Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade

[Abomination]

I don't understand how it's my responsibility or problem that a minority of anonymous gasbags had a go at a woman for making "Depression Quest".

I also do not understand how I could possibly change this or contribute in any way.

So I guess "So sad, too bad?".

While I understand it must suck to be this person - it sucks to be a lot of other people.

I always thought that if you're going to make a name for yourself on the internet it's best to simply ignore the opinion of those who aren't disclosing who they are also. If someone's only willing to say something behind the veil of anonymity then that opinion can be disregarded fairly easily.

Victim blaming? No. It's a lesson in how some people can behave without accountability... and if someone has no accountability for what they say then what they say also has no accountability - it is worthless, disregard it.

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't know what's more depressing, the harassment of female game devs because they had the gall to be born female, or the fact that everyone else is too bloody spineless to tell the harassers to go crawl back under their rock when this shit happens.

"Oh, but they'll accuse me of 'White Knighting'"! Big whop. "Grow a thicker skin" and to hell with their neanderthal insults. Stand up for what's right, damn it!

That's unfair! Only women should be told to grow thicker skin! Why should we be held to the same standards!

...You see what I did there? >.>

Why would you put X game on Steam anyway

This is actually my "favourite," because yeah. Why would anyone want to put a game up on the biggest digital gaming distributor in existence? Clearly, she must be an attention whore or want to be berated or something because she wanted her game to be bought and played by people.

While we're at it, I'ma go complain about Skyrim being on Steam. Those sellouts.

Think of it like this, decades ago it was alright to call any person of color derogatory slurs out in public. Eventually people stopped taking that shit by telling those people to fuck off and eventually no one would dare say those words without serious repercussions. We wouldn't be where we are today if for every person that said "don't call this person a X" we had 4 more say "Don't pay attention to those racists" or find excuses for why that person in particular deserved that slur.

At the same time, a lot of people said it'd never change. Same is true of any issue, large or small. There actually was an "ignore it" crowd, and the whole "they deserved it" crowd was pretty large, in fact. Calling non-white people slurs was considered justified, especially in the cases of Latinos and blacks. After all, their presence in America was considered offensive, and they were treated as less than human. Slurs towards "coloured" people are still pretty common, even.

But things will progress, even if there are naysayers and detractors and folks who say "deal with it."

 

[Rabidkitten]

Well intolerance is a world wide issue. It exists in every culture and subculture in the world to some degree. It's an unfortunate effect of human nature.

Did you just do the Bandaras?

 

[That Eeyore]

The way I see it is that the people shifting the blame feel like it's either downplay the harassment or resign to the idea that gaming is a bad hobby.

On the subject of Hyrule Warriors, I was tickled when I saw it on Nintendo Direct. If the Zelda series' reputation can take hits like Wand of Gamelon or Faces of Evil, I think it'll survive a badass looking Dynasty Warriors mashup.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

That's the catch 22 of dealing with jerks on the internet.

If you call them out on it and try to shut them down, you give them attention and those who want attention learn that the quickest way to get attention is to act like a jerk on the internet. You also run the risk of becoming part of the problem itself if you match and sometimes even exceed their level of anger, hate, and venom in calling them out on their bad behavior.

Yet if you ignore them and take the "don't feed the trolls" tactic, it can send the message that those attitudes and behaviors are normal and accepted in whatever corner of the internet you are in and, if left unchecked, can lead to it becoming a horrible echo chamber of bile and hate against whoever or whatever.

Personally I would recommend calling them out but trying to do so in a very calm and unemotional manner, but that usually just leads to people being passive-aggressive and condescending. Damn catch 22s

 

[Church185]

You didn't disagree with a single thing in my video. You seemed to agree with it all, then made up new arguments to disagree with.

I didn't tell you to give the dev money OR police the Internet. Just maybe show some support, or at the very least, shut up as opposed to trying to make sure your *own* back is covered by trying to draw a line between "real gamers" and the harassers, as if the harassers don't talk about games online just as much as the rest of us and contribute to the exact same wider community.

That's what this episode was about. Not about policing or financing, but about - at the VERY least - not instinctively looking out for number one when somebody's been victimized.

The financing part was just an extraneous thing that popped in my head while I was writing and I thought I pointed it out. *shrugs*

I guess to me, the message in the video wasn't clear. The bit about "craven, selfish assholes" and being "cowardly" just seemed like you were shaming people who didn't want to get actively involved in supporting these devs. I don't see anything wrong with trying to distance yourself from the kind of people who would harass anyone because of something they can't control (gender, sexual orientation, race). I wouldn't necessarily say these people aren't gamers, but they are certainly a subsect that most people, at least on this site, would rather not associate with. It doesn't necessarily need to be a cowardly act.

 

[Saltyk]

You know, I really hate that these videos HAVE to be made. I really hate that this is a thing that keeps happening. For those who are immediately going to jump up and say, "Jim, this was a wasted episode, we already know this," well, obviously we don't. Otherwise, it wouldn't keep happening.

I do find the idea that this vocal minority is a group that should be ignored rather hypocritical on gamer's part. As I'm sure these same people will generalize about any group that they deem unworthy or lesser. Beasts who are all instinct and ignorance, without any reason. Completely ignoring that there are many people that make up any group. The people you demonize are likely just a subset of the whole. And just like those few people make you demonize a whole, these few people can make others demonize us.

I'm certain we've all seen it at least once or twice, even if we haven't been victims of it. You play with a girl, who gets mocked or hit on by others simply because she is a girl. Or you know a girl who doesn't speak in games because she doesn't want to get harassed, and worked to make a Gamer Tag, PSN IS, screen name, or whatever that doesn't sound girly. This isn't a vacuum. This isn't something we should ignore.

Hell, even I am guilty of it to an extent. Learning that someone I've been playing with is a girl does make me briefly wonder what they look like and such. It's not something I would act on, but I have a bit of self control. Others don't.

But I think the question everyone really wants answered is this:
What happened with Jim's Fantasy Football team? Did they do well? Inquiring minds want to know!

Oh, and thank God/Polygons/God of Polygons for Jim.

 

[ex275w]

To be honest, the best thing the people who actively harass women and developers to actually harass them is ignore them and let them continue doing their projects without anyone knowing about them. It seems they don't know what the Streisand Effect is, maybe I'll vote for Depression Quest now, because I wouldn't have heard of that game if it wasn't to the people harassing the developer.

 

[DrOswald]

Could we do a metroid with this. As in, create a game that blows everyones mind then release then end credits 1 month later and reveal it was developed exclusively by women.

Robin Hunicke - producer of Journey.

Kim Swift - A member of the original team the developed Narbacular Drop, she and the rest of the team were hired on at valve and are the individuals primarily responsible for Portal. She also played a leading role in design on Left for Dead and Left for Dead 2.

Amy Henning - Head writer and creative director for the Uncharted series. Team lead for Uncharted 2. I don't know if she was team lead for Uncharted 3.

Roberta Williams - Co-founder of Sierra Entertainment and creator the the Kings Quest series.

There are some examples for you.

 

[Something Amyss]

However, as the two popped up on screen, the implication is that Dina (Mighty No. 9 CM) and Ms. Sarkesian have nothing to answer for, that they are similarly two individuals who were attacked because of their gender and as such case closed, nothing to see here, go away.

So explain, then, what they committed that made them "deserve" this treatment.

The problem with that is that we don't tolerate it. In fact, one of the big points Jim makes is that people go out of their way to attempt disown people who do this. Just because it exists doesn't mean the gaming community at large tolerates it. But the fact is that we cannot stop it. The best we can do is call out the idiots who do it.

Except "disowning" is a wide field, including the people who try and marginalise or trivialise and those who pretend it doesn't happen that much. That's still tolerance, and it's still common. As Jim says, they attempt to distance themselves out of concern for themselves.

 

[Callate]

It makes my stomach squirm to be told I'm required to participate in a conversation in which I am given one, and only one, acceptable line of dialogue. I stay out of an increasing number of online discussions because it seems like there's no way to ride the bus without taking it all the way off the cliff. If I stay quiet, people may assume that I am or am not on their side, but they probably won't attack me for it; if I agree with one side but don't become an absolute "yes man" for that point of view and wherever its most radical adherents may take it, I just end up receiving scorn from both sides of the spectrum when it finally comes to the breaking point.

If Zoe Quinn has received even a quarter of the abuse she's reported, that's too much. Yes. And it should stop. And the guys responsible for it should be ashamed of themselves, and if there's an atmosphere in which people feel it is not just socially acceptable but laudable to treat someone that way, I find that really disturbing, yes.

And like so many other games, if you find the subject matter or even its creators objectionable, not playing it is a perfectly reasonable response. Even more so than most: Depression Quest is looking to be available for free.

However,

When an Escapist reporter brought the news of the abuse to the board, one of the things she said was "A game about empathy for those who have depression should not be met with any level of vitriol or abuse."

So, back to that "one, and only one, acceptable line of dialogue" thing? My response was, no, that's not true. I haven't played the game, but I'm not going to say anyone doesn't have the right to find it a facile or insulting treatment of the subject. I'm not going to say that health care professionals might not find its advice misleading or its descriptions inaccurate. I'm not even going to say no one has the right to suggest that a game isn't the appropriate medium to approach the subject, though I'd disagree (I tend to fall on the side that any subject should be approachable in any medium, so long as the creator actually thinks they have an angle that makes that choice compelling.)

That's all directed at the game. And while some might say "Hey, that's criticism, not abuse", I'm not inclined to leave that distinction to those who might be inclined to abuse it; we can't even seem to agree on whether or not games are art.

Someone is probably already reading this while rolling their eyes and waiting for a "TLR". But that's the thing; there has to be room for some fucking nuance; I can't wholeheartedly agree with the extremists, I can't try to explain that it's more complicated than that without trying people's patience, and apparently I can't even not participate without being labelled a coward (but that's still looking like the better option; hopefully the righteous will recognize that scourging the "cowards" isn't the best use of their time.)

It's not at all hard for me to understand why people come to stand on ground that might best be labelled "a plague on both your houses."

 

[Saelune]

I wanna play Hyrule Warriors with Jim. Its nice that theres someone who is as stubborn and loud as Jim who I actually agree with mostly, AND who loves Dynasty Warriors...

Im aware Im glossing over the whole point of the video/discussion...but I kinda was hoping hed just talk about Hyrule Warriors

 

[synobal]

Nothing I can do about it, beyond not being an asshat, if I was to go onto these sites and attempt to "fight" these trolls all I'd do is encourage them. Most sites have an ignore button for a reason and I use it, I recommend everyone else use it as well. Trolls have no fun when they are just shouting in an echo chamber.

 

[Muspelheim]

Obligatory "BUT MEN HAVE IT HARD TOO SOMETIMES SO SHUT UP!" should be coming up sooner or later. Well, after the complaints that the subject is old hat have been aired out properly.

Now... If it should indeed be recognized and made perfectly clear on every opportunity that it's just a few wankers in the gaming community doing this, then why is it so important that radical, misangist feminists be reguarded as speaking for the whole?

As for what you can do; if someone is being a wanker, call them out. It's not terribly hard, and I doubt they could ever do something worse than say that you're white-knighting. Which is usually not the terrible Branding of Shame that those dregs want you to think it is.

 

[Toilet]

I'm going to have the joy of playing Devil's Advocate, because I love it.

The "Internet Hate Machine" is a funny phenomenon but I don't think it is primarily directed at women. I think a small the media campaign comes to the defense of the female victims more often than not in a phenomenon similar to a Missing White Women Syndrome which in turn exacerbates the issue due to the increased publicity. For every Jennifer Hepler I can give you a David Gaider and for every Dina Abou Karam I can give you a Stanley Woo.

It doesn't make it right but it explains the issues, Phil Fish is a perfect example of a dude spotlighted by the media who received an inordinate amount of hate for his opinions. That's why certain members say ignore the hate and stop the discussion because it'll fuel the hate. Every "E-Celebrity" receives some portion of hate from a community on the internet (even our own Jim Sterling and Bob Chipman) so imagine if the initial hate on Anita Sarkeesian didn't get publicized by the media?

It's food for thought, take of it what you will.

 

[ex275w]

It makes my stomach squirm to be told I'm required to participate in a conversation in which I am given one, and only one, acceptable line of dialogue. I stay out of an increasing number of online discussions because it seems like there's no way to ride the bus without taking it all the way off the cliff. If I stay quiet, people may assume that I am or am not on their side, but they probably won't attack me for it; if I agree with one side but don't become an absolute "yes man" for that point of view and wherever its most radical adherents may take it, I just end up receiving scorn from both sides of the spectrum when it finally comes to the breaking point.

If Zoe Quinn has received even a quarter of the abuse she's reported, that's too much. Yes. And it should stop. And the guys responsible for it should be ashamed of themselves, and if there's an atmosphere in which people feel it is not just socially acceptable but laudable to treat someone that way, I find that really disturbing, yes.

And like so many other games, if you find the subject matter or even its creators objectionable, not playing it is a perfectly reasonable response. Even more so than most: Depression Quest is looking to be available for free.

However,

When an Escapist reporter brought the news of the abuse to the board, one of the things she said was "A game about empathy for those who have depression should not be met with any level of vitriol or abuse."

So, back to that "one, and only one, acceptable line of dialogue" thing? My response was, no, that's not true. I haven't played the game, but I'm not going to say anyone doesn't have the right to find it a facile or insulting treatment of the subject. I'm not going to say that health care professionals might not find its advice misleading or its descriptions inaccurate. I'm not even going to say no one has the right to suggest that a game isn't the appropriate medium to approach the subject, though I'd disagree (I tend to fall on the side that any subject should be approachable in any medium, so long as the creator actually thinks they have an angle that makes that choice compelling.)

That's all directed at the game. And while some might say "Hey, that's criticism, not abuse", I'm not inclined to leave that distinction to those who might be inclined to abuse it; we can't even seem to agree on whether or not games are art.

Someone is probably already reading this while rolling their eyes and waiting for a "TLR". But that's the thing; there has to be room for some fucking nuance; I can't wholeheartedly agree with the extremists, I can't try to explain that it's more complicated than that without trying people's patience, and apparently I can't even not participate without being labelled a coward (but that's still looking like the better option; hopefully the righteous will recognize that scourging the "cowards" isn't the best use of their time.)

It's not at all hard for me to understand why people come to stand on ground that might best be labelled "a plague on both your houses."

I completely agree with you, any type of internet discussion tends to be pretty two sided, and both sides completely demonize the other. 4chan will scream threats and harassment and get a chubby while the press will scream at 4chan for them to stop harassing people and get a chubby. No one learns anything, the community is further separated. Maybe learning what the side that started the harassment wants could be jumping off point to actually protect the person being threatened or it could spark interesting discussion between the two sides that could actually lead to something good.

So I guess what I'm saying is that people need to be less extremist and learn to voice their opinions.

 

[GonzoGamer]

I don't know why but I am surprised that this kind of shit comes from more than just little children and religious nuts. Maybe it's because I don't play too many online games. I also don't visit too many nerd sites besides this one. So honestly, I don't know what people are complaining about exactly; what is their reasoning or what is their pathos? It wasn't really clear in the video, or is that just because it's just as unclear in places where dbags post phone #s and crap like that?
But I'm wondering, does anyone bother harassing these people back, maybe suing them when they go too far?

 

[FogHornG36]

We can talk about it until we are blue in the face, its not going to change the nature of the internet.

Sorry Jim, but we do need to talk about it, ever aspect, I personally think this was a false flag operation run by the feminists (they have done it before) to continue to draw attention to their cause.

 

[Erttheking]

While I agree that it is terrible these women are being harassed for simply being born the wrong gender, I can't agree with the rest of this video. I'll verbally support the developer till I'm blue in the face, but I'm not going to throw money at a project simply because the creator was harassed by trolls and crazy people. Stuff like that could be too easily staged. That isn't a point made in the video, it is just something I wanted to bring up. I also don't see anything wrong with simply denouncing the people harassing these women and moving on either. Just because I don't take the time to police the internet, doesn't mean that I'm contributing to this behavior or that I condone it. These devs don't deserve to be harassed, but you paint the gaming community with a wide brush that I don't appreciate.

You didn't disagree with a single thing in my video. You seemed to agree with it all, then made up new arguments to disagree with.

I didn't tell you to give the dev money OR police the Internet. Just maybe show some support, or at the very least, shut up as opposed to trying to make sure your *own* back is covered by trying to draw a line between "real gamers" and the harassers, as if the harassers don't talk about games online just as much as the rest of us and contribute to the exact same wider community.

That's what this episode was about. Not about policing or financing, but about - at the VERY least - not instinctively looking out for number one when somebody's been victimized.

But THOSE harassers weren't on the Escapist, or any other gaming site I know of. So NO they don't contribute as much to online gaming and its discussion as we do.
They have specific type of sites, they say what they want to say and YOU make it look like WE did it.

You know, I really REALLY don't get this attitude. Every time Jim makes a video about sexism and harassment, people get defensive and ask Jim why they're accusing them of sexism. He's not, in fact he's saying only a minority of gamers do this. The problem he was trying to point out is that people either like to victim blame the person being harassed, saying that she should either not feed the trolls or grow a thicker skin, trivializing the abuse she just received, or just say that these people aren't real gamers and that harassment doesn't really happen in the gaming community, once acting like there's no harassment in the community, even though there is, and allowing it to go unchallenged. And I did very much see plenty of people with this attitude while debating about sexism in this community.