Jimquisition: Toxic
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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Hang on! Hang on!
What we saw was people pouring toxic on a woman who in the end totally ended up deserving it. Making nothing but a meandering, disjointed, contextual jumbled clip show where she points at things and says "Look at that.", no discussion of the effects it has or the possible reason behind it's use. No just a fancy clip show really. Kind of what TVtropes does but in video form.
Now was the toxic bile deserved at first? No, it was mostly knee jerk manchildren crying about their toys being shown in a bad light. Are they deserved now? Completely because it ended up being nothing but a biased clip shows that regularly insults gamers as a whole and men specifically multiple times by insinuating these types of people are nothing more than cavemen mentality idiots that can feel exactly 3 emotions, anger, shame and arousal.
Not to mention the blatant plagiarism where footage is used from other people without even crediting them. If I pulled shit like that I'd be expelled from the university.
So can we stop playing up Sarkeesian as anything but a lazy fraud with a feminist agenda? Are we done with the white knighting Jim?
PS: I have watched what has been released of the series so far and found it severely lacking in substance, discussion and depth.
PPS: Also goodbye Phil Fish!!!
Misguided rage is the nasty side effect of the rage turbines over heating. Sadly it is also something we can get past and we should just do so. You can't put out the rage fire but you can suffocate it by taking away it's oxygen, your attention.
EDIT: Can't believe I actually have to say this specifically but seeing as 6 people already had their heads explode when reading this post I am going to do it anyway. I had thought it to be unnecessary but hey, guess I gave people to much credit for being reasonable, faith in humanity adjusted back to -56 points.
Of course the rape threats, death threats and other assault or whatever else kind of threat you can think of is not warranted. It is never warranted to threaten anyone, however never in this video was the word toxic response used to refer to such absolutely disgusting things.
No the toxic response was one where people go mad with rage at perceived slights or single out a person to blame for all the faults in a production. Not once was the word toxic response used in the manner of actual threats, yet some people saw it as me openly supporting sending death threats to people making pointless videos on the internet. Well let me assure you that it was just your over active imaginations. I suggest not spending so much time online, you might learn that there exist decent people that don't approve of acting like despicable human beings.
The toxic response I was alluding to when I said it was deserved was about people calling Sarkeesian a fraud, incompetent, a swindler, a feminist propagandist, a pointless feminist version of TV tropes and so on. You know the regular hate mail that won't land you in fucking jail and turned out to be nothing but 100% accurate accusations. The kind of toxic response referred to several times during the video itself where developers were called frauds, hacks, conmen, liars and so on to let them know exactly where they screwed up? The kind of toxic response with the Jimquisition seal of approval?
Are we 100% clear on this now? Threats = Bad. Criticism and accusations = Okay. Or am I going to get a few more pointless messages railing at me about how I am a horrible person for supporting rape threats?
What we saw was people pouring toxic on a woman who in the end totally ended up deserving it. Making nothing but a meandering, disjointed, contextual jumbled clip show where she points at things and says "Look at that.", no discussion of the effects it has or the possible reason behind it's use. No just a fancy clip show really. Kind of what TVtropes does but in video form.
Now was the toxic bile deserved at first? No, it was mostly knee jerk manchildren crying about their toys being shown in a bad light. Are they deserved now? Completely because it ended up being nothing but a biased clip shows that regularly insults gamers as a whole and men specifically multiple times by insinuating these types of people are nothing more than cavemen mentality idiots that can feel exactly 3 emotions, anger, shame and arousal.
Not to mention the blatant plagiarism where footage is used from other people without even crediting them. If I pulled shit like that I'd be expelled from the university.
So can we stop playing up Sarkeesian as anything but a lazy fraud with a feminist agenda? Are we done with the white knighting Jim?
PS: I have watched what has been released of the series so far and found it severely lacking in substance, discussion and depth.
PPS: Also goodbye Phil Fish!!!
Misguided rage is the nasty side effect of the rage turbines over heating. Sadly it is also something we can get past and we should just do so. You can't put out the rage fire but you can suffocate it by taking away it's oxygen, your attention.
EDIT: Can't believe I actually have to say this specifically but seeing as 6 people already had their heads explode when reading this post I am going to do it anyway. I had thought it to be unnecessary but hey, guess I gave people to much credit for being reasonable, faith in humanity adjusted back to -56 points.
Of course the rape threats, death threats and other assault or whatever else kind of threat you can think of is not warranted. It is never warranted to threaten anyone, however never in this video was the word toxic response used to refer to such absolutely disgusting things.
No the toxic response was one where people go mad with rage at perceived slights or single out a person to blame for all the faults in a production. Not once was the word toxic response used in the manner of actual threats, yet some people saw it as me openly supporting sending death threats to people making pointless videos on the internet. Well let me assure you that it was just your over active imaginations. I suggest not spending so much time online, you might learn that there exist decent people that don't approve of acting like despicable human beings.
The toxic response I was alluding to when I said it was deserved was about people calling Sarkeesian a fraud, incompetent, a swindler, a feminist propagandist, a pointless feminist version of TV tropes and so on. You know the regular hate mail that won't land you in fucking jail and turned out to be nothing but 100% accurate accusations. The kind of toxic response referred to several times during the video itself where developers were called frauds, hacks, conmen, liars and so on to let them know exactly where they screwed up? The kind of toxic response with the Jimquisition seal of approval?
Are we 100% clear on this now? Threats = Bad. Criticism and accusations = Okay. Or am I going to get a few more pointless messages railing at me about how I am a horrible person for supporting rape threats?
No, no no no no no no no no no no no. I couldn't get any further in your post after that. Anita deserved rape threats? She deserved to have games made about her being punched in the face? Why? What the Hell did she do to deserve any of that? How for the love of all that is holy can you say that ANY of that is justified because a woman had the guts to make a kickstarter and three youtube videos?1337mokro said:
It's gotten so bad that even if people turned out to be right about the whole fraud thing (Isn't convinced they are) I would still be disgusted at them because frankly even if she was in the wrong, the reaction against her was so over the top and so much overkill that I cannot sympathize with the people heralding it in any way.
Because you want to know the messed up part? I thought that her videos were boring as sin from the moment they came out but I still feel the obligation to pipe up to defend her whenever these arguments of her "Deserving it" pop up because people are taking a woman who committed the awful crime of making mediocre videos and are trying to paint her as the fucking anti-christ!
And this is the problem with discussion about this topic, you ain't even listeningerttheking said:
Nope. No one deserves rape threats, but you know what the difference between her rape threats and everyone elses rape threats are? She used those threats to gain money. While other people ignored them because it's the internet.
Does Obama deserve a game about him getting punched in the face? How about George Bush? Because those games are out there.
Every single insult you think she said about you, was a 100% true and accurate summation of your character - because the fact of the matter is she wasn't saying jack shit about men or gamers in general, just the lazy tendency to resort to certain cliches which she felt portrayed women in a sub-optimal way.1337mokro said:
Everything else is something you brought into the discussion.
When it came to the XBone fiasco I understand that even the CEO or President of a company/division doesn't actually get to call all the shots sometimes... the problem is then who do you direct your anger at? I guess the "shareholders" are the final culprit but doing so is also the same as leveraging your indignation at "society", that nebulous mass that's as good as pissing into space.
So I think we were right on the money for directing our ire at Don Mattrick. If anything we were at least tossing our hate at the fellow who was receiving the highest salary. The person who was elected to his position and quite frankly DOES have the right to tell shareholders to shut the hell up... sure he might lose his job but at least he gets to go out with the industry knowing he did the right thing.
I mean, where is he now? Zynga of all places - and it's looking a lot like a square peg in a square hole.
So I think we were right on the money for directing our ire at Don Mattrick. If anything we were at least tossing our hate at the fellow who was receiving the highest salary. The person who was elected to his position and quite frankly DOES have the right to tell shareholders to shut the hell up... sure he might lose his job but at least he gets to go out with the industry knowing he did the right thing.
I mean, where is he now? Zynga of all places - and it's looking a lot like a square peg in a square hole.
So the point I bekieve Jim made was be angry for the right reasons with the right people. Shady business practices, false advertising, overcharging money, things like that, yeah blame somebody at the top. I kind of got confused when Jim sounded like he was excusing some of the developers and higher-ups for being under pressure from other parties. I just can't sympathize with those who threaten death to the families of any creative staff of something; that's just not cool.
If he starts his post off basically saying that Anita had the rape threats coming, then really I think I've heard enough of his argument. But even then I went back and read his post. It's the same justifications I've heard a million times by people who try to justify this massive hate towards Anita and I've heard a thousand times by now, and frankly they all just ring hollow to me. People always hated her from the minute she made herself known. Frankly it just feels like they're looking for evidence to support a conclusion they've already reached.Deadagent said:
If someone is going to open his post with a generalization like that, he really shouldn't directly contradict what he said later on. If she "totally ended up deserving it" he shouldn't have to say "but no one deserves the rape threats" Like I said before, even if she ended up being in the wrong I still wouldn't be able to sympathize with the people who were against her because their reaction was so uncalled for and so overkill that frankly I don't even care if they ended up being right, their actions were still uncalled for.
Bush and Obama were both presidents of the United States, directed were trillions of dollars in tax payers money went, made choices in wars that led to the death of thousands one way or another, and may have had direct hands in spying on US citizens. I think comparing those two to a woman who makes Youtube videos is a bit of false equivalence.
Point 1: "Vote with your wallets". I'm so sick of hearing that. It's a rigged system. Publishers have projected sales that a game needs to hit for it to be "profitable". Mirror's Edge is an example: EA projected 3 million sales but after 4 months it only sold 1 mil. In the voting analogy that's 1 million cries of "YES!" to 2 million cries of "NO!" and majority wins -or rather whichever majority is most profitable wins. In Mirror's Edge's case the majority was saying making more would be unprofitable and so it was -at the time- indefinitely shelved (since then it became a cult hit and garnered another 1.5 million sales beyond the 1 million sales report, causing EA to re-evaluate it's profitability). In short, companies count the sales numbers (the "yes" votes) and determine whatever best serves them because they have the "yes" votes but not the "no" votes and thus can spin the "yes" as the majority or the minority however they please.UberPubert said:
Point 2: Calm, rational debate is all well and good, but it's only one tool and no profession uses only one tool. And that's what anger is - a tool. But right now it's being used as a hammer when it's more of a chisel. It's a precision tool that can be used to carve out the unnecessary material. (and because I like the metaphor, rational debate is a drill - it gets right to the heart of the matter and makes way for the screws to be placed in the right spots, resulting in a solid framework)
OT: I have to agree with Jim again, we do need to rein in the anger and use it more effectively than we are now.
You didn't provide any arguments to back up your statements. All you did was insult me and everyone who likes Anita.uanime5 said:
And if I've said it before I've said it a thousand times, I think her videos are boring as Hell. But that's the thing, they're just boring. They don't warrant rape threats and the entire internet being up and arms over them.
Also I never got the whole White Knight being an insult thing.
So she deserves threats of physical violence, rape and death because she makes videos for an audience that isn't you? Please get the fuck out. You can disagree with her, you can challenge her arguments, but the day you do ad hominem attacks and threaten to rape her is the day you have gone too far.uanime5 said:
I've been hearing about how Anita said all these crazy things about games, how she's been SOOOO extreme with feminism, and how she's insulted all gamers, for a long time now.1337mokro said:Hang on! Hang on!
What we saw was people pouring toxic on a woman who in the end totally ended up deserving it.Making nothing but a meandering, disjointed, contextual jumbled clip show where she points at things and says "Look at that.", no discussion of the effects it has or the possible reason behind it's use. No just a fancy clip show really. Kind of what TVtropes does but in video form.BOO!
oh ma god! so scary!
Now was the toxic bile deserved at first? No, it was mostly knee jerk manchildren crying about their toys being shown in a bad light. Are they deserved now? Completely because it ended up being nothing but a biased clip shows that regularly insults gamers as a whole and men specifically multiple times by insinuating these types of people are nothing more than cavemen mentality idiots that can feel exactly 3 emotions, anger, shame and arousal.
Not to mention the blatant plagiarism where footage is used from other people without even crediting them. If I pulled shit like that I'd be expelled from the university.
So can we stop playing up Sarkeesian as anything but a lazy fraud with a feminist agenda? Are we done with the white knighting Jim?
PS: I have watched what has been released of the series so far and found it severely lacking in substance, discussion and depth.
PPS: Also goodbye Phil Fish!!!
Misguided rage is the nasty side effect of the rage turbines over heating. Sadly it is also something we can get past and we should just do so. You can't put out the rage fire but you can suffocate it by taking away it's oxygen, your attention.
I've yet to see anything at all that could be called such with a serious face in any of her videos. Hell, one of the complaints about them that I actually kind of agree with is that Anita's delivery can be very dry.
Also nice job calling Jim names. Totally makes me agree with you more. 0w0 p
Well said Jim, well said.*
For the Xbox One mess, I think it was totally deserved, if Don Matrik didn't show the thing and it was Major Nelson instead, people would've put his face instead. Even after the massive changes they made, I still don't like the overall direction the new consoles are going.
For EA, well, they've made some great stuff over the last few months, so definitely all our anger didn't fall on deaf ears, even if they've made some questionable stuff in the past, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, they're redeemable (gasp!).
For BioWare, well, they made a lot of changes to ME3 thanks to people getting (whiny?) angry and it seems that will definitely affect their future projects.
All of those are great changes, despite the toxicity that ensues or preceded them.
For the Anita thing... meh... I didn't care what she had to say, wich was basically a hi-school exposition reading stuff from wikipedia (I've made better expositions myself), so, even if her work (if we can call it that) is shoddy at best, I don't think the anger aimed towards her was justified.
And for the Fish thing, I've said it once and I'll say it again, good riddance, please do let the door hit you on your way out.
[small]*Eat your heart out Britney, Jim can dance better than you ;D.[/small]
For the Xbox One mess, I think it was totally deserved, if Don Matrik didn't show the thing and it was Major Nelson instead, people would've put his face instead. Even after the massive changes they made, I still don't like the overall direction the new consoles are going.
For EA, well, they've made some great stuff over the last few months, so definitely all our anger didn't fall on deaf ears, even if they've made some questionable stuff in the past, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, they're redeemable (gasp!).
For BioWare, well, they made a lot of changes to ME3 thanks to people getting (whiny?) angry and it seems that will definitely affect their future projects.
All of those are great changes, despite the toxicity that ensues or preceded them.
For the Anita thing... meh... I didn't care what she had to say, wich was basically a hi-school exposition reading stuff from wikipedia (I've made better expositions myself), so, even if her work (if we can call it that) is shoddy at best, I don't think the anger aimed towards her was justified.
And for the Fish thing, I've said it once and I'll say it again, good riddance, please do let the door hit you on your way out.
[small]*Eat your heart out Britney, Jim can dance better than you ;D.[/small]
Well duh.erttheking said:
Everyone knows black or red armor looks cooler! ;p[sub][sub]White is a solid third place. =w= b [/sub][/sub]
The system only seems rigged because regardless of what you as an individual choose, the rest of the market does not bend to your tastes and desires. But just because the side you voted for didn't win doesn't make the other side wrong or make the system pointless, you simply don't have as much control over it as you'd like. A lot of the anger I'm seeing directed at devs and pubs is a direct result of this realization, and it's not fair to them or healthy for the person making the complaint. No matter how pertinent you believe your opinion is, the industry does not exist for the individual consumer, sometimes you have to accept that your preferred game or feature is going to remain niche because that's the only kind of audience that exists for it. And there's nothing wrong with being part of a niche audience, it just means that the products they consume aren't going to have the biggest budgets.kael013 said:
I take issue with the implication that being a complainer is a profession, or even if we're talking about professional critics that anger somehow has a place in their repertoire. Anger is an emotion, nothing more, nothing less. There's nothing righteous or just about feeling angry. It can be a good motivator, but it's not a good reason and it's not an effective tactic for persuasion or even a tool for debate, it's just what someone feels, and feelings are not how you make business decisions or build constructive criticism.
Its not just the gamers that are angry. Just go to Yahoo.com and Yahoo UK and look at the rage in the comments section against anyone that's not the commenter. The British clown unmasking story had bits of anger.
The thing is, listening to and taking every comment seriously is like taking a shouting hobo seriously(no offense to any actual homeless people, I am talking about the stereotype).
Some commentators might be too young or unexperienced or sheltered to understand what is being talked about, some might be drunk or under the effects of drugs, some may be actually really angry at something that happened in their own life, some might just be venting not expecting to be taken seriously. And you take them all seriously. Why?
And yes, this is a mistake I make too.
Channel Awesome's Dark Side of the Internet explains this much better than I or even Jim can(because he actually has to put in some comedy, they don't in that video)
The thing is, listening to and taking every comment seriously is like taking a shouting hobo seriously(no offense to any actual homeless people, I am talking about the stereotype).
Some commentators might be too young or unexperienced or sheltered to understand what is being talked about, some might be drunk or under the effects of drugs, some may be actually really angry at something that happened in their own life, some might just be venting not expecting to be taken seriously. And you take them all seriously. Why?
And yes, this is a mistake I make too.
Channel Awesome's Dark Side of the Internet explains this much better than I or even Jim can(because he actually has to put in some comedy, they don't in that video)