Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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Just putting in my two cents here. I agree with Jim that there are plenty of good reasons Rape is seen as worse then murder. or at least more hated then that. I dont think one can argue which is moraly worse then the other.
Though killing has more variblaes, it can be just as bad as rape.
Then again one cant quantify how bad a crime is...Still, neither should be done.
Now if I think video games are allowed to portray that? I do. Why the fuck not, every other artform is allowed to adress the subject.
Though killing has more variblaes, it can be just as bad as rape.
Then again one cant quantify how bad a crime is...Still, neither should be done.
Now if I think video games are allowed to portray that? I do. Why the fuck not, every other artform is allowed to adress the subject.
I think rape is just as much fair game as torture. How many times have we seen torture in video games? It has the same long lasting effects as rape, and can be just as traumatizing if not more.
But I've yet to see anyone make a big deal about torture in video games? Heck the Diablo series has tons of depictions of torture.
But I've yet to see anyone make a big deal about torture in video games? Heck the Diablo series has tons of depictions of torture.
I can think of a lot of ways you can be a victim of murder and have to live with it. The murdered isn't the only one who could be witness. And in that case, arguing murder's relative harmless to rape becomes less... solid. I mean, I know friends who have watched people be killed in front of them. Are they not a victim of murder? Shellshocked soldiers, are they?
That's my only real issue with the argument though. Everything else is pretty solid. But really, that this topic has even been coming up recently shows just how petty and incessant the gaming industry and community really is. Film and books have moved past this ages ago. But in gaming, both its audience and creators, it's an area that needs debate...? What. What.
It's immature, it's childish. This and the whole gender wars and politics in gaming. It all reeks of a high schooler's approach to the subjects. It's honestly baffling.
That's my only real issue with the argument though. Everything else is pretty solid. But really, that this topic has even been coming up recently shows just how petty and incessant the gaming industry and community really is. Film and books have moved past this ages ago. But in gaming, both its audience and creators, it's an area that needs debate...? What. What.
It's immature, it's childish. This and the whole gender wars and politics in gaming. It all reeks of a high schooler's approach to the subjects. It's honestly baffling.
When they release a game about torture, in which you commit the torture, come back to me.Jigero said:
Jim, let me go over a few things for you:
1.) Statistics for rape by gender are incredibly unreliable. For starters, the legal codes in most countries define rape as a crime only a man is capable of committing. In the UK, for instance, female rapists cannot be charged as such because the act of rape requires having a penis. The most commonly quoted rape statistics for the US come from the NCVS, a survey which defined rape purely as a penetrative act. This meant that the only female rapists counted were the ones that used strap-ons and that most victims of female rapists, female as well as male, were completely erased. The successor to that survey, the NISVS, counted rape by envelopment but listed it under "other sexual violence" as "forced to penetrate". This meant that the majority of male rape victims were not counted in the "rape" statistics and female victims of female rapists were still completely erased. Rectifying this error in categorization gives numbers far closer to parity for both perpetration and victimization. However, these numbers are still not terribly reliable because the NISVS has come under heavy criticism for using definitions designed to inflate their statistics far beyond the actual instance of rape in the US. This leaves out rape in prisons, where some estimates place the number of male victims in excess of those in the civilian female population and recent studies have shown female guards to commit a disproportionate number of rapes (often framed as "relationships" or the woman being "seduced" when reported in the media). In the Congo, rape of male captives is a widespread cultural practice ignored by both international media and aid organizations.
2.) It is a blatant falsehood that society does not tell men not to rape. Upon entering university, I was required to attend three separate programs on how not to commit rape (current legal definitions mean that it is often possible to do so entirely by accident). Female students were exempt from all three sessions and no mention that men could be raped or should take precautions against being rape was ever made. Indeed, I did not hear about men being raped outside of prison until it happened to someone I knew. As you yourself mentioned, rape is seen as a horrific crime in our society. Where are these messages telling men that rape is okay?
3.) It is incredibly dishonest to frame rape as purely or primarily an act of physical force used to overpower a victim. The majority of rapes in our society involve the use of drugs or alcohol to render the victim incapable of resisting, or the use of social or economic pressures to force their submission. Men are just as susceptible to these methods as women, and it is incredibly dismissive and dishonest to say they have nothing to worry about. That the average man does not fear being raped is not a testament to his protection from that possibility, but to the fact that no one has ever educated him of the possibility or warned him to be careful.
You are, however, generally correct in your reasoning as to why rape is both less common and less okay than murder in games, although I think you significantly underestimate the effect depictions of graphic violence can have on victims of actual violence (they don't all die, and it can be every bit as traumatic).
1.) Statistics for rape by gender are incredibly unreliable. For starters, the legal codes in most countries define rape as a crime only a man is capable of committing. In the UK, for instance, female rapists cannot be charged as such because the act of rape requires having a penis. The most commonly quoted rape statistics for the US come from the NCVS, a survey which defined rape purely as a penetrative act. This meant that the only female rapists counted were the ones that used strap-ons and that most victims of female rapists, female as well as male, were completely erased. The successor to that survey, the NISVS, counted rape by envelopment but listed it under "other sexual violence" as "forced to penetrate". This meant that the majority of male rape victims were not counted in the "rape" statistics and female victims of female rapists were still completely erased. Rectifying this error in categorization gives numbers far closer to parity for both perpetration and victimization. However, these numbers are still not terribly reliable because the NISVS has come under heavy criticism for using definitions designed to inflate their statistics far beyond the actual instance of rape in the US. This leaves out rape in prisons, where some estimates place the number of male victims in excess of those in the civilian female population and recent studies have shown female guards to commit a disproportionate number of rapes (often framed as "relationships" or the woman being "seduced" when reported in the media). In the Congo, rape of male captives is a widespread cultural practice ignored by both international media and aid organizations.
2.) It is a blatant falsehood that society does not tell men not to rape. Upon entering university, I was required to attend three separate programs on how not to commit rape (current legal definitions mean that it is often possible to do so entirely by accident). Female students were exempt from all three sessions and no mention that men could be raped or should take precautions against being rape was ever made. Indeed, I did not hear about men being raped outside of prison until it happened to someone I knew. As you yourself mentioned, rape is seen as a horrific crime in our society. Where are these messages telling men that rape is okay?
3.) It is incredibly dishonest to frame rape as purely or primarily an act of physical force used to overpower a victim. The majority of rapes in our society involve the use of drugs or alcohol to render the victim incapable of resisting, or the use of social or economic pressures to force their submission. Men are just as susceptible to these methods as women, and it is incredibly dismissive and dishonest to say they have nothing to worry about. That the average man does not fear being raped is not a testament to his protection from that possibility, but to the fact that no one has ever educated him of the possibility or warned him to be careful.
You are, however, generally correct in your reasoning as to why rape is both less common and less okay than murder in games, although I think you significantly underestimate the effect depictions of graphic violence can have on victims of actual violence (they don't all die, and it can be every bit as traumatic).
good points. just a little surprised he dint say anything about tomb raider. there was a huge outcry regarding lara getting sort of raped. or better said, intended getting raped. CD was forced to apologize due misunderstanding. but still, they got in trouble because of this scene in the trailer.
rape is bad, we all agree with that. but then i ask my self why no one makes a problem if you see a scene like this in movies or read about it in books. so why are games seen as the bad guy here? unless you take full control to rape someone, its more then understandable that this is a problem but just seeing it in a game, is not as bad as in movies.
rape is bad, we all agree with that. but then i ask my self why no one makes a problem if you see a scene like this in movies or read about it in books. so why are games seen as the bad guy here? unless you take full control to rape someone, its more then understandable that this is a problem but just seeing it in a game, is not as bad as in movies.
This comment is ridiculous and actually quite frightening. Rape is more evil than murder? When did human life become so cheap?Starik20X6 said:
And anyone who plays the evil path of a game where they abuse NPC's verbally and or physically in order to achieve a role of dominance, are essentially playing a game as a rapist, even if they don't do anything sexual. Victims of domestic abuse, or even bullying are often haunted in the same way as rape victims and society often disregards these people in a similar way as well.
Is it really right to go with the "It could be worse, they could be raping real people" hand-wave here? To me that's even worse. Not that they're raping fictional characters, but that we have to cater to them as our very own rapist demographic... or else. That scares me. A lot.daltonlaffs said: