Jimquisition: Vertigo

[JayDeth]

What's wrong with Broodmother, Jim? Or Death Prophet? Unless giant spiders and ghosts are traditionally attractive nowadays. >.>

 

[Depulcator]

What's wrong with Broodmother, Jim? Or Death Prophet? Unless giant spiders and ghosts are traditionally attractive nowadays. >.>

When People Dismiss League of legends for "sexy"/ fan service female characters, I shudder to think if they know about Annie or not.

 

[Dragonbums]

Sick of this 'gender issues' bullshit Jim.
Women aren't represented as variously as men because there's not as many women as playable characters. Developers have only produced pure power fantasy without any of the artistic deviance that comes with an en masse market were products are required to differentiate themselves.
Why?
Because games with female protagonists have traditionally sold poorly compared to those with male ones.
It isn't misogynistic, its a simple case of capitalistic push and pull factors.
Its similar to, say, someone complaining that its racist that not enough anime gets shipped over to their local video outlet, even though they're the only one interested in that sort of thing.

Or maybe those games failed because it had more to do with the game either not being advertised as much, or they just happened to be shit games. (which ironically have female protagonists.) Remember Me, didn't fail because the lead was female. It failed because the games sucked. That's it.

And last time I checked, no game company sent out a survey asking why you didn't buy [insert game here].

Because I'm fairly certain the majority of the answers would go something along the lines of "I didn't have the console for it", "[insert popular/favorite game here] is/was released near that time frame and I wanted that instead" "I didn't have the money for it" or "It just didn't interest me."

Rarely would you hear a response like "I didn't buy it because there was a woman lead protagonist"

 

[Jan Smejkal]

Any time fat, ugly, or evil females are in a game, women complain that they're being mocked.

Any examples? Just, you know, because that kinda contradicts Jim's findings. Women cannot complain about ugly, fat or evil female chars if there have been virtually none. So, some examples please. And please don't come up with some oh-so-evil and at the same booby-butty sado-maso-fetish-dream female character. That doesn't meet criteria Jim (and me too BTW) is looking for. It is just a playmate goes nuts.

Males are appear in many many many many many more different roles than females. Not very often (most are shallow heroic 35-ish white unshaved dudes with short brown hair which is also annoying) but they do. That is a fact.

http://www.thegamersblog.com/fat-borderlands-2-character-has-facebook-in-an-uproar/

There's your example. Gearbox intentionally makes a fat character to inject variety and women ask "Why is she so fat? Can't you make her more normal?"

It is hilarious that you gave a blog post about a reaction to a post on facebook. Well, I have searched for the particular FB post and I find nothing wrong about the reaction. In fact someone bothered to write a blogpost about one reaction of one (!) woman on PC Gamer facebook post! Now that's what we call "making a marble out of fart" in my mother tongue. Let me quote the reaction:

"Well, why can't we have a girl that is normally proportioned but with a good personality and clothing? Like a normal female? Making her unrealistically proportioned just to counter the stereotype and give her an excuse to be clothed is rather silly.
Although, since this is Borderlands, she will be a badass regardless. And, she will fit into the overly ridiculous environment that is Borderlands."

If I find something troubling it is (yet again) the guys' reactions on the facebook post. It is full of disrespectful rude redneck sexist bullshit anyone would be offended by if told to their sister/mother/grandma/girlfriend but is ok with when told to a noname woman (and virtual one in this case). I don't doubt most it are just jokes (horny teenage level and not funny imho), but still.

There are dozens of post from guys saying "fat *****!", "i'd fuck that!", "big boobs!", "nude mode!" and such and one(!) post from a woman saying "another unrealistically shaped woman? Please, give me some realism" and the discussion is about the latter not the former? There is even implication in the blog post and in this discussion that women(!) get nuts when females are not hot(!)? Like, really?

 

[Amaror]

Just to make sure right in the Beginning:
I am NOT arguing that there isn't an issue with female characters in games, i am just arguing with jim's claim of this video.

Just to sum the criterea that was mentioned in this video.
The mentioned character has to be:

- Not player created.
- ugly.
- Not driven by survival.
- Not driven by trauma.
- No goody - goody.
- Humanoid (Added by me, since you weren't actually a fan of vertigo, so it seems)

Ok, i may not be the most knowledgable person concerning gaming characters but i cannot think of any male character's this list doesn't exclude. At least not of the top of my head. I am not claiming they don't exist, i just can't think of one of the top of my head.
Marcus Fenix and Scott Shelby(Heavy Rain) are the first ones that come to mind. Let's check them, shall we?
Marcus Fenix:

- Not player created. Check
- Ugly. (Very muscular so a bit debatable, but just let's say) Check
- Not driven by survival. (Hardly a) Check
- Not driven by trauma. No Check (The death of his Father i think, didn't play the game)

Scott Shelby:

- Not player created. Check
- Ugly. Check
- Not driven by survival. Check.
- Not driven by trauma. Again: No Check.

However i have one female character that popped into my head immediatly:


Kreia from Knights of the old Republic 2.
Let's go down the list:

- Not player created. Check.
- Ugly. Check
- Not driven by survival. Check
- Not driven by trauma. .... Check, just pure revenge.
- No goody - goody. Hell, yes Check.
- humanoid. Check.

Did i miss something or did Jim just didn't look that closely?

 

[ForumSafari]

How about Joanna Dark from the original Perfect Dark?

She's playable, roughly average looking in game (promotional materials have her looking quite pretty but not amazingly outside of the average), has plenty of power and doesn't go through any trauma to get it, she's simply the best at her job.

Her overriding concern is doing her job properly and later on saving the world. Her boss is male and she obviously has a great deal of respect for him but nothing beyond that. Her only interaction with a man in the story that isn't simply shooting them is discussing the mission, of which she is noticeably in charge, and critiquing his professionalism. Oh and she talks to the president briefly but he's an objective.

To reiterate; she suffers no trauma and whilst she is doing stuff at the behest of a man it's not anyone she has a huge affection for, it's her boss and what she's doing is her job. She looks normal on balance, looking fairly attractive out of game and quite homely in game (n64 had cutscenes rendered with in-game artifacts so the cutscenes feature her looking normal) She's easily more powerful than most shooter protagonists of any sex, in any game set in any era. Her looks were deliberately kept normal too according to her designers. Hell she even wears a full bodysuit, it's form-fitting but it's extremely similar to what Snake and Raiden wear.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

This is ridiculous. You really don't have to go far to find a strong, non-over-sexualised, not-so-good-looking female protagonist. I never understood the fuss over this issue because I was always able to bring up 4 or 5 titles every time someone said there weren't any decent female protagonists.
Here's one.

Okay feminists pack it up! Someone just name-dropped an obscure game from a near extinct genre that was first released seven years ago. And sure, the female protagonist actually is conventionally attractive so it doesn't meet the parameters of Jim Sterling's test, but he has like five or six more of these things so, yeah, feminism debunked forever.

And did it occur to you that it's obscure because it doesn't feature an attractive woman? And if so, then it's all about marketing and not sexism so the feminists are missing the point? Besides, I'd never heard of that dinosaur fighting game that Jim brought up. I'm pretty sure Keepsake is more popular than that one.

 

[TheThirdChild]

I remember playing a boxing game way back (beginning of the last generation, I think)and one of the playable characters was this grotesquely fat woman. She was probably made like that for the wrong reasons but I'm wondering if she might count. =/

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

And did it occur to you that it's obscure because it doesn't feature an attractive woman?

Or that it's obscure because point-and-click adventures are a near-extinct genre?

And if so, then it's all about marketing and not sexism so the feminists are missing the point?

"If it doesn't have attractive women it can't sell" -- good luck convincing people that the issue isn't sexism then.

Not all sexism must be an issue. Marketing's just one example. You can't argue with marketing. People like what they like, and as long as they're free to, we'll make it for them.

I don't know, maybe guys value attractive women more than women value attractive guy protagonists. If that's a problem for you, deal with it. Don't expect others to make it their problem.

 

[Rastrelly]

Supply reacts to a fucking demand, not vice versa!

Markets and the interaction between supply and demand are much more complex than you make it out to be.

They are indeed. Yet, as a general rule, on a healthy market it is so. If there is too much of some product for a small cost when there are less common and more expensive alternatives, it's either a major breakthrough, sign of a crisis, or a sign of dirty market manipulations isn't it?

---I---

I can't comment on all of these....

2) Fucking Chun Li, who is DEFINITELY far from general sex-appeal damsel state.

Jim didn't say "Damsel state." Isn't Chun Li motivated by the death of her father? Besides most depictions of her I've seen would paint her as "traditionally attractive." That seems to be two.

4) Faith from Mirror's Edge, who can be considered attractive by some, but faaaar from being sexy doll

But, again, that wasn't the criteria.

7) And Chell from Portal? Again, she can be considered attractive at best and the only man in her life was Companion Cube.

so she can be considered attractive and therefore fails the test as defined.

11) Thomas Was Alone? Square girls, anyone? LOTS of 'em!

Were they protagonists? What were their motivations?

And it's just a quick pick from my memory, where only PC games are! Just! Fucking! Dig!

But if your other examples are as faulty as these, then you really shouldn't be ranting about it. If you can't follow the criteria set out, don't call the conclusion crap. If you want to question the criteria, fine. But there's complaining about a game you feel is rigged, and knowingly walking into a rigged game and complaining you lost.

And if you didn't understand the rules going in, that's similarly your responsibility.

Sorry, what? Did you listen to criteria or what. They were: criteria were - is not a sexified character or one who is generally attractive, not driven by feelings towards male and has not a stereotipical female motivation (is original).
Last criteria is plainly stupid, because "original" characters with "original" motivations are extremely rare BOTH in male and female segment. I am interested only in "not sexified" and "not male-driven/following male" part.
1) On Chun Li: well, we're talking not about "depictions", we're considering how the character is portrayed in-game, isn't it? And we can argue if the revenge for dead family member has anything to do with "male influence".
2) On Faith: Meets all three criteria.
3) On Chell: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/archive/7/7f/20080725081234!Portal_Chell.jpg
I said CAN BE CONSIDERED. EVERYONE can. Chell is exositic and I am not sure if she is or is not generally attractive. Also has original motivation. Maybe.
4) On Thomas was alone: Different. And they all are playable characters with equal importance to the story.

The conclusion IS crap. It's bases on false. Just go, make a game with fat ugly and evil female protagonist and try to sell it. You'd have to make a true masterpiece in all other areas to sell it. Because even females for some reason prefer to play pretty females. It's just is so. Change the audience, change the mind of audience, and the games will magically change! Until then, until females play mostly office puzzles, until they don't represent at leas 30-40% of AAA-class title audience, you cannot even hope to change anything. Thus this Jimquisition is a massive waste of time that could be spent on REAL problems of the industry, the ones that are possibly healable!

 

[ForumSafari]

Joanna dark is unquestionably in the attractive end of the spectrum.

If you're replying to me I'm not entirely sure she is, she's no more attractive than any other similarly well trained woman of her age would be. At least not in the original Perfect Dark (the IP changed hands for the sequel). Remember in the original game she looks like:

Spoiler

and in the XBLA remake she looks like:

Spoiler

Not a hottie, she's athletic and built like someone who does her job would be but that's hardly above the average I'd say. She looks almost exactly like a lot of girls I actually know, albeit with a more masculine haircut.

What you're almost certainly thinking of are:

Spoiler

from the promotional materials and box art or:

Spoiler

from the sequel or many of the more questionable pictures I found which as far as I know aren't official. It's worth remembering that box art isn't designed by the game team.

 

[ryo02]

I cant think of any playable characters of the top of my head but I've got a couple of supporting characters.
Hammer from Fable 2
Ariel from the Soul Reaver Legacy of Kane series
___________

correct me if I'm wrong but many games have a lot of action platforming fighting etc etc so outside of a game that's mostly story wouldn't we have to rule out people who aren't "healthy" by default?.

they can be ugly but once age or weight go beyond a certain point good luck making that jump.

the gears of war women while more slender than they're male count part's were built like amazons just compare Anya from the third game to how she was in the first.

what's the average age/body type of female soldiers and police officers etc etc?.

unless were talking about mages in an rpg they can be any age but then you get into the women are casters problem.

just to set the tone of the above I genuinely don't intend it to sound like "no fatties".

 

[ninjaRiv]

I agree that we need some more badass women in games. Women with questionable morals, women who are more like their male counterparts.

But I'm not so sure about the whole "motivated by trauma" thing. The majority of characters, especially recently, are motivated by trauma. "Urgh my wife/girlfriend/family/unicorn's deeeeaaaaad!" Death of a loved one is something people have been using for a long time now and I don't think it's anything to do with gender. However, the way it's written for female leads should definitely be looked at. Less of the "I was weak before my man was killed" kind of thing.

I also have to question the criteria Jim uses... I'm wondering what the results would be if we applied the exact same criteria to male characters. Sure, there'd be plenty more but I don't think there would be as many as I think Jim believes. We'd get the obvious like Kane and Lynch, the GTA characters, etc... But even then, I'm not sure...

- Not player created.
- Not sexy in a traditional way
- Unique motivations that don't fall into a stereotype
- Not reliant on Men
- Original and creative.

Actually, taking a look at this criteria again, Kane and Lynch definitely wouldn't fit, since they're motivated by trauma, they do fall into a stereotype and, technically, they're reliant on men. They're also not original. Same with the GTA characters, really; they often fall into stereotypes, they're often motivated by the need to survive or a trauma and some of them are sexy in a traditional way.

The male characters we often talk about being sophisticated, original etc wouldn't fit this criteria, really. Adam jensen is motivated by the death of the woman he loves and definitely falls into a stereotype, John Marsden is motivated by the potential loss of his family and is also pretty unoriginal... And so on. Even Booker, one of the best protagonists this year (imo) is motivated by the loss of his daughter and gambling debts, right?

Now, I'm not saying that men have it hard in this industry and we need to change that before we change anything for women, that would be silly. I'm saying video games tend to have sloppy writing and THAT needs to change before anything involving genders can change. Nor more RELYING on stereotypes, for example. So, I don't think this issue is so much to do with gender and such as it is to do with bad writing.

At the same time, I think it's important to keep in mind that the type of character this criteria is looking for would definitely not sell very well. I can't speak for everybody but I don't think the majority of players would care much for a knackered looking, square jaw, scarred woman. As sad as it is, they still want someone they can oggle. I'm not even sure all female players would be on board with that. Actually, I know for a fact there'd be plenty of female gamers who would hate that.

But again, that all comes down to writing. Also, marketing. If we want female characters who can match male characters in the way the criteria suggests, I think it'd have to be a slow change. Write a good story about a woman who does some pretty nasty things (nothing extreme to start with), someone who's motivated by greed or power. Then move onto perhaps altering the traditional sexy look; add a couple of scars, for example. Simple changes that progress. To deal with the current audience, to get them to accept the changes the industry needs, especially with something like this and most gender issues, I think the change should be slow. certainly not as fucking slow as it is now, but slower than we all want. And these changes are already taking effect, despite what some people think; Elisabeth and Ellie are two female characters that we all agree are pretty fucking great, right? The women from Portal and Mirror's Edge are pretty popular! Change should be slow. I am ranting. I will stop... NOW.

To sum up: The changes to female video game characters brought up in this episode will happen when writing becomes less lazy. It's not a gender problem, it's a writing problem.

EDIT: Holy shit, I think this is my longest post ever here... QUICK, SOMEONE LET ME KNOW IF IT'S ALL RAMBLY BULLSHIT!!!

 

[RJ 17]

Only about 860 posts to go and this will match White Guy Defense Force's response! Come on everyone, we can do it!!!

[Sorry, what? Did you listen to criteria or what. They were: criteria were - is not a sexified character or one who is generally attractive, not driven by feelings towards male and has not a stereotipical female motivation (is original).
Last criteria is plainly stupid, because "original" characters with "original" motivations are extremely rare BOTH in male and female segment.

Just want to point out that when you're taking someone's challenge, you can't just ignore certain rules because you think they're bullshit. If you're going to play a game, you have to play them by the rules that have been defined.

The point that Jim is making is that male characters have a far wider range of possible forms to take. Handsome, grizzled, messed up and scarred with a face only a mother could love...their looks can take on many different forms. So too can their motivations and personalities take on many different forms. Females, on the other hand, are mostly cast from the same(ish) mold. They're often attractive (which is the criteria that fails a number of your suggestions. Chun Li is by most people's accounts attractive, as are Chell and Faith...they don't need to be out-right sexified or sexy, they just need to be good looking), often motivated by love or some kind of past trauma, and often owe their success/strength to a man in some way. Also they're almost always "good guys" who aren't morally questionable, but that was just a technical criteria that Jim mentioned in the beginning of the episode and didn't officially put into his list so to be fair we can't count that as one of the actual criteria.

The conclusion IS crap. It's bases on false. Just go, make a game with fat ugly and evil female protagonist and try to sell it. You'd have to make a true masterpiece in all other areas to sell it. Because even females for some reason prefer to play pretty females. It's just is so. Change the audience, change the mind of audience, and the games will magically change! Until then, until females play mostly office puzzles, until they don't represent at leas 30-40% of AAA-class title audience, you cannot even hope to change anything. Thus this Jimquisition is a massive waste of time that could be spent on REAL problems of the industry, the ones that are possibly healable!

And there-in lies Jim's challenge to the game developers and writers: to make something featuring an unappealing female protagonist who has personal gain - as an example - as her motivation and is more than willing to do morally questionable things. You're right in that minds have to change, but how do you change minds? You have to give them examples of what you want them to change to. We'll never know if we'd like a game with such a character in it unless they give us a taste of it to begin with.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Not all sexism must be an issue. Marketing's just one example. You can't argue with marketing. People like what they like, and as long as they're free to, we'll make it for them.

No, all sexism is an issue but the system directly benefits you so you don't want anyone to knock it.

I don't remember saying I'm a male.

And why is Jim knocking the system if it's benefiting him and, according to you, that means he must support it?

I don't know, maybe guys value attractive women more than women value attractive guy protagonists. If that's a problem for you, deal with it. Don't expect others to make it their problem.

"Men place an inappropriate amount of value on the attractiveness of women, and that's okay. Deal with it!" And that's why we're here discussing sexism.

Biology isn't inappropriate. Wherever did you get that idea?