Jimquisition: The Wacky Harassment Blame Parade
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
Recommended Videos
You know, if you're going to make claims like that, some evidence would be helpful. You just can't make claims like that with nothing to back it up.FogHornG36 said:
I briefly misread the title as the wacky harassment blame panda. That's a bit of an old South Park reference, I thought, until I read it properly.
I like my version better.
On topic, there will always be internet trolls. How best to deal with them?
It can be difficult to ignore them, but responding can bring more abuse. Obviously if someone is invading your life, as they did in this case, they should be reported.
It's the culture that's to blame, but changing culture takes a long time. Instead of trying to pretend these trolls don't exist, should we respond in kind and attack them, making them outcasts?
They feed off the attention we give them, but they still get enjoyment out of it even if we ignore them.
The only way to truly get rid of this is to continue talking about the problem. If enough people speak out and take the stance that this behaviour is unacceptable, then this viewpoint will become the status quo and incidents like this will begin to reduce in frequency.
At least, I hope so. Otherwise I'll be a sad panda.
I like my version better.
On topic, there will always be internet trolls. How best to deal with them?
It can be difficult to ignore them, but responding can bring more abuse. Obviously if someone is invading your life, as they did in this case, they should be reported.
It's the culture that's to blame, but changing culture takes a long time. Instead of trying to pretend these trolls don't exist, should we respond in kind and attack them, making them outcasts?
They feed off the attention we give them, but they still get enjoyment out of it even if we ignore them.
The only way to truly get rid of this is to continue talking about the problem. If enough people speak out and take the stance that this behaviour is unacceptable, then this viewpoint will become the status quo and incidents like this will begin to reduce in frequency.
At least, I hope so. Otherwise I'll be a sad panda.
I'm not sure I agree with some of this. Certainly harassing women for being women is wrong, we're all agreed on that. But I can't help but feel 'sexual harassment' is such a trump card to play. For example, a woman makes a bad video game and is criticized for it(something that happens to men too) and then plays "Well I'm a woman, therefore you're sexist." argument and boom, completely immune from criticism.
Are there sexist online? 100% absolutely. But is every single solitary criticism leveled against a woman by definition sexist? I certainly hope not. To me that sounds more offensive then not. That women NEED to be protected, that they can't defend themselves and even the slightest bit of negative reaction hurts their feelings.
Again, not defending those who are sexist, but I did follow Zoey's greenlight steam fiasco and yes, some people were horrifically sexist. But then there were others who thought Depression Quest looked bad. Who offered legit, non-gender based criticism, offering opinions and pointers about the game itself. And yet they were being flagged for review and deletion by Admins. I can't help but see a parallel between this and Youtube's infringement crusade. Every video is stealing game footage and every criticism is sexist.
Are there sexist online? 100% absolutely. But is every single solitary criticism leveled against a woman by definition sexist? I certainly hope not. To me that sounds more offensive then not. That women NEED to be protected, that they can't defend themselves and even the slightest bit of negative reaction hurts their feelings.
Again, not defending those who are sexist, but I did follow Zoey's greenlight steam fiasco and yes, some people were horrifically sexist. But then there were others who thought Depression Quest looked bad. Who offered legit, non-gender based criticism, offering opinions and pointers about the game itself. And yet they were being flagged for review and deletion by Admins. I can't help but see a parallel between this and Youtube's infringement crusade. Every video is stealing game footage and every criticism is sexist.
Yeah well here's the thing. I doubt Cliffy B, Phil Fish or Jim Sterling ever got harassed because they were men.bringer of illumination said:
So we come to the same problem we always come to when we talk about gaming community or any other community where members can easily be self proclaimed. Two such communities that are highly relevant here are Feminists and MRE for example. And while those can have some semblance of control and/or reputability video game players have none. Let+s be honest, unless we go in with torches and demand that everyone logs in with their unique identification papers that are their real life identity there is nothing we can do about it. Best you can do is ignore and weed out hoping that undesirables will give up before you do.
Internet is anarchy where nothing almost is sacred and almost no laws apply outside laws made by people and companies that cornered little bits for themselves and where they are virtual gods. And it should stay that way. It's great place suited equally for exchange of groundbreaking ideas and spewing of most despicable vile mouth diarrhea. And you will encounter both no matter who you are. Of course not in the same amounts but then again, not everything hits on the same level. I stand when people accuse my dead relatives of invading land where they lived for generations and it hurts, hurts really bad. And I hate it. And that person shouldn't be saying that. But that's the price all of us are paying for freedom to say whatever we want. And I know some things I say are seen as equally vile and hideous by others. But I am free to state my opinion. And if whoever is code keeper of that place has the power to shut me up and/or remove me from there entirely. If it wasn't like that Internet itself would be far worse stinking pile of Hippo excrement.
Internet is anarchy where nothing almost is sacred and almost no laws apply outside laws made by people and companies that cornered little bits for themselves and where they are virtual gods. And it should stay that way. It's great place suited equally for exchange of groundbreaking ideas and spewing of most despicable vile mouth diarrhea. And you will encounter both no matter who you are. Of course not in the same amounts but then again, not everything hits on the same level. I stand when people accuse my dead relatives of invading land where they lived for generations and it hurts, hurts really bad. And I hate it. And that person shouldn't be saying that. But that's the price all of us are paying for freedom to say whatever we want. And I know some things I say are seen as equally vile and hideous by others. But I am free to state my opinion. And if whoever is code keeper of that place has the power to shut me up and/or remove me from there entirely. If it wasn't like that Internet itself would be far worse stinking pile of Hippo excrement.
I'm seeing too many parallels between this and football hooliganism. Are all soccer fans responsiable for the actions a small, yet noticeable, minority take? If you like Arsenal are you liable for the activity of every Arsenal fan?
I loathe this whole "social responsibility" thing when it comes to people who neither represent me or my views behaving badly. Somehow it's my fault I'm not committing my personal resources into fighting against what are essentially ghosts and phantoms. The only way to actually "fight" this is to encourage such measures as SOPA or whatever.
If you value privacy on the internet you have to accept that this kind of thing is going to happen. People with zero accountability are going to behave like people with zero accountability.
I loathe this whole "social responsibility" thing when it comes to people who neither represent me or my views behaving badly. Somehow it's my fault I'm not committing my personal resources into fighting against what are essentially ghosts and phantoms. The only way to actually "fight" this is to encourage such measures as SOPA or whatever.
If you value privacy on the internet you have to accept that this kind of thing is going to happen. People with zero accountability are going to behave like people with zero accountability.
Oh good on you, you're using the ol' "They deserved it, they were dressed like ho's!" play. Sadly, that's not going to stop me none.Zachary Amaranth said:
In any instance, there is some point where both Dina and Anita are in some degree responsible. And yes, responsible. Not deserving of anything other than the same that a male who had done the same would be levied;
In the case of Dina - Her comments she made prior to her appointment as MC of MN9 could have done nothing less than made a community which has had a lot of utter bullshit flung their way since about '10 act in a manner that could have only resulted in the scrutiny she was put under following her appointment. Yes there's an element of harassment, there is also an element of not looking where you leap.
The case of Anita - See every sensible levey on her productions; Budget doesn't reflect work, plays fast and loose with her evidence, refuses to engage in "conversation" becuase that might mean that her comments would have to be challenged, etc etc so on so forth. If she was male, I'd be saying the exact same thing.
and does that not apply for female Creators/Journalists who have acted in manners similar to the trio mentioned? Or do they get an out because they're women?erttheking said:
If my time on the internet has taught me anything by defending this woman, Jim just wants to have sex with her and it totally white knighting it. That's the thing about some people on the internet. Defending a female doesn't have anything to do with wanting sex. It is about being a decent human being. Unfortunately, that's just how the internet works. You have to dig through the shit to find the gems. That's what the people at Screw Attack and Rooster Teeth do, and they'll tell you, there is a lot of shit on the internet. If they focused on the negative comments they would have given up, but it is the 10% of positive comments that keep them going. Angry Joe will probably tell you the same thing.
Oh, and the girl who is the community manager for mighty no. 9 needs to be fired. She lied to and insulted the community and the community doesn't like her for it. Nothing to do with her being female, she is simply not suited for the job.
Oh, and the girl who is the community manager for mighty no. 9 needs to be fired. She lied to and insulted the community and the community doesn't like her for it. Nothing to do with her being female, she is simply not suited for the job.
i don't know about Zoe, but what I read about Anita was far overblown. There was really moronic and insulting posts, but reality is that valid criticism of her work, which is bellow poor by any standard, is thrown on the same pile and that is just disgusting. It's politic of no criticism allowed and that is something NOBODY with the right mind should support.erttheking said:
captcha is "no means no". Cute
I had to look up "Link's Crossbow Training."
On topic, you know, I'd rather be a white knight than a dick. It's simple as that.
I mean, fuck! If these guys are *really* the minority, then we have no reason to fear them, because we outweigh them. If those who disagree all stood up, these small-minded, obnoxious bastards wouldn't be able to get these campaigns of chimpanzee-style shit-throwing off the ground because they'd be too busy trying to defend their own stupid actions. Why don't we give it a try?
I honestly don't give a shit about this male/female or feminist bullshit because it's not important. When we create an atmosphere where an earnest endeavor to create unique works of art that employ different perspectives from the normal, we're hurting everyone, because it sends a message that we don't want something new and interesting. It will hurt every game developer and therefore it really is the concern of every gamer in our community.
On topic, you know, I'd rather be a white knight than a dick. It's simple as that.
I mean, fuck! If these guys are *really* the minority, then we have no reason to fear them, because we outweigh them. If those who disagree all stood up, these small-minded, obnoxious bastards wouldn't be able to get these campaigns of chimpanzee-style shit-throwing off the ground because they'd be too busy trying to defend their own stupid actions. Why don't we give it a try?
I honestly don't give a shit about this male/female or feminist bullshit because it's not important. When we create an atmosphere where an earnest endeavor to create unique works of art that employ different perspectives from the normal, we're hurting everyone, because it sends a message that we don't want something new and interesting. It will hurt every game developer and therefore it really is the concern of every gamer in our community.
I might have had to avatar-ise that Banderas, Jim. (I'll put it on after Christmas)
As far as the rest of the video goes, I agree with what's been said, and try to speak up about shit like this as much as possible, but the problem is that there is so much of the shit that trying to tackle it all once is impossible.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help as much as possible though.
As far as the rest of the video goes, I agree with what's been said, and try to speak up about shit like this as much as possible, but the problem is that there is so much of the shit that trying to tackle it all once is impossible.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help as much as possible though.
Despite not being a backer, I have been following the Dina one just out of interest.Zachary Amaranth said:
Just to make sure you understand, Dina has been hired to work on Mighty No. 9 as an artist (she designs robots) and as community manager. The people who have a problem with her have several complaints. I will list them here as well as my take on that particular issue.
Before I begin, I would like to note that I have read several pages of posts and I have not yet seen one that was "a woman can't work on Mega Man." This might just be because people are smart enough to hide their sexism behind real arguments, but it is worth noting that I have not seen it. I am sure it is there if I dig deeper but that is not the way the vast majority are framing their complaints.
1. She is known as a social justice warrior, a group which has the reputation of being extremely unreasonable in how the push their views (for example, advocating physical violence in response to sexism.) Whether or not this reputation is deserved it exists and a person abusing their position in a company to push their agenda is exactly what people expect SJW's to do. And Dina is the intermediary between the fans and the development team. People are therefore worried that she will intentionally misrepresent the fans in an attempt to push her agenda.
I don't think this is true. What I have seen of her posts leads me to believe that she is passionate about her views but I haven't't seen anything that leads me to believe she would do this. I think she is passionate but not unreasonable.
2. She was hired due to nepotism. In her own words, her "friends/bf" are working on the project. This has lead people to believe that she was hired due to her connections rather than her qualifications.
This one looks bad but really isn't if you understand the nature of relatively small scale projects like this. The fact is that in the game industry, especially on non AAA titles, most people get hired because they are know to the development team. They know them personally and like their work. This makes them a low risk hire on an already high risk project. Not a problem in my eyes.
3. Her art is bad.
I half agree with this one. I have seen a couple of her pieces of art and I really don't like her style, especially not the gender swapped Beck (the main character of Mighty NO. 9) she made. But if she can suppress her own style for what the project needs she is technically proficient and will be a fine employee.
4. She isn't a big fan of Mega Man.
I don't care about this one. It is a stupid complaint. However, one big problem that has happened in connection to this fact is that she tried to cover this up when she announced herself to the community. While she didn't exactly lie to the community, she definitely and intentionally misrepresented the truth. It is not ok for the community manager to intentionally deceive the community they are working with.
5. She is bad at her job as community manager.
This I agree with. Or, at least, what I have seen is not promising. The post she introduced herself to the community with, titled "THERE?S NO ?I? IN COMMUNITY... ER..." is terrible writing and embarrassing to read. The primary skills required by a community manager are an ability to build a relationship of trust with the community and the ability to effectively communicate. So far she has failed at both, first by intentional deception and second by plain old bad writing.
1. discussing on the internet? lol
2. yes i see your problems with the community and the "good" people that stand aside (i.e. me)
3. what i'm missing here is an idea for me to start on. to rebuild to invent and so forth because basically it's "this sucks and you are a part of it" and well yeah i know that... but i don't know what to do
i really love all your work here on the escapist but i'm sitting here and i "have to" listen to (i obviously don't HAVE TO but you know...it's monday i look forward to your video ) this shit and then i'm moved to be part of the problem with out any kick in the right direction
i visit 4chan. wan't me to go there and tell'em "you guuuuuuys that's mean"? yeah.
i am part of the problem because it's the ecosystem i "live" in? well guess what i'm on earth and ppl kill other ppl. my fault too? what am i supposed to do?
it's easy to point out that everyone is part of the problem sure but so are you jim and you make these videos against horrible ppl and buisness politics and guess what i'm afraid you have to keep making them 'cause i don't see it working so far.(and i WANT! you to keep making these and i show'em to everybody talking bullshit about any of the topics you touched because you are my...moral compass in the interwebz or something)
so i'm not asking "what are you doing to fix it?" i'm asking what am i supposed to do?
if i encounter bs i'll call it out and i'd scream in every idiots face till their ears bleed but those are internetbullys and those ppl don't show who they are so i can't confront them in a way that would MATTER.
i feel this is "rant-y" but seriously i'm somewhat pissed just being called part of the problem if that could be applied on everyone in way bigger scale.
well i have a solution and it would work if humans wouldn't be humans....we'd just all have to stop being idiots/dicks/racists and so forth but trying to change these people in real live? it's like punching a wall
fuck people i guess.
2. yes i see your problems with the community and the "good" people that stand aside (i.e. me)
3. what i'm missing here is an idea for me to start on. to rebuild to invent and so forth because basically it's "this sucks and you are a part of it" and well yeah i know that... but i don't know what to do
i really love all your work here on the escapist but i'm sitting here and i "have to" listen to (i obviously don't HAVE TO but you know...it's monday i look forward to your video
) this shit and then i'm moved to be part of the problem with out any kick in the right directioni visit 4chan. wan't me to go there and tell'em "you guuuuuuys that's mean"? yeah.
i am part of the problem because it's the ecosystem i "live" in? well guess what i'm on earth and ppl kill other ppl. my fault too? what am i supposed to do?
it's easy to point out that everyone is part of the problem sure but so are you jim and you make these videos against horrible ppl and buisness politics and guess what i'm afraid you have to keep making them 'cause i don't see it working so far.(and i WANT! you to keep making these and i show'em to everybody talking bullshit about any of the topics you touched because you are my...moral compass in the interwebz or something)
so i'm not asking "what are you doing to fix it?" i'm asking what am i supposed to do?
if i encounter bs i'll call it out and i'd scream in every idiots face till their ears bleed but those are internetbullys and those ppl don't show who they are so i can't confront them in a way that would MATTER.
i feel this is "rant-y" but seriously i'm somewhat pissed just being called part of the problem if that could be applied on everyone in way bigger scale.
well i have a solution and it would work if humans wouldn't be humans....we'd just all have to stop being idiots/dicks/racists and so forth but trying to change these people in real live? it's like punching a wall
fuck people i guess.
Standing up and making it clear that we won't tolerate the crap that they do? Exactly how is that something that we can't do? It's very easy to do! I went to Steam and typed out a few paragraphs on how what happened to her was disgusting and gave her my support. Took me ten minutes.shephardjhon said:
I actually don't like what Microsoft is doing, simply because while I think it should be banning harassers, there's a difference between that and simple swearing. Steam does delete comments that are abusive and I'm glad that they do, but the whole point of the video is that gamers can't just sit around and pretend that this isn't a problem we can't do anything about. We can do something. Even if it's extremely tiny, we CAN do something. The first step would be to stop victim blaming and pretending that the gaming community doesn't have sexist elements to it..
Actually, dumb question, was that supposed to be a gender swapped Beck or just her in a Beck costume, cuz that is more akin to what probably was going on there (and is something that Japanese staff on things will do, draw themselves as characters).DrOswald said:
My call on it is that she wasn't careful about what she said and that is what got her into "trouble". Replace the gender and it does nothing to solve the ur problem.