most people don't get the difference between 'craftsmanship' and 'art'.
Where the threshold for each one is, may vary.
Where the threshold for each one is, may vary.
Jimquisition: The Definition of Art Games
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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Poor Jim. Thank God you did this.
I thought everyone already went to Wiki to answer their questions.
Well for what it's worth, I agree with your side of the argument. I mean did anyone not know what kind of games we were going to be talking about when we read the title?
Art games.....
I thought everyone already went to Wiki to answer their questions.
Well for what it's worth, I agree with your side of the argument. I mean did anyone not know what kind of games we were going to be talking about when we read the title?
Art games.....
To me an Art Game is a game that puts its visuals and/or the experience at the forefront, with the actual gameplay being a more secondary mechanic.
Decent episode.
Decent episode.
Oh so bastion is an art game or just a regular rpg?
I always thought of limbo as a platformer rather than artgame.
Lolipop chainsaw is pretty artsy. Is that an artgame?
"You know it when you see it", huh? "If you ask, you imply that you actually understand the term" huh?
And what if not? What if this actually is a nebulous term?
Well thanks for clearing that up.
I always thought of limbo as a platformer rather than artgame.
Lolipop chainsaw is pretty artsy. Is that an artgame?
"You know it when you see it", huh? "If you ask, you imply that you actually understand the term" huh?
And what if not? What if this actually is a nebulous term?
Well thanks for clearing that up.
To this moment very I didn't even know that there are people that have a problem with the term "art game". Well, should have seen that coming, it's the internet after all.
Still, a whole episode seem excessive, but Jimquisition exists to spell the obvious to the dumb masses.
Still, a whole episode seem excessive, but Jimquisition exists to spell the obvious to the dumb masses.
I read a quote online that went like this:
"The other word I really hate seeing around is "art" and if games are that. That discussion gets very ugly very fast, and no one wins after having it."
I decided to test this claim. I started a thread at another forum and the second reply to the thread, among other things, had this in it:
"And of course all Final Fantasy series. I mean, look at Ultimecias castle. There is an Art Gallery."
Ugh, I can totally see why Jim would have never wanted to do such an episode. People just dont get it.
"The other word I really hate seeing around is "art" and if games are that. That discussion gets very ugly very fast, and no one wins after having it."
I decided to test this claim. I started a thread at another forum and the second reply to the thread, among other things, had this in it:
"And of course all Final Fantasy series. I mean, look at Ultimecias castle. There is an Art Gallery."
Ugh, I can totally see why Jim would have never wanted to do such an episode. People just dont get it.
The term "art game" is broken in the same way that playing a banned card in magic the gathering in an official tournament is broken.
It allows for a previously unforeseen advantage of one person to engage in a debate with another person using a device that has the clear advantage of relying of "subjective" in it's definition.
Making the argument that "its a word" so it's "legal" is no different than saying, "using this card because it's a card, is legal". Casually this seems fine, however, in a more professional setting the term "art game" carries no intrinsic "value" as to the nature of the game, aside than stating that it's intentional effect is unfathomable, or subjective, or known only to the artist; which gives it a clear advantage of carrying meaning where no meaning exist, or shifting the meaning around by modifying the context any which a' way.
Further it allows for a categorical creation in which the "art game" is elevated to a point of being beyond reproach. Like a "circle of protection", or "rune of protection" in MTG.
Gears of war certainly uses visual effects to elevate tension in a scene, this is by design, to illicit an emotional response from it's audience. So it's art. That is not a bad argument, or a reaching argument, it's simply an observation of it's cinematic design.
I suppose the argument that could be made that as a "composition" the end result of the game "by design" is to illicit this response, where as in gears of war it is a prop to facilitate the transition from one scene to the next.
art game = the total product's theme by design is to illicit a response
art in a game = a thematic prop to push a transition often unrelated to the total product's object goal
"It's Art" philosophically gets a bad rap for being a card played in discussion when one or more people "in the discussion" have nothing substantial to offer to the discussion. Playing the race card or gender card does about the same thing.
As an example... Prometheus is an art film... tells me nothing "about" Prometheus as a film, it does tell me quite a bit about the person making that statement.
It allows for a previously unforeseen advantage of one person to engage in a debate with another person using a device that has the clear advantage of relying of "subjective" in it's definition.
Making the argument that "its a word" so it's "legal" is no different than saying, "using this card because it's a card, is legal". Casually this seems fine, however, in a more professional setting the term "art game" carries no intrinsic "value" as to the nature of the game, aside than stating that it's intentional effect is unfathomable, or subjective, or known only to the artist; which gives it a clear advantage of carrying meaning where no meaning exist, or shifting the meaning around by modifying the context any which a' way.
Further it allows for a categorical creation in which the "art game" is elevated to a point of being beyond reproach. Like a "circle of protection", or "rune of protection" in MTG.
Gears of war certainly uses visual effects to elevate tension in a scene, this is by design, to illicit an emotional response from it's audience. So it's art. That is not a bad argument, or a reaching argument, it's simply an observation of it's cinematic design.
I suppose the argument that could be made that as a "composition" the end result of the game "by design" is to illicit this response, where as in gears of war it is a prop to facilitate the transition from one scene to the next.
art game = the total product's theme by design is to illicit a response
art in a game = a thematic prop to push a transition often unrelated to the total product's object goal
"It's Art" philosophically gets a bad rap for being a card played in discussion when one or more people "in the discussion" have nothing substantial to offer to the discussion. Playing the race card or gender card does about the same thing.
As an example... Prometheus is an art film... tells me nothing "about" Prometheus as a film, it does tell me quite a bit about the person making that statement.
"Take artificial intelligence, for example,"
I see what you did there.
Also, every time someone mentions Journey, I think of the band.
I see what you did there.
Also, every time someone mentions Journey, I think of the band.
I still can't get myself to agree that video games are art.I completely agree with Roger Eberts statement of ''Games cannot be art'',simply becuase art is far too vague for video games.I see developers using the term of ''art'' to convery a ''deeper meaning'' to simply hide tha fact that the game is barely interactive, something which is becoming all too common in this age.
If a game is utterly unique,for example, ''Flower'', which literally cannot be described by any basic genres, I see it as a unique video game, with unique mechanics and gameplay,not art.
Basically I'm saying that art is not a good enough a term for video games.We need to keep searching for appropriate discriptions of unique and outstanding games.
If a game is utterly unique,for example, ''Flower'', which literally cannot be described by any basic genres, I see it as a unique video game, with unique mechanics and gameplay,not art.
Basically I'm saying that art is not a good enough a term for video games.We need to keep searching for appropriate discriptions of unique and outstanding games.
Do you have proof that the term turns off most gamers? Or is it a situation where "most" really means "all the gamers I know, including myself?"Azuaron said:
I am asking because I can point to plenty of games that got the arthouse label and it sold millions. Amnesia is the first on that list, so is Braid, Flower, Journey and so on. As soon as they got coverage as being artistic, their numbers soar.
Also, despite how you try to weasel around it, both Limbo and Braid only got as big as they did because someone first called them an arthouse game. That does not change no matter how many qualifiers you add to it.
You may not have played it, but you've heard of Dear Ester because some one called it art, right?
I think the strange thing about the term 'Art Game', much like 'Indie Movie', is that it seems to say more about the people making it than about the product they are creating.
It's not simply that you have a thought-provoking game, but that it comes from the mind of a thought-provoking artist. Sci-fi game creators don't get any special respect as opposed to fantasy game creators or FPS creators, even if they're financially or aesthetically successful. Art game creators, however, have a certain cache. You're unconventional, you're shaking things up, you're not in it for the money, all that stuff.
Basically, what the term seems to mean is that at the development end of an Art game you have an official 'artist'. No more, no less.
It's not simply that you have a thought-provoking game, but that it comes from the mind of a thought-provoking artist. Sci-fi game creators don't get any special respect as opposed to fantasy game creators or FPS creators, even if they're financially or aesthetically successful. Art game creators, however, have a certain cache. You're unconventional, you're shaking things up, you're not in it for the money, all that stuff.
Basically, what the term seems to mean is that at the development end of an Art game you have an official 'artist'. No more, no less.
Problem with term "Art Game" comes from the fact that it is so vague that months can be spent in really valid discussions are some games art. Machinarium is one game that is a good example for such discussion.
Also, some "Art Games" are not meant to create certain response but just to summarize some long winded point, story or truth or to explore certain subject without strictly expected results. Examples of such games exist since early days of gaming. As Commodore 64 owner back in a day I remember games like The Human Race, Frankie goes to Hollywood or Alter Ego.
And finally there are games that are not Art Games but fulfill requirements for Art Games because they are Works of Art, masterfully done strictly commercial pieces that contain many elements of art games. Mass Effect series is one of those but so is Project Firestart, Ultima 4 and even Divi-Dead (masterfully done hentai digital novel). They all play with our feelings, attach us to the characters, make us feel sucked into the world and create speciall little places for themselves in our hearts.
Finally, Comics are art form. It's just that great majority of comics are shovelware and few truly justify that connotation. Same is with games.
Also, some "Art Games" are not meant to create certain response but just to summarize some long winded point, story or truth or to explore certain subject without strictly expected results. Examples of such games exist since early days of gaming. As Commodore 64 owner back in a day I remember games like The Human Race, Frankie goes to Hollywood or Alter Ego.
And finally there are games that are not Art Games but fulfill requirements for Art Games because they are Works of Art, masterfully done strictly commercial pieces that contain many elements of art games. Mass Effect series is one of those but so is Project Firestart, Ultima 4 and even Divi-Dead (masterfully done hentai digital novel). They all play with our feelings, attach us to the characters, make us feel sucked into the world and create speciall little places for themselves in our hearts.
Finally, Comics are art form. It's just that great majority of comics are shovelware and few truly justify that connotation. Same is with games.
Yes, calling something an art film does tell you something about the film you are watching. It tells you what to expect from the movie in terms of style of film making, editing, visuals, and in a lot of art films cases, lack of story or coherent narrative. It also tells you target audience. Tree of Life is an art film. As pretty it is, Lord of the Rings was not made for the cinema snobs of the world. It was made for everyone to enjoy.mfeff said:
You can argue all you want about how Lord of the Rings is just as artistic as Tree of Life, but no one will listen.
Same with video games. Certain people are gaming snobs and need to distinguish themselves form the rest of gaming.
And the term is not about giving one game an advantage over another, like you magic card thing implies. It's about tailoring the game to correct audience.
My only line of thought regarding this is whether Crysis is an art game or not. I mean, as far as I could tell, at least the first Crysis primary intent was simply to showcase aesthetic and graphical design and the capabilities of the engine.
So does Crysis count as an art game?
So does Crysis count as an art game?
Who cares?
Movies are art. But there's "art movies"
Paintings/visual static creations are art. But not all are done for art.
Books are in a way art. but there's boring books....
All games are art. But not all games are "artsy games"...
And everyone is happiest in believing they are right....
Movies are art. But there's "art movies"
Paintings/visual static creations are art. But not all are done for art.
Books are in a way art. but there's boring books....
All games are art. But not all games are "artsy games"...
And everyone is happiest in believing they are right....
We have a working definition of what an art game is. It is narrow definition because it connotes a small percentage of gaming. It does not include games like Mass Effect 3, Ultima 4, or the other two because those games were designed to make money and not to elicit emotions. What matters in this argument is not the end result, but the purpose.carnex said:
Sorry, but that definition works for movies, comic book, music, and in video games as well.