Jimquisition: Vertigo

[cannedfury]

While variety is good and all, are women themselves interested in playing as such characters? In large numbers that would affect the industry, I mean. I don't recall Vertigo having a strong female following. In fact, while I know girls who dig fighting games and their casts, I have yet to run into any who would give Primal Rage a second glance. They love them some KoF and its clothing models, but not the farting, peeing, claymation monkey game for some reason.

There have been countless butch or generally less pretty women in fighting games since the genre's explosion in the 16 and 32-bit era. Angela, Otane, Oume, and Oshima from Power Instinct, Mitsuko from Bloody Roar, Jane from Fighting Vipers, Mamu from Rakugaki Showtime, Sheeva from Mortal Kombat, Mary Ivonskaya from Tobal, Helga from Clay Fighters, Panda from Tekken just to name the ones I can remember. Not all of them encompass every requirement Jim pointed out, which should have only made them more mainstream. Yet many are having trouble recalling them because nearly all of them have faded away. They were not praised for breaking any molds, they were not met with fanart, and female cosplayers did not honor them regardless of their own build. If anything, women also preferred their more petite counterparts since a lot of them like cute and pretty things. Basically, we have made plenty of characters that defy some or all conventions, and they have collectively accomplished nothing.

Maybe there just weren't enough girls playing games at the time, and either way, it's a trend that could change as things like writing and character depth become more important in games. But we're still dealing with the problems of creating a playable, charismatic female who is so much as allowed to touch a man. Until people get bored of succeeding at that, something tells me Jim's set of criteria won't actually have much of an audience. If gamers of either gender pick up Offspring Fling, it will be entirely for the cuteness and gameplay, not the idea that its child-chucking single mother is unique and progressive.

 

[Pat Hulse]

Peacock - Her motivations center around being used as a test subject, which Jim would justifiably qualify as "power from trauma".

Wait that was one of his conditions? Ok so it's no longer about "there's not a lot of variety in women" and now it's "I can't find my perfect version of a not-attractive female protagonist except for Vertgo".

If we exclude power from trauma we'd have to exclude Kratos, and Niko Bellic and most of anyone else out for revenge.

It's true that we'd have to exclude Kratos and Niko, but there are still plenty of male characters that are strong simply because they wanted to be or because of an intellectual or idyllic pursuit of some kind. The point isn't that characters who get power from trauma aren't interesting, just that when that's overwhelmingly the most common origin story for strong women,

Says who?

I certainly am having a hard time thinking of well-developed, non-fetishistic strong female playable protagonists that don't have traumatic origin stories, but maybe you have a few in mind that I'm overlooking?

it implies that women are only believably strong when something traumatic has happened to them, or to put it another way, because something is "wrong" with them.

Maybe if you get all your information on women from games and read subliminal message that don't exist. Is there a term for reading between the lines information that wasn't actually there?

Haven't played the new Tomb Raider, can't comment on it.

It's not just games. Most popular media tend to touch on these tropes all the time. And people of all ages are subtly informed by our media. Just because a message isn't intended doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If a person who has never seen a black person in their life writes a stereotypical black character, it's still racist even they aren't intending it to be. That doesn't make the writer a bad person, just an ignorant person. And it doesn't make their writing bad, just problematic and potentially offensive. None of these things absolve it from criticism. If such a thing went uncriticized and more and more people used those stereotypes and tropes to the point where they were commonplace in media, other people who consume that media would just unconsciously think that's how black people behave if they had no other media to inform them otherwise. That's why a problematic trope being so overwhelmingly pervasive can have a negative impact on a particular society's culture and why it's important to examine them and how they affect the individuals they attempt to represent.

People who create generally draw from the creations of others. Nothing is completely original, even if we try to be. Character types, story arcs, genres, all sorts of tropes are generally drawn unconsciously from various sources of inspiration, even ones we may not completely remember. We create fictional men and women that fit into certain tropes because that's what we grew up consuming, and if we continue to produce it without analyzing it, we'll just create more of it and inspire future generations to do the same. People learn more through observation than anything else, and at this day and age, through TV, movies, and video games, we perhaps observe more than we ever did before.

 

[Torque2100]

Honestly this video just seems like much ado about nothing. It smacks of a desperate attempt to find a problem where none exists. So often people wanting to point out this problem will create ridiculous and arbitrary litmus tests which the media being criticised will of course fail. Case in point, the so-called "Bechdel Test" which is so pointless and arbitrary that great works of literature will fail it while Lesbian themed porno almost always passes.

The problem is that very few movies or books have female protagonists who aren't conventionally attractive either. This isn't a problem unique to video games it cuts across all media. When was the last time you saw a big budget summer movie with an unattractive female protagonist? In fact, if we take Jim's arbitrary definition of "protagonist" at face value and apply it to movies the only film I can think of with an ugly female protagonist is Monster with Charlize Theron, where they took the very attractive Theron and used heavy make-up to make her look ugly. In the vast majority of other cases, ugly female characters are not protagonists. They tend to be villains or side characters.

This is not unique to video games. It's more indicative of the society that produced it. Furthermore, I don't see the problem. What do we gain if game studios are forced to make games starring ugly old women? Will gamers want to make them? Will they sell games and turn a profit for the designer? If we gain nothing from "solving" a problem is it really a problem? It is a simple fact of life that female humans are judged more by their appearance than male humans. This is not culturally impose bias, it is not sexism, it is biology. Newborn babies have proven in experiments that they look longer and more often at pictures of attractive people than unattractive ones. This is a fact of life, and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

I'm just not convinced that we will gain anything by altering our standards of fun to keep a small, but highly vocal group of Feminists happy.

 

[Dragonbums]

Your really grasping for the straws here aren't you pal?

"And the reality is is that girls liking dolls is more of a social construct. Not a genetic one.
I'll tell you one reality though. You entire argument is riddled with holes.


citation needed

http://gozips.uakron.edu/~susan8/parinf.htm

If girls are so easily influenced then why is it that they don't want action figures or toys guns if they're shown pictures of girls with guns.

How many advertisements for toy products catering to young girls do you see featuring a little girl holding a gun, playing with cars, building blocks, or any other "boy centric" activity. The only one I can think of on the top of my head is Barbie Jeep, and even that is saturated with pinks, glitter, and flowers.

If it's a social construct then you'll have no problem finding a country where most girls play with trucks and toy guns, while most boys play with dress up dolls.

Horrible challenge that doesn't even support your own argument. Most societies today are centered around a patriarchy system where it's expected for the males to go out and work, and the women to stay at home and do domestic work and so forth. If women are expected to stay at home, you wouldn't teach girls the joys of warefare, or explosions. If men are expected to go out and do hard labor outside away from home you wouldn't teach them how to care and nurture for other people.
The only matriarch centered human societies today tend to be tribal indigenous people of various contintents. And it's not like they have toys anyway because they expend all their energy gathering food and surviving against the wild, and other mean neighboring tribes. Once again however, tradition is a form of Mass media for them, and if women are expected to fish while men are expected to hunt boar, then that is what will be passed down from generation to generation.

They're programmed by evolution to care for children, so girls like things that resemble children or are the same size as children.

Caring for children is not the same as caring for a doll Yet alone a princess doll That was your original statement that you guaranteed was fact.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/female-chimps-dolls-sticks-101220.htm

http://www.livescience.com/22677-girls-dolls-boys-toy-trucks.html

So who's been influencing all the female chimps to like girls toys then? Fucking aliens?

"Some young female chimps treat sticks like dolls, handling them in a manner that evokes maternal play."

"Since young male chimps were less inclined to play dollies,"

Note that they didn't say ALL female chimps played dollies, but some. They also never said NONE of the male chimps joined in the play either.

You, and the study also forget the fact that Chimpanzees are a social species. Therefore they are surrounded by other chimps. That includes adults.
Now I'm pretty sure Chimpanzees are smart enough to identify females from male chimpanzees.

If a baby female chimp sees other chimps much older than her and of the same gender constantly nurturing their newborn babies, then they are already influenced from the start that that is probably what is expected of them later on in their lives.
Similarily if a male chimp only sees it's male others not having and nurturing young, then they won't really see a need to play act mommy themselves.

I'm also a bit suspicious about the methods. How would a chimp know a car is a "masucline" toy? and a Princess doll is a feminine one?

Especially if they have never seen one before? It might as well just be an interesting thing to look at.
Not to mention the fact that wild, never been with human contact, chimps are violent, and territorial. I have a hard time believing that these researchers managed to even get two 10 feet from those chimps without having the whole pack beat down on them without some sort of constant interaction with them.

You claimed that girls were being influenced by something because they act in a certain way.

I didn't claim girls were being influenced by a "something" I said that they are influenced heavily early on to like dolls through television ads, magazines, other girls that are influenced by mass media ads and so on.
I gave that "something" a name.

Social Construct: a social mechanism, phenomenon, or category created and developed by society; a perception of an individual, group, or idea that is 'constructed' through cultural or social practice

I pointed out that female chimps act the same way and asked who was influencing them. In other words I showed that you were full of shit.

Read the above post.
Also humans are not chimps.

Also a chimp and a young child are mentally the same.

Humans aren't some magical creature that more intelligence than all animals throughout their entire life.

I'm going to just leave this quote right here and let you think about that for a while.

Then perhaps ponder why your dog is too stupid to realize that the object it's chasing is it's own tail.

Wolves do act that way because caring for their pups makes them more likely to survive. Just like caring for children makes them more likely to survive.

Yeah. Kind of like almost every other species in the existence of planet Earth.

The majority of men in these paintings don't wear pink because it wasn't a popular colour for men to wear.

wat?

As someone else has stated in this thread pink was originally intended to be a watered down version of Red. A common color worn by men back in the day. The color pink was seen as a more stronger color while blue was seen as dainty.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html

Blue, was a color often associated with the Virgin Mary, and as such- being a religious society and all, many girls were put in blues to show their purity and respects to the Mother of Jesus. Not only that, blue was the one of the most expensive colors to produce back then due to the shortage of Lapulis Lazuli. Right there next to purple. So it only makes sense that the Mother of Christ would do the honor of adorning blue garments. http://www.colormatters.com/q-and-a/qa-colors/qa-blue

http://renaissancedancewear.com/fabric_colors_in_the_renaissance.html

So you don't have any evidence to support any of your claims. Good to see you finally admitted it.

Too bad this posts destroys that statement.

It is a scientific fact that girls are genetically attracted to dolls. That's why girls in every culture and female chimps are attracted to dolls. You've also failed to provide any evidence that it's a social construct yet keep shouting that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

See what the first half of this post.

A toddler is aged between 1 and 3, not 5 years old. The studies involved putting the toddler in a room full of toys and seeing which toys they chose.

And what was stopping those toddlers from being exposed to gender specific clothing and toys beforehand?

Girls chose girls toys and boys chose boys toys. This occurred even when the child had malformed genitals and the parents didn't know which gender their child was

So how exactly those a malformed penis/vagina support your claim?
And just because a parent can't tell the gender of their child does not mean they couldn't choose how to raise said child.

So your claim that it's solely due to social influence is clearly wrong.

See the above.

"Mass media is not regulated to just television commercials and magazine ads.Mass media is simply another aspect of social construct. Word of mouth and expectations also fall into that category. Something that many third world countries rely on a lot more than television, radio, and printed press. They can be passed down traditions and expectations from grown ups that the children live around.

citation needed

Mass Media: the media.

Media: the main means of mass communication

So you're claiming that female chimps and women in third world countries like dolls because of oral traditions, even when no one in their community has ever seen a doll before? That's utterly retarded. Also you've failed to provide any evidence to back up your claim.

Let me quote your original statement in regards to this matter: "You've also failed to explain why the same patterns are observed in countries where the mass media isn't telling people which toys go with which gender.

Go back and read the definition of Social Construct and media.

Your dress claim is just bizarre.

It really isn't.

Men worse trousers because they did heavy manual labor and in times of war had to march long distances, so a dress would have been impractical.

By contrast the Greeks, Romans, and many other early civilizations had no problem wearing robes and togas in their daily lives, and when they went to war, they went blazing through in basically chain mail skirts with chest knee, head, and elbow armor.

Well it's not my fault that you didn't get the genes that make you normal. I hope it won't have too much influence on your ability to raise children.

And I hope to God that the majority of the users on the Escapist blaze through this long ass post and didn't basically see your claim that girls who don't enjoy playing with dolls, or are highly un interested in them are not only freaks at the genetic level, but may or may not also be able to have kids in the future.
Which is kind of a slap in the face towards "normal" genetic women that just happened to be infertile.
And I hope to God a good amount of

 

[Rastrelly]

omg I said gay I must be a homophobe. Move to san fran. About a million guys who like penis running around and are homophobes based on that criteria. At least I think you're crying about me saying gay? It's kinda unclear LIKE YOUR MOMS SEXUAL ORIENTATION! jk I'm in a weird mood today...

On topic Sorry man the world disagrees, Chun-li is hot. Cammi is actually a better step in the right direction in some depictions of her with facial scaring.

At the heart of it were talking about games like tomb raider and the like. Primary protagonist that you see all the time. The "you". I just don't feel like thomas was alone is the type of game were discussing and reading the wiki it seems the female depicted isn't the protagonist anyway. Square character round hole. I think chell is a good example of a company doing the right thing, but still not what were looking for though I'm not too mad people are trying to shoehorn her as an example just again doesn't quite fit.

Like I stated above what Jim is really talking about here is a protagonist is downright ugly or disfigured. When I think about myself though I'm a man I have cerebral palsy. Is there a game focusing on a kid with hypertension and a clubfoot? Maybe but I haven't seen it and it will never be common place. I applaud konami for making MGS have a guy who briefly has one arm but even that isn't quite the same thing.

I put myself in place of a pimple faced fat teenage female gamer maybe even disabled. My self-image is likely hurting. Instead of seeing where my character resembles me and is the hero I'm forced to play this fantasy female I'll never be and basically told theres something wrong with me because I don't look like cammi or chun-li.

Jim like me is disappointed with these facts of the gaming world.

1) Man, I didn't call anyone homophobe but myself, which I am and proud of.
2) I'm outta this discussion for otherwise my brain will collapse. Logic left somewhere around Jim's idea about this video, and this all is just a giant timesink.
Consider myself a loser. Have a good day.

 

[Jhonny Malkav]

Naija, from Aquaria is the best female protagonist to date. Unfortunately, she is an exception that proves the rule.
And you people should be ashamed of yourself. I bet everyone just forgot what word "woman" means since Giant Space Lizard-Monster is now "the best playable female character ever".
Overlooking good examples, just to prove your point? Nicely done... Stop playing tricks with your audience, Jim! There are evil corporations on the loose.

 

[allizzwell]

Minor problem: the West isn't white (even if people would love to think so),while only around 2% of the population in Japan can be seen as "non asian".Asian games aren't missrepresenting their countries when they don't inculde "non asian" characters,that's just how the demographics are.When a Game made in the USA or Europe only includes white characters,then they forget an important part of their population.

In the UK 8% of the population isn't white. In most northern and Eastern European countries less than 1% of the population isn't white. So Europe is white and most games in Europe that only include white characters aren't missing an important part of their population. You shouldn't assume that every Western country has the same racial mix as the USA (63.7% white European, 12.2% black, 8.7% white Hispanic/Latino, 6% other Hispanic, and 4.7% Asian).

Yeah,no.I'm pretty sure I know my continent and my country enough to know that there's a level between white and color, that classifying demographics by people's skin color isn't very legal.What far right website did you got those stats from?
Your argument,like most of your arguments is a logic fallcy (what happend to west and south?If people in Japan don't want to be considered as white,why the bleaching creme and the plastic surgery?).Next you're going to try and convince people that being a white,heterosexual guy means being part of a global majority.

 

[Jan Smejkal]

But sure, if we find examples that disagree with Jim, let's just make his ruleset even more arbitrary than it already is.

Save this crap please. I'm just not sure if that counts because the central character is different. You also don't make story-wise meaningful decisions for Kreia so. Also party based. I am just no sure. Where is some female equivalent of GTA 4/5 characters? Or of the Courrier in F:NV? Or Kane and Lynch, the Witcher, the guy in Amnesia, in Gothic, the old guy from Left 4 Dead? Or the famous NAMELESS ONE from Planescape Torment? And this is just me stepping trhough my vast game library. It is not much (which is sad as well), but there are some original male chars. But no female. Really the most original one is probably the girl from Portal (and that is just a model you control).

What suprises me is the fact that there are some (but much less than male) such female NPCs in games but you don't get to *PLAY* as any of them.

Also note that I (and I bet Jim too) would be gladly proven wrong on some big scale.

As i said in my original post, i am not disagreeing with the statement that there aren't as many good female characters as there are good male characters.
The reason i posted critique was simply the fact that this episode of the jimquisition was pretty crappy.
I agree with the message he's trying to get across, but the way he tried to get it across was crap.
He made up an arbitrary amount of arbitrary rules which he claimed would describe a good character.
While each of his rules alone was a trait a well written character would have, mashed together they make no sense.

This is why i said that his ruleset what makes a good character doesn't fit any character, because it just doesn't. It doesn't fit male characters and it doesn't fit female characters.
I can even go through each of your examples:
Gta 4 - Niko Bellic - Tragic Background, doesn't fit.
Gta 5 - Franklin - Attractive, doesn't fit.
Gta 5 - Michael - conventionally attractive, doesn't fit.
Gta 5 - Trevor - Tragic Background, doesn't fit.
Fallow NV - Courrier - Self created, doesn't fit.
Kane and Linch - Tragic Background, doesn't fit.
The Witcher - Geralt - conventionally attractive + Tragic Background, doesn't fit (Besides he wasn't created from the game industry, so he shouldn't really count either way.)
Amnesia - Guy - Tragic Background, doesn't fit.
Gothic - Nameless Dude - Conventionally attractive, doesn't fit.

I don't know the other two.
These are all great characters, yet none of them fit Jim's list.
Yet again: I don't disagree with Jim's point. There are not as much great female video game characters as there are great male video game characters.
I know he made his list as arbitrary as it is, so he could make a funny joke about how vertigo is the best female character gaming has to offer.
But it not only wasn't funny, it also killed his argument, which is not a good thing, because i do agree with his point.

And with this I agree. Completely.

Also Planescape Torment, give it a try. It is available on GOG.com (use Infinity Engine Widescreen mod to play it in ~HD). Awesome and unsusual game in many aspects.

 

[Lissa-QUON]

I think people are taking Jim's argument too literally. Like the Bechdel Test this I think this is less a Law of Requirement and more of a "something to keep in mind."
Hell I'm a woman, feminist nerd sort, and some of my favorite movies are stupid sexist things that couldn't even begin to pass the Bechdel test if they tried or cared to. This doesn't make me love these movies less. But I am not saying all movies should be like them.

Being aware of something's flaws doesn't mean you can't still enjoy or love it. But being aware of something's flaws or short comings helps creativity and media as a whole. Creators from a creative standpoint are unwilling to change if they get no criticism and just keep receiving ass pats.

Jim's list of requirements is pretty long but it does make a few good points. The videogame industry doesn't have a lot of female characters that are playable - with more agency than "lost little girl" or "needs a man" - not designed specifically for eye candy - and are allowed to have a depth of character that allows them to be a villian or anti hero.

Our media as a whole has a tendency to not let female characters be rude, crude, disgusting, or criminal. Or when we do we toss in a lot of fan service T&A to balance it out. She's not a murderer, she's a Black Widow. She's not a con artist she's a Honey Trap.

We are told women can't be comedians, women can't be funny, women can't fight. Women are the virgin, the whore, the mother, the daughter, the femme fatale. Women can't be angry messes who just want to punch things because we are having a bad day. Narrative wise we are dragged into the events, because we aren't allowed the agency to go out and do something ourselves. A female character doesn't get to go robbing banks just cause she wants the money, a female character isn't allowed to go joy riding in stolen vehicles with a baseball bat in hand. We have to be dragged and kicked in the dirt to fight back. We have to be given a "do this or you die" alternative.

 

[asap]

Wow this episode was such a load of bs. Of course your not going to get a AAA game if there is no market for it. Stop being retarded and demanding everyone acts according to your petty desires.

 

[Something Amyss]

Sorry, what? Did you listen to criteria or what.

That's rich, since I was just reciting them. That's the problem. You argued they could be considered to pass. I demonstrated why they weren't. Did you even read what I said?

Apparently not.


Chun-Li "can be considered" to beat the criteria only if you ignore them. Same with most of the ones I drew issue with, which was all the examples I knew anything aboot. I really cannot argue that which I do not know, but I bet most of the other examples fail some key point of the video.

Throwing "can be considered" into the mix doesn't make these any more correct.

But even then, your argument is the equivalent of me asking for a non-super powered comic hero[footnote]temporary power losses don't count, as they happen to almost every powered character at least once[/footnote], and you saying Spider-Man could be considered to be a powerless hero. Except for having super-powers and all. Therefore, he can't be considered.

Attractive is not just the clean shaved appearance. An attractive character is one that appeals to what we want to be like. Plenty of men want to look like powerful badasses, grizzled and capable.

That looks less like Jim making a mistake, and more about you trying to play a semantics game.

I also think you're bright enough to understand that you've added a criteria clearly not part of Jim's list. Do you honestly think, given his video, he was talking about how the video games industry tailors these characters to women? Talking about what women want seems more like a distraction than an honest point. and that appears to be a pattern here.

Ugh pretty much. People keep mentioning side characters and NPC's, Chell like Gordon is essentially sexless but she is still attractive and people talking about Chun-li and Sonya Blade not being hot.

Does Chell have any real narrative or character? I don't play Valve games much.

Anyway, the fact that these characters clearly violate criteria set forth is inconvenient, so it must be ignored.

 

[4Aces]

Bethesda games? Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3 are all pretty 'realistic' in terms that they are not swimsuit models (without mods that is). They are all playable by the character, so they qualify. Of course they are human, not monsters.

I think Sheeva from Moral Kombat is pretty bad with those fingers, but the prize goes to a leveled-up female protagonist from Fable 2. With their steroid-pumped muscles, they look more Trannie than woman. With mis-proportioned body parts, bulging veins, and masculine character mesh, they are ugly enough to make Bethesda cheer. A Cuthlhuoid Vertigo does not have to contend with the uncanny valley that Fable 2 does. At least with Vertigo, you know she is a female of the species. Then again, she is going to eat you after...

 

[Dragonbums]

Minor problem: the West isn't white (even if people would love to think so),while only around 2% of the population in Japan can be seen as "non asian".Asian games aren't missrepresenting their countries when they don't inculde "non asian" characters,that's just how the demographics are.When a Game made in the USA or Europe only includes white characters,then they forget an important part of their population.

In the UK 8% of the population isn't white. In most northern and Eastern European countries less than 1% of the population isn't white. So Europe is white and most games in Europe that only include white characters aren't missing an important part of their population. You shouldn't assume that every Western country has the same racial mix as the USA (63.7% white European, 12.2% black, 8.7% white Hispanic/Latino, 6% other Hispanic, and 4.7% Asian).

Yeah,no.I'm pretty sure I know my continent and my country enough to know that there's a level between white and color, that classifying demographics by people's skin color isn't very legal.What far right website did you got those stats from?
Your argument,like most of your arguments is a logic fallcy (what happend to west and south?If people in Japan don't want to be considered as white,why the bleaching creme and the plastic surgery?).Next you're going to try and convince people that being a white,heterosexual guy means being part of a global majority.

I agree with this post for the most part.
Only issue I take is with this part.

If people in Japan don't want to be considered as white,why the bleaching creme

It's not so much being considered white, but a cultural thing. The paler you are, means the richer you are. Since rich people don't go outside for manual labor, that means that they are financially well off and a more desired potential partner. Which manifests in what it is today.