Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

[The Ubermensch]

Snip

Jim, you say that enough in your vids. Anyone that's worthy of your gaze has already accepted and adopted your ideals of constant self improvement.

Remember last week when you were talking about focusing your anger? This is one of those times.

Spoiler: Have a Cirno and remember who's the strongest

 

[The Ubermensch]

A man is frustrated that a woman he has an affection for doesn't return said affection? MUST BE BECAUSE SHE ISN'T FUCKING HIM!

Keep towing that feminist line, Jim. Your Misandry is standing right out in the open.

Thank god for AdBlock.

It's the Escapist man, have you not learnt to tune that out yet?

While I agree with what you've said, saying it in an inflammatory manner as you have will only galvanise the issue further.

Spoiler: This is along the lines of what you should have said, and this is now my copy pasta

I've had an interesting relationship with Feminism, which is what this is, second wave feminism. I wish the third wave feminist would stop calling what they're doing feminism, and call it egalitarianism or something.

Anyway, back to me, I made a graph showing my state of mind growing up in an environment saturated by feminist propaganda between the age of about 13 to 23. Some of the peaks are meant to be a bit further back, But I made this in like 5 minutes.

The green line shows the feminist propaganda I've been exposed to. The Red line shows how much I care, you'll notice it is now in the negative because I've been saturated with said propaganda that much (And the pink line) that I fucking hate the movement and everything related to it, to the point where it might actually be having the opposite of the intended effect. The pink line is a little more complicated, it really represents my self loathing. For the longest time I accepted that there was something wrong with me, the peak should really be behind the red lines peak. The blue line represents my identity as a heterosexual male, you can see it has recovered, but not completely; Any hole is a goal. The Blood red line shows how ready I am to initiate gene modification practices to give me both working sexual organs and show everyone how it's done.

I think what's getting lost in translation with these feminist arguments, particularly within the gaming community, is that the majority of males that these people are preaching to aren't in the demographic that caused the strife. Your average male gamer who reads Cracked or the Escapist is about 22 years old and white, and has been blamed for every single civil rights violation, racist, misogynistic, and Environment damaging act that their parents did, while they look up at the glass ceiling that their parents occupy in the super saturated job market, all the while been told that they are useless if they don't have a job and/or live with their parents and constantly reminded to check their privilege levels THE MOMENT the 18-28 y/o white male tries to make the kind of argument I just made.

"We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no great war... No great depression. Our great war's a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives. - We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman Is really the answer we need."

 

[themilo504]

I think that no movie TV show or game should have sex scenes unless its porn, sex scenes are completely pointless in a story since there?s nothing a cut to black can?t achieve, the only point of sex scenes is to titillate the watchers/readers/gamers and maybe it?s because I?m(possibly) a asexual but I think that?s a terrible reason that has no place in a good story.

In the past I tried out a romance subplot of mass effect and dragon age because I was curious how they worked, nowadays I always ignore them and it does bug me how sometimes even if I show zero interest a potential love interest still wants to start a relation.

I do however always pair off my avatar in fire emblem awakening for game play reasons, and when I play a human noble in dragon age origins I always marry the queen so that I can become king.

I don't know if this has already been said but I don't have time to read another six pages of comments.

A cut to black in my opinion works most of the time. For games with romance plots like Mass Effect, you don't need to see Liara's bare behind. They had sex, and it was good - we can get this from just seeing something simple, like them cuddling after the act.

However I feel that sex scenes have their place when what occurs during the act itself has an effect on the relationship between the characters. For example, if the sex was awkward they may have trouble talking to each other after. In this case the audience needs to have seen the scene to realize that it was actually awkward (in my opinion).

To be fair though no video game I can think of does this (Katawa Shoujo does but I hesitate to call it a game). To paraphrase Jim, sex is seen as a reward or the culmination of a romance plot. We definitely don't need to see the sex if we're not going to get any further relationship development from the characters.

I still think that there are other ways to show it if sex was very awkward or really good, a simple shot of the characters expressions after the um event can tell enough.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Uh, dude? Jim? Women talk about the 'friendzone' too. In fact, a quick search will reveal to you that some of them are not at all averse to writing blog posts and articles and webcomics asking everyone to remember that women get 'friendzoned' too. Whatever you read on Tumblr, a lot of the people who moan about that don't believe, or even suggest, that the people they want to get involved with are obligated to like them back in the same way; they just wish that a person they like romantically who only likes them as a friend would like them in the same way. There is a world of difference between 'I wish that person was sexually attracted to me' and 'that person is obligated to be sexually attracted to me.' It's basically a word people made up because 'unrequited love' sounded too pretentious. I think the people you were actually talking about are generally called Nice Guy (TM)s. Not all of those are men, either. I mean, I realize that sticking to facts kind of puts a damper on your whole 'I am alpha-nerd, hear me roar' routine, but you could at least be accurate to the people you're parroting. I get that the posturing and shouting and hyperbole is kind of your schtick, but lately you've let it get to the point of seriously undermining your arguments. I really think you'd benefit a lot from spacing out episodes on social issues more and giving yourself some time to seriously hit the books in preparation.

While I applaud you for calling out the awfulness of David Cage sex scenes, I would just like to point out the sheer unbelievability of the situation leading up to that scene in Heavy Rain is far worse than the awkwardness of the scene itself.

I agree with everything you said except for the David Cage part (only regarding indigo prophecy -- couldn't make it past the first hour in heavy rain to say anything about it). The sex scene in indigo prophecy made sense to me. Sure that game had some flaws but being able to build organic character relations was not one of them. One game reviewer even called the sex scene in Indigo Prophecy the most tastefully done one in video games.

I kind of feel like Mass Effect and Indigo Prophecy are being picked on for the wrong reasons. I think this is a case of complaining spinning out of control. If Mass Effect and Indigo Prophecy never existed, then people would be complaining about how there are no games even attempting to do a sex scene in a mature way.

True; the scene in Indigo Prophecy was much better than Heavy Rain's 'I know you've been up for days looking desperately for your son and still haven't found him and your covered in fresh electrical burns, but I was thinking we should totally get it on.' I was momentarily distracted by the insane nonsense that was the actual plot of that game. All things considered, though, I guess Indigo Prophecy is still Cage's best effort.

 

[Piorn]

Jim talks so much truth, I wouldn't be surprised if it crystallized around him and made him sparkle in the sunlight.

And yeah, we all know these games just have sex scenes so that a bunch of 14 year old guys buy the game, even though they're technically not even allowed to.

 

[keserak]

A frightening amount of men genuinely believe that women are living slot machines, spilling sex into your lap if you deposit enough emotional currency into it.

A frightening amount of women also genuinely believe they are living slot machines, spilling sex into his/her lap if he/she deposits enough emotional currency, or even material goods into it.

Last time I checked, video games were dominated with heterosexual male fanservice, much like western culture, and female sexuality is treated with scorn at turns by popular media to this day, whereas male sexuality is generally unfettered.

So, no, the sides are not even remotely equal here. There aren't even really two sides.

No one fucking told you that buying someone a bunch of shit would lead to anything. That's your own dumbass fault for buying into that mentality. Go out to dinner with someone/buy someone something because you actually LIKE the person and WANT to do nice things for them and will just let whatever happens happen naturally, not because you have some endgoal scripted in your head as to how all of this is "supposed" to end.

It's not nice to lead people on.

It's not nice to demand that other people stop using you even as you use them.

If someone is your friend, congratulations: you have a friend. Lots of us could use even one friend. If you can't appreciate the fact that you have a friend, there is a good chance that you're some kind of jackass. Seriously: that's how being a jackass works.

If someone is mistreating you severely, they're not your friend. Simple as that. The "friendzone" lie depends upon a double-standard that conflates the definition of friend. It says:

a) This person is my friend.
b) This person is using me so --
c) I'm totally justified in using her.

(a) plus (b) is contradictory bullshit. If the other person isn't your friend, then what you have is an undeclared attempt at prostitution, where one party is too limp-dicked to call it what it is. You want a prostitute? Hire a freakn' prostitute (where it's legal). But don't blame an entire gender because you're too pathetic to strike a simple business deal.

Of course, if the person you're with is your friend, you obviously can't use them, nor arrogantly demand that they conform to your desires. If they won't sleep with you, sad for you, but that's not a phenomenon that is their problem. You become a pathetic jackass, as mentioned above, the moment you project your frustration onto them. Worse, because it's obvious to yourself that this is petty, the next step is to expand this blame to an entire gender in order to justify yourself: thus, no matter what relationship you're in, it's never you, it's them.

And it doesn't matter if you have some sort of bizarre "benign" definition of friendzone. The term is used in a malicious manner, and has been, both irl and the internet for decades. The non-malicious use is perverse. This is doubly true since a non-malicious use doesn't even make any sense. If a friend of yours won't sleep with you, you couldn't generalize that problem to that friend's gender at all unless you stepped into jackass territory as mentioned above. . . but if you can't generalize the phenomenon to 49%-51% of the population, how can you even describe this as a "zone?" This is an issue you have with your friend, not "problem friends have." The friendzone specifically implies that "friendship" is a bad thing, unappreciated by the jackass who has it -- thus the "victim" is only concerned about sex and is dismissive of the other person.

 

[generals3]

Ahahahahaha. This video is hilarious. So wait doing nice things for someone and spending a lot of time with that person leading to sex is in some way perpetrating a toxic idea? So what, games should show a character abuse an other in many ways and than that should lead to sex? I thought being nice to someone did increase the chances to have sex with said person? Maybe i've met the wrong people but being a total arse usually doesn't work that well. There is a huge difference between showing people who spend time with each other and are nice with each other to ultimately have sex and stating that the act of spending time and being nice makes one ENTITLED to sex. Is it wrong to show students study hard and than get good grades because somehow that might reinforce the idea that studying hard makes you entitled to have good grades?!

Absurd. Plainly Absurd.

And secondly, please don't legitimize the internet pricks by applying their definition of the "friendzone". Friendzone is a term which merely refers to a predicament into which a person is. Being "stuck" in the friendzone is not some dark "evil" concept invented by chauvinistic pricks. Surely everyone would agree with me they'd rather have a relationship with someone they wish to have one with rather than just being a friend? There is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't show any feeling of entitlement either.

 

[deathjavu]

A man is frustrated that a woman he has an affection for doesn't return said affection? MUST BE BECAUSE SHE ISN'T FUCKING HIM!

Keep towing that feminist line, Jim. Your Misandry is standing right out in the open.

Thank god for AdBlock.

It's the Escapist man, have you not learnt to tune that out yet?

While I agree with what you've said, saying it in an inflammatory manner as you have will only galvanise the issue further.

Spoiler: This is along the lines of what you should have said, and this is now my copy pasta

I've had an interesting relationship with Feminism, which is what this is, second wave feminism. I wish the third wave feminist would stop calling what they're doing feminism, and call it egalitarianism or something.

Anyway, back to me, I made a graph showing my state of mind growing up in an environment saturated by feminist propaganda between the age of about 13 to 23. Some of the peaks are meant to be a bit further back, But I made this in like 5 minutes.

The green line shows the feminist propaganda I've been exposed to. The Red line shows how much I care, you'll notice it is now in the negative because I've been saturated with said propaganda that much (And the pink line) that I fucking hate the movement and everything related to it, to the point where it might actually be having the opposite of the intended effect. The pink line is a little more complicated, it really represents my self loathing. For the longest time I accepted that there was something wrong with me, the peak should really be behind the red lines peak. The blue line represents my identity as a heterosexual male, you can see it has recovered, but not completely; Any hole is a goal. The Blood red line shows how ready I am to initiate gene modification practices to give me both working sexual organs and show everyone how it's done.

I think what's getting lost in translation with these feminist arguments, particularly within the gaming community, is that the majority of males that these people are preaching to aren't in the demographic that caused the strife. Your average male gamer who reads Cracked or the Escapist is about 22 years old and white, and has been blamed for every single civil rights violation, racist, misogynistic, and Environment damaging act that their parents did, while they look up at the glass ceiling that their parents occupy in the super saturated job market, all the while been told that they are useless if they don't have a job and/or live with their parents and constantly reminded to check their privilege levels THE MOMENT the 18-28 y/o white male tries to make the kind of argument I just made.

"We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no great war... No great depression. Our great war's a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives. - We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman Is really the answer we need."

I'm honest to god still confused by this argument every time I see it. I mean...

a) Is it really not possible to ignore these discussions if they bother you that much? This is what I usually do when the news starts to bother me too much- I stop reading it for a while. (I frequently have to stop reading US national news, and slightly less frequently international news.)

b) Are your principles and morals really so swayed by what everyone else is talking about? Don't you have beliefs of your own that can persist in the face of these discussions?

c) I dunno that blaming "someone else" for whatever instance of sexism while simultaneously trying to argue against the validity of said argument (the person you quoted) is really logically sound. Either it exists and it's not your fault, or you argue it doesn't exist and it quite possibly is your fault if it exists. Both...doesn't make sense.

d) The whole "friendzone" thing... I don't even know how to address that because it's clearly a term like "hipster" or "feminist" or "Christian" that has evolved a whole set of conflicting meanings. Suffice it to say there's definitely a definition of "friendzoned" that includes people bitching that a woman they were nice to won't sex them.
(and for the record, I have been "friendzoned". turns out being friends with someone I thought was cool enough to date is not the worst thing in the world! still saddening not to have interest reciprocated but it didn't kill me.)

e) Does Jim really point the finger at the (presumably your) demographic of twenty-somethings? Or is he pointing the finger at game developers? And do we really think game developers aren't at least noticing these shitstorms when they happen? Nobody is that insulated.

f) The original quoted argument makes less and less sense every time I see it. Jim's obviously using a pretty specific definition of friendzone, and not understanding what that definition is when he spells it out reads like deliberate ignorance.

g) I dunno that "propaganda" is necessarily all that less inflammatory than "misandry", although the latter definitely makes you harder to take seriously.

h) We're never going to fix our parent's fuckups if we aren't aware of what they are, which is something all these pieces of "propaganda" achieve quite nicely. If you recognize them as problems, good, fine, feel smugly superior to elderly people. You probably should, they're usually racist too. If you don't recognize them as problems and attempt to paint them as unimportant, well, you probably do need to feel bad about it because you're making it worse.

i) Dear god I wrote a small novel

 

[Aardvaarkman]

I hate it when people describe the friend zone as feeling entitlement to sex, it's not that at all and that's just a nice way to get people to shut up.

I don't see how it could be described otherwise. The fact that it's being called "friend zone" does indicate a sense of entitlement to sex. Otherwise, she would just be called his friend.

Saying that you're in the "friend zone" puts a negative spin on it, and kind of indicates that the guy doesn't really want to be friends, that it's an undesirable "zone" to be in, as if having a friend is a bad thing.

Quick quiz: do the same (heterosexual) guys refer to their relationship with male friends as being in the friend zone? Or do they just call them their friends or buddies, or whatever?

 

[generals3]

I hate it when people describe the friend zone as feeling entitlement to sex, it's not that at all and that's just a nice way to get people to shut up.

I don't see how it could be described otherwise. The fact that it's being called "friend zone" does indicate a sense of entitlement to sex. Otherwise, she would just be called his friend.

Saying that you're in the "friend zone" puts a negative spin on it, and kind of indicates that the guy doesn't really want to be friends, that it's an undesirable "zone" to be in, as if having a friend is a bad thing.

Yes and no. Yes because it is undesirable at the time and no because it's obviously not for the reasons you mention. The reason why it is undesirable is because the "zone" the person wants to be in is MORE than just being friends. Surely you would agree that if you're in love with someone you'd rather be more than friends than just friends? Because that's all there is to it.

 

[Icehearted]

A frightening amount of men genuinely believe that women are living slot machines, spilling sex into your lap if you deposit enough emotional currency into it.

A frightening amount of women also genuinely believe they are living slot machines, spilling sex into his/her lap if he/she deposits enough emotional currency, or even material goods into it.

Last time I checked, video games were dominated with heterosexual male fanservice, much like western culture, and female sexuality is treated with scorn at turns by popular media to this day, whereas male sexuality is generally unfettered.

So, no, the sides are not even remotely equal here. There aren't even really two sides.

You think female sexuality is treated with scorn? That is absolutely wrong. Maybe if the last time you checked was the 1700s but in this day and age it's all about the empowered women. Read a few articles on The Frisky just to see what the radicals have to say about it. Outside just try talking to a few women about it, you can even keep it video game relevant. I suppose it's also about the kinds of people you know in that latter case, but I've never encountered a woman that felt her sexuality was hindered, on the contrary they very much rule the bedroom.

Sex and the city exulted this, as well as female sexual independence. Bridge Jones' Diary, The Big Empty, The Big Lebowsky (which was actually also about castration and the loss of male empowerment), Prometheus, Captain America has a scene where the gentleman Captain was accosted by one woman then punished by another, Cloud Atlas, Inglorious Basters, Iron Sky, Cosmopolis... sorta, while not necessarily specifically about sex the Fantastic 4 Rise of The Silver Surfer had women effectively calling the shots with their male counterparts... especially Torch and the soldier which stand contrary to your whole argument about scorn and unfettered male sexuality, The Dark Knight Rises, all had to varying degrees examples of female sexual independence and dominance. It's become a running gag on most TV sitcoms where a woman chooses to have sex with a man and he jumps at the chance or there's something wrong with him, and those "you go girl" moments are everywhere. TV commercials do this. The list of movies and shows just goes on and on.

Male sexuality is on the other hand usually a joke, it is mocked, derided, or like in Lebowsky it's used in a way to signify the disempowered male. Male masturbation is symbolic for being a sexual failure, male sexual independence is often symbolic for either being a loser or a potential/actual rapist. Male sexuality has been relegated to punchlines or vilification.

In society at large, female sexuality independence has become weaponized, specifically because the laws protecting people from being exploited or harmed sexually favor women. Look it up, it was only as recently as 2012 that men became protected by US sex crime laws.

I'm not saying everyone is like this, and I can honestly say most (not all) women I know agree with me on this completely. Male sexual shaming is in, female sexual empowerment rules the day.

 

[ForumSafari]

I hate it when people describe the friend zone as feeling entitlement to sex, it's not that at all and that's just a nice way to get people to shut up.

I don't see how it could be described otherwise. The fact that it's being called "friend zone" does indicate a sense of entitlement to sex. Otherwise, she would just be called his friend.

Saying that you're in the "friend zone" puts a negative spin on it, and kind of indicates that the guy doesn't really want to be friends, that it's an undesirable "zone" to be in, as if having a friend is a bad thing.

It is a negative thing, it's the Friends-era name for unrequited love and it hurts. It is a bad thing to be thought of as just a friend by someone you care deeply for and want more with, it has nothing to do with sex either, why must everything men feel for women be reduced to wanting to fuck them? My relationship with my girlfriend isn't built on sex and never was.

Quick quiz: do the same (heterosexual) guys refer to their relationship with male friends as being in the friend zone? Or do they just call them their friends or buddies, or whatever?

No of course they don't refer to being in the friend zone when they're with guy friends, neither do they refer to being in the friend zone with women they don't want to be with. Being friends and having someone you have deep feelings for think of you as a friend are completely different. How is this in any way difficult to understand?

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Your average male gamer who reads Cracked or the Escapist is about 22 years old and white, and has been blamed for every single civil rights violation, racist, misogynistic, and Environment damaging act that their parents did, while they look up at the glass ceiling that their parents occupy in the super saturated job market, all the while been told that they are useless if they don't have a job and/or live with their parents and constantly reminded to check their privilege levels THE MOMENT the 18-28 y/o white male tries to make the kind of argument I just made.
...

"We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no great war... No great depression. Our great war's a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives. - We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman Is really the answer we need."

You mean, just like Generation X (which includes members in the mid-50-years-old) felt?

This is not a new thing, you're basically describing the typical angst of a 20-something. The parents of 20-something-year-olds today will typically be members of Generation X. And they had the exact same complaints about their parents, The Baby Boomers. They had the same lack of access to quality employment, and they shared the same lack of involvement in large-scale wars or in sexism and racism.

And in turn, the Baby Boomers felt the same way about their "Greatest Generation" parents, at least until they got good jobs and social privilege. I suspect the same will be true of the current youth. Seriously, tell me that all these 20-something internet billionaires are not going to abuse their privilege and buy expensive environment-destroying vehicles and indulge in other excesses.

Every generation thinks it is not like the one before, but history shows us that we have more in common than we might think.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Yes and no. Yes because it is undesirable at the time and no because it's obviously not for the reasons you mention. The reason why it is undesirable is because the "zone" the person wants to be in is MORE than just being friends. Surely you would agree that if you're in love with someone you'd rather be more than friends than just friends? Because that's all there is to it.

No, I don't agree that is all there is to it. Sure, I might be disappointed that someone I'm attracted to doesn't reciprocate. But I wouldn't go as far as making up a term like "friend zone" for it. The fact that this term was created is indicative of objectification of the other person for purposes of sex.

You don't even have to look beyond this thread to see that there is more to it than simply wanting more from a relationship - for example the guy who asked why they would ever want to be in a platonic friendship with a female who they couldn't have sex with. Actual platonic relationships can be extremely rewarding and satisfying, especially when they are with people who differ from yourself (such as by gender, race, socio-economic status, interests, etc.) and diminishing all that to a "friend zone" seems extremely cheap and somewhat insulting.

I feel similarly about some of the people up-thread who equate "being nice to someone" as buying them gifts or dinner, etc. Or that agreeing to go on a date is somehow "leading them on" - they don't seem to understand that relationships are more about getting to know somebody, not trinkets. If the object of your desire needs to be "bribed" with gifts (as others, not you, have contended) and is the kind of person who would respond to that, you might be looking in the wrong place.

Back to the first point - "friend zone" suffers from the same problems that most such shorthand terms do - they reduce a complex issue to a buzzword. This means that rather than learning from their experience, and improving themselves as a result, the person just dumps all their angst into this buzzword.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

It is a bad thing to be thought of as just a friend by someone you care deeply for and want more with, it has nothing to do with sex either, why must everything men feel for women be reduced to wanting to fuck them? My relationship with my girlfriend isn't built on sex and never was.

But is it a "bad" thing? I think it's just a thing. Nobody gets to have "something more" with every single person they have feelings for. What makes that bad? That's just human society. It would be physically and mathematically impossible for all feelings to be requited.

Now, if you "care deeply" about somebody, then why would you refer to that relationship by a term as cheap and tacky as "friend zone"?

And if it's not about sex, and you are her friend, then what is it about? What's the "something more" that is not covered by either sex or friendship? Unless you have some kind of radical re-definition of the term, "friend zone" is a term that is all about sex.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Yes, I enjoyed the romance in Mass Effect. I would appreciate it if you didn't imply that I was deluding myself over the matter.

 

[Soundwave]

I can assure you this is not filler material. In fact, I attempted to do this episode in my pre-Escapist, non-scripted days and only gave up because I got pissed off fucking up what I was trying to say. I've been looking for an excuse to revisit the topic for about four years now, and relished the chance to do it again.

So yeah, this is FAR from filler. Kinda sad you feel it looks like it is, but trust me, I've been waiting for this one.

If it's not a filler episode, then why did you get the facts wrong Jimmy-old-boy? The romances in bioware games aren't based on "give gift x number of times= free prons", different characters could have sex for various different reasons that emerged from the plot.

My dwarf character in the orignal dragon age, for example, was able to have sex with two comely dwarven ladies because they were interested in having his child, so that they can change their social standing (and it worked for one of them, and gave me a dramatic excuse to cowtow to my evil younger brother who robbed me of my social standing!). That was an interesting dramatic arc that couldn't have happened without my character's willingness to indulge himself in the common folk. I'll grant you that it isn't exactly a healthy natural situation, but that's only one example! You could also, for example, in company of Zevran the "progressive" elven assassin, have up to a five-person orgy (that is only alluded to and not shown) with a character from the second game. Lets also not forget the method of using sex to give new life to a fallen god, in order to prevent the untimely death of either the main character, king or

Spoiler

former antagonist

.

Mass effect, on the other hand, allows for its own variety of possibilities which have lasting effects on the character's story. As an example in that one, I meta'd the narrative in such a way so that my Shepard lost a new female love interest every game (in an homage to Captain Kirk, which all of my Shepards were based upon, in different ways, of course). There were plenty of unique scenarios generated on the plot by the romantic elements.

Arguing that the scenes in the game were the only reward, is like saying the action component in any rpg is "just there for the loot", and ignores the *real* point of having it. (which is to keep you playing the game for hours on end)