to someone by accusing them of murdering someone else. Sure, it's a little more difficult, but just the accusation can do permanent damage to their reputation

 

[Oldmanwillow]

I'd also like to point out, that while the discussion of rape and murder are discussed, the subject of Torture isn't brought up either, and is something that may give validity to the argument.

You see in many videogames the character can brutally eviscerate their enemies. Look at Kratos from God of War, how often he doesn't just simply and quickly kill enimies, he takes the time to slowly, and painfully murder them. Ripping off their heads from their sholders, cutting into their brains or yanking off limbs. Much like Rape, Torture takes pre meditation and conviction to accomplish, where as killing can be a reflect or a drive to survive.

Technically, though, your examples aren't torture in the usual sense. They're just extremely savage killing. All it really does is remove the ambiguity from the act--the character isn't killing because he has to, he's doing it because he likes it. It's just a glorified kill animation that says something about the protagonist's character, but nothing about torture itself.

A realistic and honest approach to torture would be, should I cause pain and suffering to this guy over prolonged periods, and thoroughly shame and dehumanize him by stripping him nude, passing an electric current through his testicles, forcing him to stand for 36 hours at a time, smashing his fingers with a hammer? If he might know where a bomb is hidden, does that justify it? What if I can't break him, but I do the above to his innocent wife or child? Is that justifiable? That would be a realistic approach to torture.

You dont think one could justify rape in the same way? this person knows where a Bomb is that could kill a thousand of innocent people. I know ill rape him or her until they tell me. I am sorry torture is a slow and deliberate act trying to dehumanize a human being and it always has a victim. In the worse cause the victim carries both physical and emotional scars for their entire life. Getting raped is horrible situation. Having all the bones in your legs crushed and parts of your body set on fire is terrible as well and it cannot be justified.

I am sorry but you are wrong the worst thing you can do to a person is to kill them. The prefrontal cortex stops functioning and you cease to exist. To say that it doesnt matter because you cannot care is foolish. The human body and brain are quite resilient given enough time one can recover from most injuries. When you are killed the right to try to rebuild your life is taken away from you.

People saying that killing is a easy thing to do because it can be justified have never been in a situation where they had to justify it. When i was over in Afghanistan i had to do some things that i could never hope to be forgiven for. When you inspect a 12-14 year old kid that had a suicide vest on and was trying to blow themselves up and you. Then you realize that it was your bullet that killed him and all you see is the face of some poor kid that never had a chance in life and was indoctrinated from a very young age and didnt even understand the full consequences of what he was doing.

Murder cannot be justified. You never forget the faces.

 

[Nurb]

Contrary to popular belief woman can rape man
BUT
all known techniques to do so are lethal to man
So it will be less about rape and more about killing

Besides that
Yeah, don't rape, just, don't, please!

Explain? Tying him down with viagra will kill him or it won't work? Or just fucking him with a strap-on ?

Uhhh no, women can rape a man wihtout lethality.

Didn't you read that story about the Russian woman who had a shop someone tried to rob her? Instead she karatekicked him to the head, chained him to a radiator, fed him viagra for 3 days while raping him to teach him a lesson. And being a nice sport she gave him cab-fare when she released him.

And before you start going 'niiiiiice' like a couple of south park figures: He was apparantly so pissed off that he pressed charges (despite the humiliation and probable prison term that came with it).

On the contrary, in reality, people find rape as punishment for men rather acceptable, even a "guilty pleasure" among western nations. Prison rape occurs, but no one cares because they're criminals (no matter how small their crime might have been), even chuckle about "bubba's new girlfriend" whenever someone is convicted of something like theft.

I wouldn't have a big issue about a lot of these arguments if there weren't such big exceptions to how people react to spesific situations like that.

3) And frankly, rape in general is a grey area IRL as well. If a woman wants to destroy a man, nothing easier than to seduce him and then blame him of rape. Or just 'change her mind' later or blame it on alcohol or something. No I'm not saying it's happening often, but let's not pretend this doesn't exist. And in this case, a man has no way to defend himself either unless he videotaped her agreement to have the intercourse.

To be fair, I'm sure that more damage would be done to someone by accusing them of murdering someone else. Sure, it's a little more difficult, but just the accusation can do permanent damage to their reputation

It's a crime to falsely accuse someone of murder. There is no punishment for women falsely accusing men of rape or molestation. The accusation alone is enough to end a person's career and permanently ruin their reputation even when innocent. It's happened to male teachers, which is why there's a shortage of them today, and there's the Duke rape case, and most recently a former student was released from jail when his accuser admitted on tape that she wasn't raped. It's a relatively common tactic in custody and alimony cases during divorce too, but it's thankfully becomming less common.

 

[The_Emperor]

agree with everything

I dont think chapelle meant what he said to be taken like that though.

I think he meant if you dress like a slut be expected that people will assume you are a slut

nobody should be raped. even if they dress provocatively that does not give you the right to rape them

dressing provocatively people will assume you are trying to provoke a sexual response to your aesthetic appearance, albeit definately not a rapey response because even if someone walks round with a sign saying someone have sex with me that doesn't mean you can do it without their consent.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

So killing in video games is OK so long as it's justifiable in the fiction, such as being the hero and defending yourself in a war game?

And "We all know murder is wrong and are secure in the knowledge we won't shoot someone"? I don't like rape, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what rape is and we are all secure in the knowledge we know "no means no" and have no inention of drugging a woman (or a man if you swing that way)

What about being the bad guy or the villain? You really can't rationalize walking down the street in GTA games and just blowing the brains out of some innocent person, or driving down the sidewalk, slaughtering dozens before killing off hundreds of police officers trying to stop your rampage. That technically would be unacceptable by this particular argument and GTA 5 would have to be stopped. There are people that like playing an evil son of a ***** in the KOTOR games and MMO, are they bad people for choosing the bad options to execute and extort innocents?

In the end, people need to stop being outraged over the fiction they personally don't like while then playng out horrible acts in the fiction they do like because that's all it is: Fiction. It's not real, it's all the same virtual death, murder, rape, torture, etc, only our opinions on the fictional and illegal acts in the entertainment are different (which is why so many games have the 'moral choice' system btw)

So yes, it is hypocritical when someone complains about "killable children" mods in Fallout 3 and Skyrim to add realism is hypocritical when you can beat the homeless man dying of thirst outside towns to death with a pipe in Fallout 3 and don't say a word about how horrible that act is.

We're trying to apply real world morals, logic, thinking and laws to things that don't exist, which is insane to begin with and it only ends up giving a mob of people the idea they can start dictating what fictional things people can and can't create, which is already happening. I don't like rape either, but I ignore it if it isn't reality because I can, such as not going near those hentai rape games. All the complaints about those games did was advertize for them.

We need a "National Day of No Outrage". I'm starting to shut off anything that has anyone being offended about anything the last year or so.

I think the difference is that what people enjoy about games like GTA is the gameplay mechanics, the challenge, the ridiculous way they ragdoll all over the place, and unlike a rape game, they aren't getting a thrill out of the actual acts. Obviously I can't speak for everyone.

 

[Varya]

Thank you! I've been driven mad by people claming they don't see harm in rape-jokes when murder-jokes are OK. What's been making me livid is the fact that I haven't been able to express why they are not only wrong, but the implications of making rape-jokes OK are kinda scary. So thank you Jim, and thank God for you!

Well... he was talking about rape in video games, not jokes. I hate to break it to you, but the whole point of murder, rape, dead-baby, racist, etc. jokes is that they aren't okay. What people find funny about them is their very offensiveness itself: they are enjoyable because they are taboo. So... I don't really see what you're getting at. I don't think anyone actually holds that they are socially acceptable. Are you saying that people should be punished if they make these jokes in public? Pretty sure you can contact your HR department at wherever you work and get people in trouble for making any sort of the above mentioned offensive jokes.

I doubt any one type of offensive joke is more damaging to society than any others. If people are telling rape jokes in a fraternity and the members commit rape, this is probably due to the nature of the fraternity, of which the rape jokes are merely one small symptom. The only time a joke can actually reinforce a behavior is when it results from an already predominant social structure that reinforces that behavior. Attacking the jokes is a waste of time, they are merely a symptom of the disease. All you'll end up doing is eroding freedom of speech.

If you're saying that people should be banned from online services for making these types of jokes, then sure, the companies can ban whomever they want for whatever reason they want. Free speech isn't guaranteed on Xbox live. That shit's up to M$. Hell, they can ban you for getting into political discussions if they wanted to. They could ban you for having "Obama/Romney 2012" in your profile. In order to play on these services they have you sign a ridiculous license agreement that has you give up all of your rights. Of course, it works both ways. You can't really demand jack squat from these companies. If they thought that banning certain types of jokes would hurt their sales they probably wouldn't do it. It's up to them.

Listen, I'm not interesting in debating this really, but I never said annythiung about what's allowed, I believe in free speach, I'm talking about ME and I will never think rape jokes are OK (and even this is sayinga bit too much, I've laughed and been okay with jokes concernig rape, but there are very, very few and there is a thin line there that I cannot express excatly) but killing jokes are. Yes, there are out of taste jokes there too, but generally speaking I hvae no problem with murder/torture/grevious bodillyharm-jokes. Think about it, have you ever laughed at a Darwin Award? can you even imagine a similar rape-situation? No, because even real-life deaths can be funny, but rape can't.
As for banning, I really don't wan't to get in to that debate. I would never voulontarily become a moderator, but in geeneral,m if you make rape-jokes or even worse, threats, serious or not on the internet, I will personally concider you an asshole, but with deat/killing jargon I tend to give more leeway, but your still probably an asshole.

 

[BeeGeenie]

I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

*Facepalm* Going to the dentist may be unpleasant, but it's also VOLUNTARY. Rape is about depriving another human being of their free will and humanity. There's nothing debasing about getting your teeth cleaned.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

At the risk of sounding like an ignorant moron I pose my thoughts on the subject:

Rape in my eyes is equally heinous as murder and torture.

What I've never gotten is the clothes argument. Of course you shouldn't tell a victim something to the effect of: "You silly, wearing tight jeans is what got you raped." But wearing certain kinds of clothes can titillate rapists. A friend of mine got catcalled in public because she was wearing shorts and the whole disgusting debacle may have been avoided if she was wearing baggy pants. This is not to say that wearing a Burka completely prevents rape, but dressing conservatively might help you avoid unwanted attention, still I am not one to dictate how women dress. (This is ignoring rape cases were the perpetrator and the victim know each others or were the victims were children)

Of course you can flame me away, have fun!

Meh. That isn't unreasonable. The problem is that people fail to distinguish between murder and killing. Games like Call of Duty involve killing in war, which is completely different from murdering some innocent person. I'd liken rape games to school shooter games. Both are pretty equally repugnant in their own way.

As far as the clothing thing goes, I think people automatically identify a statement like, "what they hell was she expecting, walking around dressed like that in that neighborhood alone at night?" with "she was dressed like a whore, so she clearly deserved it." The first is not equivalent to the second. You can point out that a victim of a crime was doing something stupid so that hopefully people won't make the same mistake, which is completely different from blaming the victim for what the criminal did to them. The criminal was the one who committed the heinous act, and all of the onus falls upon them.

But in the case of rape, I would say it has very little to do with clothing, and more to do with a lack of awareness of one's surroundings, and a dangerous sense of comfort in situations where one should be wary. I'm willing to bet just as much rape happens when some woman dressed in sweatpants decides to take out her trash in the middle of the night as happens to drunken women wandering home from a club. Spreading awareness helps to prevent this. This is especially true when you consider the campaign to warn people about keeping an eye on their drinks to avoid date-rape drugs. Many of these women probably thought they were being safe by traveling by taxi, some of them might have even had mace.

The victim's actions should be criticized because stupidity/ignorance shouldn't be ignored or encouraged. It's essentially the same thing as telling someone they were stupid for leaving their Mercedes unlocked in a bad neighborhood overnight: the criminal is the one who committed the wrongdoing; the person who left it unlocked is only guilty of being stupid. Same goes for not covering up the pad when you enter your pin #, or not chopping up credit cards.

People don't like these arguments because they find them offensive, and I'm sympathetic. The victim has usually been through enough, and it doesn't help to criticize them: they've almost assuredly learned their lesson. But when the police chief warns women not to repeat that person's mistake, he is hardly legitimizing rape. I guess someone might take that to be 'mansplaining', but it's really just common sense, and sometimes people need to be given a good fright to make them wake up. Sure, no one in their right mind would do such a thing, but the victims are often drunk. Putting a bit of fear into them might influence them take more precautions before they go out, like bringing a tazer, or using a buddy-system.

Sure, it's condescending to tell women what to do, but sometimes people need to be condescended to and scared. And no, it's not a gender thing. The same applies to men in various other circumstances. A man should be equally criticized for getting mugged after wandering around drunk in a bad neighborhood.