Jimquisition: Salt Of The Earth - A Steam Fail Story

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Khanjali

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Mar 13, 2014
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This isn't the first time something like this happened on Steam.
Granted, that involved stolen Skyrim mods being hosted by someone claiming to be their creator on the Steam Workshop, but the culprit there did the exact same thing Muxwell is/was doing (no idea if this is still going on) with his game. Valve responded by changing developer privileges and permanent banning the thief's Steam account, but I don't think that kind of response has extended to Early Access abusers yet.
With this, it should happen sometime soon.

In no way is this Valve's fault. If something can be abused/exploited in some form or fashion, it will happen for as long as the problem isn't fixed.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Jimothy Sterling said:
The humiliating story of Earth: Year 2066 is a good example of just how badly Steam can be abused.
Jim, why do you resort to childish personal attacks like "man-child" and "little boy" in your video? This guy's actions are bad enough on their own that there's penny of room to criticise his actions, without resorting to such attacks on masculinity. It's just completely unnecessary when there's so much other material to work with.

Would you have said similar things if this person was female? Would you have called her an "immature *****" or "little girl"?
 

Makabriel

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GamemasterAnthony said:
Hmmm...I wonder what would happen if someone dared to, I don't know...threaten Muxwell with litigation for violating people's rights to their opinions? Seriously...I say hit these idiots with the potential for the worst case scenario and they may stop this bullcrap.

What do you think, Jim?
You have no rights on a private forum. They can delete anything they want to. Doesn't mean there won't be retaliation by the users, and make you look like a complete D!@k, but thems the breaks.
 

Varrdy

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Zontar said:
To me, the only games which should be sold on Early Access, are those which can be sold for the labelled price, and without modification be considered a proper purchase. Minecraft, Kerbal and a few others are good examples of that. Those who fail at it miserably are: 2066, Planetary Annihilators, Wasteland 2, and some others.

If you want 20$ or 30$ from me now, you need to give me something WORTH 20$ or 30$ now, not something worth nothing with the promise of something worth the money I pay in the future.

Now, to annex the Sudetenland.
RE: Kerbal

I'm glad you said that because, having played the demo, I'm gonna be getting the full game as soon as I get paid this week. I've heard good things about it!
 

seditary

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Hopefully people are now getting it. Steam is moving away from being a walled garden store to being a facilitator for other people's stores.

They give developers their own forums, they can put up whatever games they like, they can set their own sales etc etc.

Steam doesn't want companies doing the same as EA.

'Get the same here as you would making your own store and reach more people, just give us some of the cash!'

Some people of course might not like that and that's fine, but I do like that. Steam just needs some consumer protection policies like a robust returns system and removal of predatory vendors like Muxwell.
 

gamegod25

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Here is hoping Steam answers this wake up call that has been blaring for a while now. The way I see it they either need to:

A) Create a QA/Standards Department to evaluate any game that wishes to be sold on Steam, especially early access games. If they do not meet a reasonable level of quality right now then they will not be allowed to be sold until a better version is submitted. And only one version may be submitted per year to allow time to work on it and keep them from spamming the same shit right away. Also there will be another team devoted to monitoring the forums rather than giving all the power to the dev.

B) Early Access games must be FREE to download and play....all of them. If a player wishes to support it then Steam will provide a way to send the dev money either directly or give a link to a website where the dev will provide their own donation system. If the dev wants to sell the game then it must be in a complete state and drop the early access label and be judged as a final product.

C) Get rid of early access entirely and shut the whole system down. Its a good idea but one too easily exploited with no check and balances to provide the consumer any level of confidence or way to fight back.
 

Rozalia1

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I'm really not seeing the issue honestly. As this Muxwell fellow states its early access so regardless of the quality he isn't "scamming" you (though if the concept of early access is in itself a scam is another matter).
His game can be as broken as he wills it, and if you get burned than...just don't be a sucker.

As for deleting "negative feedback" (in quotes as I'm sure he did in fact receive a lot of abuse that would be classed as abuse, not criticism"), well Steam agrees with him on allowing him to have that power. Take it up with them if you don't like it.

People need to understand that some developers simply don't give a toss what you think is correct, just, or good. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes you naive for expecting/demanding they all to be nice guys.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Its so strange. I'm on the Steam forums fairly regularly. I try to keep up with greenlight games and the general feel of subsections, but I've never heard of this guy. And this is not the first time Jim has referenced an apparently huge Steam issue that I completely missed. Not knocking Jim, knocking myself. Is there just a 'don't invite that one dude' forum section where like, EVERYTHING, goes on?
I'd have loved to have complained about a bad game but this flew completely over my radar!
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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DrOswald said:
Steam cannot possibly afford moderating every single forum and without moderation forums quickly turn into useless pits of crap.
I was under the impression that Steam is doing quite well, and that Valve is not hurting for money. What are you basing the statement that they "cannot possibly afford" it on? Moderating isn't very expensive, and Valve has lots of money.

It's not that hard if you set up the system properly. In particular, I would make these developers subject to moderation themselves. If they are seen abusing the moderation of their own boards like this guy, then they should be kicked of Steam. I don't know how the system currently works, but it seems that the developers have immunity for their actions in moderating their boards.

Cracking down on the most egregious abusers (on both sides of the moderation picture) makes a big difference, cutting down vastly on the ongoing work that needs to be done.
 

gamegod25

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Rozalia1 said:
I'm really not seeing the issue honestly. As this Muxwell fellow states its early access so regardless of the quality he isn't "scamming" you (though if the concept of early access is in itself a scam is another matter).
His game can be as broken as he wills it, and if you get burned than...just don't be a sucker.

As for deleting "negative feedback" (in quotes as I'm sure he did in fact receive a lot of abuse that would be classed as abuse, not criticism"), well Steam agrees with him on allowing him to have that power. Take it up with them if you don't like it.

People need to understand that some developers simply don't give a toss what you think is correct, just, or good. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes you naive for expecting/demanding they all to be nice guys.
Uh no, that absolutely makes them wrong. That's like saying some people just don't care if stealing or murder is wrong and will do it anyway and it's your fault for getting robbed or murdered.
 

DrOswald

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omnifarious said:
Deadagent said:
So TL;DR of this episode: "Hey, look theres a really shitty early accsess game made by a scamming fucktard. Let's make steam more closed platform, because I was right".
In all fairness, Jim didn't say to make Steam a closed platform. Steam did just fine before Early Access and Green Light were even a thing. In fact, there really isn't much mention of Steam in the video this go around, even though he did elude towards his previous statements in regards to the issue of QC on Steam.

I do agree with you that tossing blame of a broken system is the metaphorical equivalent protesting a grocery store because they received a shipment of rotten meat. With that being said, however, it's difficult to not blame said grocery store if it continued to sell rotten meat, despite the protesters at its doors. And as of me writing this, Steam hasn't pulled Earth: Year 2088 from its storefront, despite everything that's been revealed about the game.
Before Steam Greenlight was a thing one of the biggest complaints leveled against steam was how closed the platform was and how that made it very difficult for aspiring indie developers to break into the market. 2 years ago the discussion was all about how the Steam quality control was locking out perfectly good ideas from the market because some random guy decided the idea was bad. Steam Greenlight and Early Access were created expressly to address these concerns. Let the gaming community decide what will make it onto our storefront.

So no, Steam did not do just fine before Early Access and Greenlight.

And as for why Earth 2066 is still on Steam despite the problems, it was released 4 days ago. 4 days. 2 of those days were weekend days. They probably did not hear about the controversy until today, and they opened for business only 5 hours before your post. Give them some time to actually sort out and assess the problem, to contact the developer to ask what the hell and to get a person to actually play the game themselves and make a determination. These things take time and should take time to avoid mistakes. I would be very disappointed in Steam if they were in the business of making knee jerk removal of games from their store at the first sign of customer complaint.
 

Vivi22

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I get a bit tired of hearing about Steam needing more quality control. Not because I think it would be a bad thing, but because the kind of control people want them to exercise is not only bad for PC gaming, but probably impossible. Having at least some minimum level of quality control on consoles isn't so hard. The hardware is set, it's impossible to release a game on that hardware without the manufacturers okay, and you can thereby make sure that games meet a certain level of quality by insuring they're using your dev kits, meeting certain programming standards, etc. Of course the thing people tend to forget is this is all really just bullshit and these licensing requirements and "quality control," have never stopped shitty games that barely run from being released and frequently only serves to support the failing publishing paradigm in effect right now and bleed small companies dry if they try to navigate them on their own. You can look at Xbox Live Arcade as a fairly obvious case of this model utterly failing to bring in smaller companies. It launched with everyone heralding it as a new way for people to get their games on consoles, and it fizzled and died because the requirements were frequently unclear, certification was incredibly expensive, and they couldn't compete with other distribution platforms that were easier to get one and significantly cheaper.

And all of this without ever even having to point out that there is no hardware standard on the PC, and now Valve is dealing with three different operating systems that games can release on. And christ knows there's enough Linux variants alone to make it impossible for them to quality check every single game. Sorry people, but it will never happen. But for some reason, a small handful of examples of shitty games slipping through the cracks as the system exists right now is enough to have people running for the hills saying the sky is falling. It's not. And it won't.

Because here's where the system needs to go, and where it probably will: user control of content quality. Valve can't police everything. They'll never be able to check out every game that's unreleased, or properly quality test everything out there when it's released, but the community reacts a hell of a lot faster to these things. Give users the power to bring claims against companies. Limit it to a certain number of trusted users and punish those who falsely report if you must. Take the time to investigate pre-release claims, but suspend purchases of released titles until seemingly legitimate claims can be addressed, and if someone does release a game that's a scam, early access or not, cut them off. They can no longer release a title on Steam, and no company which they work with in some sort of management role can do so either. Come down hard on the people who scam the system, but let the users police and gather evidence for this stuff. They will do it faster and better than Valve ever could. Will some get burned by making bad purchases? Probably. But they'll have a recourse. And if you're buying a game sight unseen that you've never heard of before and no one has tried yet you need to be prepared to get burned no matter who made it. That's not being an apologist for a lack of quality control, that's just good old fashioned common sense because no matter how much control is in place some people are going to buy things they don't like. But if they can take action against the people that actually scam others, that counts for a lot. And it goes without saying that anyone who's game is pulled for being a scam should have refunds given to their customers and not be given a dime from the sales.

People who keep going on about a need for quality control on Steam are only half way there. Steam shouldn't be more closed off, it should be as open as possible, but that openness needs to cut both ways. If anyone can get on, then customers need ways to get the bad ones removed quickly and decisively to protect themselves and others. The open system can't just go one way, but just because there are problems now does not mean that we should go the other way in trying to solve them. That's the wrong view to take. We need to be open to trying new pathways to make this stuff happen and recognize that there will be some growing pains along the way. Too many people are too quick to jump straight to "this isn't working so let's go back to doing what consoles do even though that model has been failing them and they're moving away from it now too." Sometimes when given the choice between going forward or turning back, you just have to say fuck it and go left instead.
 

DrOswald

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Aardvaarkman said:
DrOswald said:
Steam cannot possibly afford moderating every single forum and without moderation forums quickly turn into useless pits of crap.
I was under the impression that Steam is doing quite well, and that Valve is not hurting for money. What are you basing the statement that they "cannot possibly afford" it on? Moderating isn't very expensive, and Valve has lots of money.

It's not that hard if you set up the system properly. In particular, I would make these developers subject to moderation themselves. If they are seen abusing the moderation of their own boards like this guy, then they should be kicked of Steam. I don't know how the system currently works, but it seems that the developers have immunity for their actions in moderating their boards.

Cracking down on the most egregious abusers (on both sides of the moderation picture) makes a big difference, cutting down vastly on the ongoing work that needs to be done.
There are more than 3000 games on steam. That is 3000 forums to moderate. How many man hours would be dedicated to this task every single day? Even looking to see if new posts had been made, saying nothing of the content of those posts, would employ several people full time. They would need many employees to do this. And managers for those employees, and a new building for those employees, etc. It would be a massive expense for a very small purpose. Every year enough money to make Half Life 3 would be pissed away on managing forums. All so developers can't delete negative comments about their game, which, as we all know, is completely ineffective anyway and results in a Streisand effect that spreads the news more effectively than negative comments ever could.

When I said "Steam couldn't possibly afford it" I really meant that no company would every be so stupid to piss away such massive sums of money for something so stupid and trivial. It would never be a cost effective use of money.

So I suppose that Steam could afford it, but it would be the dumbest possible thing they could do with their money.
 

Rozalia1

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gamegod25 said:
Rozalia1 said:
I'm really not seeing the issue honestly. As this Muxwell fellow states its early access so regardless of the quality he isn't "scamming" you (though if the concept of early access is in itself a scam is another matter).
His game can be as broken as he wills it, and if you get burned than...just don't be a sucker.

As for deleting "negative feedback" (in quotes as I'm sure he did in fact receive a lot of abuse that would be classed as abuse, not criticism"), well Steam agrees with him on allowing him to have that power. Take it up with them if you don't like it.

People need to understand that some developers simply don't give a toss what you think is correct, just, or good. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes you naive for expecting/demanding they all to be nice guys.
Uh no, that absolutely makes them wrong. That's like saying some people just don't care if stealing or murder is wrong and will do it anyway and it's your fault for getting robbed or murdered.
Did you just compare early access to murder? No its not like murder, or getting mugged in the street, or any such serious thing.

They have no duty to actually put good games on there, so if you buy into it and feel burned...tough, you should have known what to expect. Is the fact its early access hidden from you? No, so its solely your mistake/fault.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
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DrOswald said:
So no, Steam did not do just fine before Early Access and Greenlight.
Were they not making profits before Early Access and Greenlight? Have their profits risen noticeably since those initiatives?

Some people wanting more access for Indies to Steam is not the same as Steam doing poorly. I could complain that Steam doesn't give me free magical bunnies that crap gold nuggets, but my complaint wouldn't mean that Steam is doing a bad job, as they never promised to deliver magical bunnies.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
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DrOswald said:
There are more than 3000 games on steam. That is 3000 forums to moderate. How many man hours would be dedicated to this task every single day? Even looking to see if new posts had been made, saying nothing of the content of those posts, would employ several people full time.
Why would they need to do that? They wouldn't need to read every post, just investigate posts or users that have been flagged for abuse. Which is only going to be a small percentage in a well-run system.

DrOswald said:
Every year enough money to make Half Life 3 would be pissed away on managing forums.
That seems like an absurd claim. Half Life 3 will cost millions of dollars to develop. Even if moderators had to read every post, as you claim, that would only take a few people - and they wouldn't be getting programmer-level salaries.

DrOswald said:
When I said "Steam couldn't possibly afford it" I really meant that no company would every be so stupid to piss away such massive sums of money for something so stupid and trivial. It would never be a cost effective use of money.
I'd like to see your math on how it would cost "massive amounts of money" - and it wouldn't be "pissed away" - it would be dramatically improving their service, and probably result in a net profit if it attracts more people to Steam because of the well-moderated forums and better chance of seeing proper feedback and evaluation of games.

Getting rid of this crap would certainly raise trust levels, and that trust gets people to open their wallets more readily.

DrOswald said:
So I suppose that Steam could afford it, but it would be the dumbest possible thing they could do with their money.
Why? It's a core part of their business, I don't see how it's so dumb to improve it.
 

Ima Lemming

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So this one game recently passed Greenlight, Pier Solar HD? It's a remake of a Genesis game that was released in 2010, and one of the most atrocious experiences [http://www.codiekitty.com/File/PierSolar/index.htm] I've had in recent memory.

Maybe the HD version irons out some of the issues with the original like there only being two enemy formations a dungeon, and changes the ending to something that doesn't render the player's actions completely meaningless, but there's some pretty shady shit going on with this game. As well as a line taken from The Escapist's own Yahtzee (in a JRPG! I think everyone here can see what's especially wrong with that), plot points are lifted from Final Fantasy IV, some characters are modified sprites from SNES games like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy IV and V, and the final boss is heavily inspired by Easytype Zeromus. Maybe that doesn't raise too many alarms, but the developers once called the SNES an "8-bitter in disguise [http://www.codiekitty.com/MOREC/piersolar.htm]."

Oh yeah, and the group is making a couple more games, and a character from one is clearly a modified Witcher emblem [http://www.codiekitty.com/MOREC/aprilfools/aprilfools2014.htm].

These guys might be too small time for Jim to spend a video on, but for fuck's sake Steam, sort yourselves fucking out (see, I can steal from the Escapist too!).
 

gamegod25

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Rozalia1 said:
gamegod25 said:
Rozalia1 said:
I'm really not seeing the issue honestly. As this Muxwell fellow states its early access so regardless of the quality he isn't "scamming" you (though if the concept of early access is in itself a scam is another matter).
His game can be as broken as he wills it, and if you get burned than...just don't be a sucker.

As for deleting "negative feedback" (in quotes as I'm sure he did in fact receive a lot of abuse that would be classed as abuse, not criticism"), well Steam agrees with him on allowing him to have that power. Take it up with them if you don't like it.

People need to understand that some developers simply don't give a toss what you think is correct, just, or good. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes you naive for expecting/demanding they all to be nice guys.
Uh no, that absolutely makes them wrong. That's like saying some people just don't care if stealing or murder is wrong and will do it anyway and it's your fault for getting robbed or murdered.
Did you just compare early access to murder? No its not like murder, or getting mugged in the street, or any such serious thing.

They have no duty to actually put good games on there, so if you buy into it and feel burned...tough, you should have known what to expect. Is the fact its early access hidden from you? No, so its solely your mistake/fault.
You are the same kind of person who says that companies exist to make money as if that absolves them of any responsibility or criticism. Yes there will always be people who abuse the system, take advantage of people, and silence any naysayers...but that doesn't make it right. People like Muxwell give the early access system a bad name and hide behind the "well it's early access" excuse all the while scamming as many people as they can. It's because of them that gamers have to be so diligent, so cautious, so paranoid when it comes to early access when they shouldn't have to be. Jim has already talked about this in great length better than I ever could.

Muxwell is still wrong for putting out crap but Valve is also in the wrong for ALLOWING such horrible excuses for games to pile up on their service like so much feces. Early access or not, there needs to be some quality control.