Jimquisition: Vertigo

[Cultureshock007]

Just a point : The actual trend of restrictively conventionally beautiful females in predominant character roles isn't nesisarily restricted to video games. Everything from tv , movies to D&D manuals suffer from it too. The problem is a whole lot bigger than just video games and that's part of why it's a problem. It's a little depressing how it doesn't matter how talented an actor you are, you could be the female Lawerence Oliver if you're a woman and you aren't pretty you just never get hired... depending on the show not even as a background performer.

The reason it matters is because it impacts the self esteem of women. All women, the pretty ones and those not gifted with nigh unnatural beauty. It sets a standard that says "If you aren't pretty then no body will give a crap about you." It's a big contributor to why some starve themselves and sometimes die in an effort to be thin or go through painful cosmetic surgeries or even commit suicide. In the event that an non-model like female character comes along they usually are there for a gag or are a very nasty sort of character.

So with that being said I think dredging up more non-human examples of not traditionally pretty female characters doesn't really help matters. I mean, by all means game industry please make more of them but that doesn't really help matters on the the human body image front.

 

[Benjamin Thayer]

For an actual human protagonist I could only come up with one that wasn't played for laughs, isn't traditionally beautiful, doesn't rely on a male character, and has motivations that while honestly simple would suffice for a fighting game for a gender swap.

She was hated the community and taken out of all further iterations of the game series.

Mitsuko from Bloody Roar 1.

Funny how fighting games were the progressive ones. Who'd have thought it?

http://bloodyroar.wikia.com/wiki/Mitsuko_the_Boar?file=Mitsuko.jpg

 

[Rastrelly]

Ugh pretty much. People keep mentioning side characters and NPC's, Chell like Gordon is essentially sexless but she is still attractive and people talking about Chun-li and Sonya Blade not being hot. Dude, you're gay and there's nothing wrong with that. Just accept it and move on.

1) As for Chell... OK, just watch the video again and caaaarefully listen to specification of first criteria. "Not all about boobs and arseholes". Fits.
2) As for Chun Li... Oh well. It seems you prefer to date with women, whose legs are twice as thick as your whole body is. Cammy IS hot. Chun Li is as much of abomination as Rufus is. We were talking about depictions? About making female characters as distorted and overexaggerated, as many male characters can be? Like Markus from GoW? Here's your example. Right under your nose. Made by same rules of overexaggeration. This is a direct and clear example of what you ACTUALLY WANTED. Same design practices, used for male design, applied to female character. And you will still run around calling people gay. Thank you. My homophobic insides are now feeling honoured.

 

[Olas]

I'd posit Samus Aran as fitting the bill here. I know Jim himself said she was too attractive, but how often do you actually see her in the games outside of her bulky suit? No the fanart on the internet doesn't count. The fact that she's a woman at all is practically kept secret through most of the games till the end.

The female characters from Thomas Was Alone would probably fit the bill, even if they are just rectangles.

I don't think it counts if the character lacks any sort of physical appearance at all beyond 2 dimensions and a hue. I guess you can throw in Mrs. Pac-Man while you're at it.

Chell would probably work too, although she hardly has any personality.

Chell would definitely be considered conventionally attractive. Wearing relatively modest clothing isn't enough.

 

[allizzwell]

West gaming being white is the same as east gaming be asian. People pick what is familiar to them, just like people pick where to live in a group familiar to them. Nothing wrong with that.

Minor problem: the West isn't white (even if people would love to think so),while only around 2% of the population in Japan can be seen as "non asian".Asian games aren't missrepresenting their countries when they don't inculde "non asian" characters,that's just how the demographics are.When a Game made in the USA or Europe only includes white characters,then they forget an important part of their population.

 

[Mahemium]

Vertigo? Vertigo is a character for which you could replace the word "she" with "he" and "goddess" with "god" and it wouldn't make the slightest difference to the character. If nothing is required of a writing team other than to write a quality male character and then replace the name "Heath" with "Heather", then it should be easier than I thought. Here I was thinking you'd have to write a female character completely different to a male one, lest the push for a female protagonist becomes redundant as it lowers it to nothing more than a push for a different skin and voice pack.

 

[Amaror]

snip

Deadpool
Stubbs the Zombie
Kane & Lynch
Trevor (GTAV)
the alien from destroy all humans
Venom
Sabretooth
Dr. Doom
Basically a lot of marvel villains that you get to play as in Rise of the Imperfects, Marvel Ultimate Alliance, etc.
The demon lord from Makai Kingdom.
The protagonists from Overlord 1 & 2.
Bowser.
Wario
The protagonist from Zombie Tycoon.

Deadpool - Not original. Doesn't fit.
Stubbs the Zombie - Tragic Background + motivated by a woman. Doesn't fit.
Kane and Lynch - Tragic Background. Doesn't fit.
Trevor - Tragic Background. Doesn't fit.
The Alien - No Idea, although even if it fits, doesn't speak very well if he's the only one doesn't it?
Venom, Sabretooth, Dr. Doom, Marvel villains etc. - NOT ORIGINAL. Doesn't fit.
Demon Lord - No idea, sorry, i never heard of that game.
Overlord 1,2 - Attractive, or at least not obviously unattractive, since you can't see his face and his body is pretty attractive. Doesn't fit.
Bowser - Where is he the Protagonist? his acts are motivated by Princess peach, though. So doesn't fit.
Wario - Ok, i give you that one.
Zombie Tycoon - Again no idea.

Sooo... An Alien, a Zombie and Wario. Not exactly the biggest amount of characters.

But just to make sure that you also know this. I am not arguing with you, because i disagree with jim's point. On the contrary i fully agree with his point. However i don't agree with his argument. Making a list of arbitrary rules what defines a good character and then complaining, because no female game character fits that list is not good argumentation. Exspecially if said list is soooo arbitrary, that there aren't even that many male characters that fit into the list.
This was just a really crappy episode of jim. Although i fully agree with the point he's trying to get across.

 

[Darmani]

While I don't feel like disagreeing with Rebel Raven the guy who posted that image collection has a point. We HAVE female protagonists in gaming. More and more diverse and more welcoming and appealings to lady's is a good idea too.
Jim's video highlights the issue of the narrow boxes of ladies and how, no matter how enjoyable its constraining to be put in (I get that way with black male characters, we're not all Samuel L Jackson crossed with the big guy from Aliens)

And the vulnerability is a little much.

 

[Sofus]

Jim I think you may be a tiny bit wrong in a few aspects. You see, alpha males who have big muscles and/or aren't afraid to place themselves in danger are the exact same as some pretty woman.

The only games that have protagonists who fit into your little list are Chell (portal) and Daniel (amnesia), every other game I could think of has characters who were designed to be genetically attractive in some way or another. We humans haven't changed much you know, and any woman will pick an alpha male or a rich guy over that Guybrush Threepwood if she had to choose.

 

[Lightknight]

Ugh pretty much. People keep mentioning side characters and NPC's, Chell like Gordon is essentially sexless but she is still attractive and people talking about Chun-li and Sonya Blade not being hot. Dude, you're gay and there's nothing wrong with that. Just accept it and move on.

As I stated two pages back in response to Zachary, Jim's criteria are meaningless. With a wave of his hand he disregards entirely legitimate female characters and entire genres like survival.

1. The notion that they can't be anything remotely close to pretty rules out every girl that isn't explicitly ugly.

2. The notion that their goal can't involve a man would rule out the vast majority of games in which the male protagonist's goal involves a girl.

3. The notion that they can't just be surviving rules out an entire genre.

4. The notion that customiseable characters do not largely meet this need throws out an entire character model that caters to everyone's need. With women having made up less than 20% of the AAA target consumer market, making a game that specifically caters to them would be potentially alienating 80% of the gaming market that would buy the game. Allowing character customization side steps that issue and becomes everything to everyone. Diregarding this throws out a significant number of games that do have that option available.

I'd also generally question who out there specifically wants to play as an ugly girl. How common is that want? Avatars are generally about attributes we want to possess.

The thing about male characters is that just looking handsome isn't all that can constitute attractive. Big and strong, rugged and capable, even dark and dangerous are all qualities that women are regularly drawn to and that mean want to be like. There's a reason why movies like Beastly performed well in the box office despite having terrible critical reviews. Movies with an ugly and damaged man. It is no secret that more than a few women are drawn to dangerous and broken men with the mindset that they, and only they, can tame or fix them.

So male characters like Venom and Sabertooth and all that aren't characters that people don't want to play with. But an ugly girl? Do girls want to play as an ugly girl? Plain? Sure. But ugly? The question is why? What is the goal of creating such a girl unless part of the story revolves around her looks?

I also listed a number of protagonists who were plain or even ugly.
The Cave
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/0/1516/2508490-s4.jpg

She meets all of the requirements. Every single one.

Faith from Mirror's Edge is plain. She is not beautiful or anything like that. So the placement of her as beautiful is entirely subjective.
<spoiler= Screenshot of Faith from the new trailer>http://www.ps4site.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/maxresdefault.jpg

Thomas was alone has three female protagonists. Quick, tell me which block you think is sexy?

<spoiler=Thomas was Alone screenshot>http://samuelhorti.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/thomas-was-alone-1.jpg

I actually strongly disagree with anyone who says that Chell isn't beautiful. I would also place the female warrior from Dragon's Crown on the list of ugly females. But again, subjectivity is a *****. I wonder if the female sparrow from Fable II should be considered here. Attractiveness can be based on alignment rather than character customisation and even the good allignment isn't necessarily pretty.

I'd say that unattractive males are more common. Even given my statement that brawn, mysterious or dangerous looking is an attractor, there have been a few nerdy heroes. Take Bernard Bernoulli from Day of the Tentacle for example. Weak and nerdy. Wario is also a good example and I'd generally place any Mario character there as well, including the princess.

A better criteria here would be female characters that aren't explicitely sexually objectified by their clothing or body dimensions. For example, as I said earlier, a chainmail bikini would be an ideal example of one to throw away. All the unnecessary criteria that Jim throws around is very particular here and often subjective. Again, it fails to capture that male characters do not have to be pretty boys to be considered attractive as an avatar or even in real life.

 

[KelDG]

Boys were never attracted to pink

And what do you have to back that up?

even if baby clothes for boys were pink 100 years ago. the main evidence for this is that boys didn't wear pink when they were children or adults.

Take a look at a Renaissance painting. Guarantee you'll find one young strapping chap in there that wore pink back in the day.
Your defense is laughable because even today there are plenty of men and woman who don't wear the arbitrary pink and blue clothes that their parents made them wear as kids.

Backing up to say - pink and blue used to be switched color wise. Sorry art nerd here - and I hate every time this "pink and red are en-grained in women cause I say so" argument comes up.

Red is the color of blood - and fire and all those angry things. As Dragonbums pointed out Renaissance paintings are a great example of this. Red was the man's color. Once we got the tech to make pastel dyes - we started dressing our kids in the watered down versions of adult colors. So boys got pink.

Blue is considered a soothing cool color usually. Once again - Renaissance paintings, most of our depictions of Virgin Mary have her sporting blue even now. So girls would get blues.

This changed in the last century or so, but even up to the late 1920's we have advertising talking about getting pink clothes for your boys and blue for girls.

You won't get many responses to this, it is to well written, addresses a point directly and the burn factor for the previous commenters is way too high. Interesting stuff.

 

[SecondPrize]

I think you can rule out Amaterasu as she isn't a woman but is female. This also makes Jim wrong because Vertigo is also not a woman. That's kind of surprising in that he set up the criteria and then failed them.

 

[Lightknight]

One thing Jim forgot to consider was the percentage of females that don't meet this criteria compared to the percentage of males who don't meet this criteria. If 99% of female protagonists don't meet this criteria, while 99.9% of male protagonists don't meet this criteria then this means that there's 10 times as many female protagonists that meet this criteria than male protagonists.

This is certainly an important point. Especially coupled with my statement that being a "pretty" boy isn't the only type of attractive that men have where brawn, dark/mysterious, and bad boy are concerned.

 

[Dragonbums]

One thing Jim forgot to consider was the percentage of females that don't meet this criteria compared to the percentage of males who don't meet this criteria. If 99% of female protagonists don't meet this criteria, while 99.9% of male protagonists don't meet this criteria then this means that there's 10 times as many female protagonists that meet this criteria than male protagonists.

This is certainly an important point. Especially coupled with my statement that being a "pretty" boy isn't the only type of attractive that men have where brawn, dark/mysterious, and bad boy are concerned.

Yes, but in terms of looks women don't really have much options outside of average and pretty.

The most examples people have come up with in this thread of women that even closely go into those categories are obscure games on the PS2, and Gameboy color/advance era. With only one example coming from a fairly recent GoW game.

That's not exactly stellar.

 

[Coreless]

Wow, this has got to be one of the worst videos Jim has ever created. Using your own subjective values (key word SUBJECTIVE) to choose which traits are "good and "bad" for female characters in games proves absolutely nothing outside of what you personally deem acceptable. The fact that you use your subjective views as a definitive baseline destroyed your entire video before it even started. Criticizing characters and deeming them not applicable to your list by such irrefutable evidence like "shes too attractive", "not original enough" or "she needs to be interesting" is beyond laughable and borderline contemptible. I can't believe people are actually taking this video seriously, its about as informative as the astrology section of a newspaper.