Final Fantasy XII: I introduce you to Vayne Solidor,who conquers the known world in an effort to obtain Nethicite,in order to fight the TRUE big bads,the Occuria,who are manipulating humankind through "Fate". End of the line,he's trying to save humanity; The only way he can get this done is by being the ruthless emperor of the world so he can secure enough Nethicite to deploy his plan to eliminate the Occuria.
And to think,we thought he was just another conquest-mad emperor.
Final Fantasy IX, Kuja is basically Vegeta without changing sides and wanting to provoke the war to use the situation as to conquer the planet. If i remember there are no emo thing about it, it was just conquest and killing, and the guy liked it that way.
Maybe you haven't finished the game, but Kuja was not only a not conqueror (he was the pawn of one), but once he goes Super Saian (just to stay with your Vegeta comparison) and it turns out he has an extremely limited life-span, he goes pretty "emo" (for what the word's worth) and destroys his home planet and tries to do the same for the party's planet as well, just as a part of a giant fit. Although, to be fair, he kind of falls under the same umbrella as Kefka, with him rope-walking on a thin line between insanity and nihilism, and "being emo" is not all that well-defined anyway.
Still, the final battle of FFIX is technically won through the power of friendship, so there's that...
Dude, no offense, but do you talk about anything else? Maybe it's just because not many people talk about eroge here and so it makes it stand out when you do, but any time I see you commenting on anything RPG/VN/gaming related, somehow it always involves MGQ. Not that it's not a good example here, but still...
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As for non-emo villains, I have nothing to say. I have seen people completely certain that 90% of the already mentioned villains were "obviously totally emo", and I honestly don't even know what "emo" is at this point.
What I would like to recommend instead is to rephrase the OP and the title: Instead of "emo" villains, why don't we look for villains who weren't omnicidal maniacs, who didn't want to destroy the world for whatever reason and instead had different goals from "blowing everything up" or even "conquering everything for no reason"? I think compiling such characters would be a fair bit harder and arguably more useful for people looking for unusual villains.
For example,
Adachi from Persona 4. He doesn't want to kill everyone, he is just a regular, if slightly unhinged bloke who got power without him noticing and accidentally killed a person, which then unhinged him even more and turned him into a two-faced maniac who was playing with the protagonist and co. just for the heck of it. Aside of the TV announcer he doesn't kill anyone and he doesn't want to destroy the world, he is just desperate and fairly nihilistic (which might just be the result of cracking under pressure).
Then there is Izanami on top of that. She doesn't want to destroy the world (or even the town), she just wants to grant humanity their "ultimate wish" like the god she is supposed to be, but she is so out of touch with humanity that she takes the worst approach possible which, by all intents and purposes, would have destroyed the world as we knew it if she managed to pull it off.
Final Fantasy XII: I introduce you to Vayne Solidor,who conquers the known world in an effort to obtain Nethicite,in order to fight the TRUE big bads,the Occuria,who are manipulating humankind through "Fate". End of the line,he's trying to save humanity; The only way he can get this done is by being the ruthless emperor of the world so he can secure enough Nethicite to deploy his plan to eliminate the Occuria.
And to think,we thought he was just another conquest-mad emperor.
Quite a bit of moping from Krelian at the end and how he couldn't remain in this reality because of all the horrible things he's done.
Kefka in FF6 kinda fits this too, hating the world though not putting a antsy spin on things, just reveling in destroying a world he hates and finds meaningless.
Some of the Fire Emblem games are good at this - FE7: Nergal wants to take over the lands of humans and the lands of dragons and rule with an iron fist. FE9: Ashnard is basically the Atilla of FE and just wants to roll over everyone. FE10: Bengion is massively politically corrupt causing a huge race war which eventually leads to the summoning of a dark god who basically looks at the fact that everyone is trying to kill each other and says "Fuck this shit Ima just end the world b/c you idiots clearly can't run it", and FE: Awakening of course has "I'M AN EVIL DRAGON GOD I'M GOING TO EAT YOUR PARENTS IN FRONT OF YOU. AND THEN I'M GOING TO EAT YOU."
Valkyria Chronicles (well the first one at least) is very good at this. VC 1: "We're fantasy Nazi Germany, and you happen to be a combination of today's Middle East and WWII Switzerland." VC 2 (the only other one with an English release so far)... well there aren't any primary characters who would fit the description of "emo", but... Dealing with themes of internal strife and rebellion while in a Japanese High School setting just doesn't really work as well. Has some interesting class options though. Buglers are a thing!
Uh... what else? Uhh... the Metal Gear main series games are technically a different type of JRPG.
The Final Fantasy Tactics Advance series is good for this. The first one I don't like for the same reason I dislike SAO - You're telling me that there's this fantasy world that you know about and enjoy, and suddenly you find yourself inside said fantasy world, and the first thing that comes to mind is... to leave as soon as possible? I mean yes, the initial shock may freak people out a bit. Which brings me to why FFTA2 is so much better. Because that's exactly how Luso plays. Initially, his main focus is to go home ASAP, and one could understand how one might feel that way after being dropped in front of a giant Cockatrice. And a notoriously murder-ey one at that. But over time Luso grows attached to the world and at the end of the game only leaves because of a sense of duty to his family, but apart from that he really does not want to leave, and I think that's a much more realistic character. Sorry, got off on a tangent there.
Wait, this isn't emo? Not to mention Caius, well.....He seems to hit a lot of the "emo" stereotype buttons pretty hard.
But it's hard for me to see "I'm going to screw over the entire universe to save one person(who is pretty much doomed regardless)" as not being incredibly emo.
Radiant Historia. It's kind of the whole "The world is shit" mindset, but it's less "It'll make everything better" and more "FUCK EVERYTHING!"
Also I find that the villain being a whiny brat who wants to destroy the world because he had a bad life to normally be annoying too, but I found the main villain of Radiant Historia really engaging. Despite the fuck everything aspect of his character, he is actually an interesting character, has people he cares about and when you learn his backstory you learn that he really got a shit hand in life that makes his actions understandable.
I liked Radiant Historia because of that and the fact that on one hand, the world was on a slow track to almost certain ruin(considering almost every possible future leads to humanity dying out and the world turning to desert), and on the other hand, you kept getting distracted by the big war which involved a lot of political backstabbing and pretty much did nothing to solve the problem. The true goal was to stop the war, not to help one side win it.
It reminded me of Final Fantasy Tactics, except where the "save the world" and "political backstabbing" plots intertwined a lot better, as opposed to "Intrigue, Backstab, Intrigue" and then "okay, that's done. Fight demons!"
Been a while since I've played it, so my memory may be a little off and correct me if I'm wrong, but *spoilers* in FFX Sin, whilst you'd the whole religious "rebirth" tie in aside, was on the whole way more about a father-son relationship than simple world destroying desires. If anything Jecht begrudged his role.*end spoilers*
Pyrian said:
Not strictly (or even remotely) a JRPG, but still a turn-based fantasy tactical RPG: Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall. The villain's motivation is to save the world, and you must stop him. =D
Please tell me you're avatar is actually you mate? I thrive on that pic, proper cheesy-cool, and duly tip my hat to you if it is? *tips hat in advance*
Disgaea 1 has been mentioned, so might as well bring up Disgaea 2.
The main antagonist actually just already won before the game started and owns the entire planet. He's perfectly happy just chilling in his castle, content with what he's got. He just wants the protagonists to stop trying to ruin his sweet set-up.
I kind of disagree with you about Seymour being a bug bad. He is but a nuisance, like, for example, Gilgamesh in FFV. IMO, this game hadn't even had a villain.
Okay, back to the topic. Some people have already mentioned Valkyria Chronicles and Chrono Trigger. As for my personal example: Persona 4. The big bad is
Izanami. Without getting to much in japanese mythology: She is a half of parent gods of Japan with other being Izanagi. So, in mythos, she dies, goes to hell, Izanagi goes to hell Orpheus style, sees that she is rotten, gets scared, runs away. Izanami vows to kill a person every day. As far as I understood, she is doing her thing in P4 to avenge her betreyal.
Persona 2 comes to mind too. How about space gamble?
Or, hell, every game in Shin Megami Tensei lacks this (as far as I am aware).
Golden Sun does a great job of creating believable antagonists (I won't really say villains)
SPOILERS AHOY!!
The first game has you trying to stop a group of warriors from relighting the four elemental beacons of the world, which would bring back the mythical force of alchemy (which is portrayed as elemental psychic power, think bending but with a wider range of applications) which for rather vague reasons would be bad. It's heavily hinted throughout that this may not really be a bad thing and that your quest to stop them is the result of hundreds of years of ingrained dogma and the being that set you on it may not be entirely trustworthy.
Cut to the second game and you are actually controlling the group of warriors trying to relight the beacons. Moreover your main character Felix, is only really doing it because his companions are holding his parents hostage, as well as several other family members of his friends. However as the quest goes on Felix and the allies he recruits to his cause begin to believe more in the quest and eventually learn that the world is eroding from the northernmost parts down (the world is flat and bordered by massive waterfalls where the ocean just basically flows into space). Felix's erstwhile companions, the ones holding his parents hostage as leverage, hail from a village in the roof of the world which is threatened by this erosion and so they where charged with finding a group of adepts (masters of a particular elemental magic) to scale and relight each beacon. These beacons lie on the tops of massive towers, the games dungeons, and can only be scaled with the assistance of an adept of that element (Mars adept-fire, Venus-earth, mercury-water, and Jupiter-wind). The implication is that the man made seal on the alchemical force has thrown the word out of its natural order and caused it to destabilize, and that unsealing the force would fix that.
Anyway it's a great RPG with cool character building systems, a rather pretty style, and really great puzzle solving aspects. Plus good characters. It's also got a wind water esque overworld with a focus on sailing and exploration so that's always fun. And a ton of optional content including some of the most difficult endgame bosses in gaming.
The Final Fantasy Tactics Advance series is good for this. The first one I don't like for the same reason I dislike SAO - You're telling me that there's this fantasy world that you know about and enjoy, and suddenly you find yourself inside said fantasy world, and the first thing that comes to mind is... to leave as soon as possible? I mean yes, the initial shock may freak people out a bit. Which brings me to why FFTA2 is so much better. Because that's exactly how Luso plays. Initially, his main focus is to go home ASAP, and one could understand how one might feel that way after being dropped in front of a giant Cockatrice. And a notoriously murder-ey one at that. But over time Luso grows attached to the world and at the end of the game only leaves because of a sense of duty to his family, but apart from that he really does not want to leave, and I think that's a much more realistic character. Sorry, got off on a tangent there.
I came long ago to the conclusion that in FF Tactics Advance 1 the main big villain is actually the player character. There's no massive catastrophe or ancient evil looming overhead in the story, the world just is like it is, but Marche, wanting to go home, decides to basically tear the world apart by going after the Crystals and eventually the Queen. I think it adds another layer of depth to an already pretty meaty story.
Not gonna touch "emo"... that's a word overused to the point of lacking a meaning, but I definitely understand your frustration with nihilistic villains who base their reasons for being so on circular logic and bizarre "destroy it to save it!" tantrums.
Granted, "the seymour" (he was far from the first, but thanks to Spoony he's one of the best known out of JRPG circles, so he's who I turn to as a title for this type of villain) isn't really all that common in JRPGs. In my opinion the genre is no worse than any other game genre for villains being a little underwhelming. As to finding a JRPG that definitively lacks such a villain, well, the perfect title was dropped earlier:
Fappy said:
- In Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne some of the characters that may or may not become your enemies are pretty emo, but ultimately Kagutsuchi and Lucifer are just evil forces of nature. You could probably make the same point for a lot of other SMT games, honestly. It's usually a war over ideals, but it's never really whiny or lame.
most SMT games qualify, really, the games are highly stylized, and full of zany japanese-ness, but they touch on a lot of mature themes, and handles them well (most of the time, some of the titles do go full-blown anime and get lost in navel contemplation)
Nocturne, though, is the best for the request you made for one solid reason: no bad guy can want to destroy all of creation... because all of creation comes pre-destroyed! Instead the game's conflict comes from the handful of strong wills that remain fighting over what image the world will be reincarnated in.
thus, based on who you decide to throw your hat in the ring with, who the "villain" is and what motivates them can vary wildly. Heck, the only person who has the option of wanting to literally re-destroy the already destroyed everything is the player character, if the player so chooses. invoking the ending I lovingly refer to as "screw you guys trying to manipulate me, I'm taking my ball and going home!"
I'm playing the second one now (started a few days ago) on the WiiU, since they released the first and second (are there more?) in the Eshop as downloadable content. Really enjoyed the first one and the second seems to be following in the same footsteps
MysticSlayer said:
Xenoblade Chronicles has a couple main antagonists over the course of the story. I don't think either of them had the, "The world is so awful!" speech:
I really enjoyed the game but I couldn't really follow the story in that game. The the ending scene jumping into some spacelab just confused me even more and... GGGGHHHHAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
But yeah, very good game and interesting characters
Dude, no offense, but do you talk about anything else? Maybe it's just because not many people talk about eroge here and so it makes it stand out when you do, but any time I see you commenting on anything RPG/VN/gaming related, somehow it always involves MGQ. Not that it's not a good example here, but still...
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As for non-emo villains, I have nothing to say. I have seen people completely certain that 90% of the already mentioned villains were "obviously totally emo", and I honestly don't even know what "emo" is at this point.
What I would like to recommend instead is to rephrase the OP and the title: Instead of "emo" villains, why don't we look for villains who weren't omnicidal maniacs, who didn't want to destroy the world for whatever reason and instead had different goals from "blowing everything up" or even "conquering everything for no reason"? I think compiling such characters would be a fair bit harder and arguably more useful for people looking for unusual villains.
For example,
Adachi from Persona 4. He doesn't want to kill everyone, he is just a regular, if slightly unhinged bloke who got power without him noticing and accidentally killed a person, which then unhinged him even more and turned him into a two-faced maniac who was playing with the protagonist and co. just for the heck of it. Aside of the TV announcer he doesn't kill anyone and he doesn't want to destroy the world, he is just desperate and fairly nihilistic (which might just be the result of cracking under pressure).
Then there is Izanami on top of that. She doesn't want to destroy the world (or even the town), she just wants to grant humanity their "ultimate wish" like the god she is supposed to be, but she is so out of touch with humanity that she takes the worst approach possible which, by all intents and purposes, would have destroyed the world as we knew it if she managed to pull it off.
Oh I would talk about something else if I was given the opportunity, but the forums these days have given me little to work with and unluckily enough my only response I can give to those threads is MGQ related. Also if I keep banging on about how something is good, eventually at least one person who keeps reading the posts will break down and check it out themselves. Also it's taken me a while to notice but now that i'm thinking about it, I think Illias is one of my new favourite villains/antagonists. Must be the cool wings...
[sub][sub]Definitely not the hilarious Evaluation Meetings. Nope.[/sub][/sub]
You think this is bad you should have seen me ages ago when Persona 4 wasn't being milked to death by Atlus and was just a cool little niche PS2 game with not even an anime adaptation to its name. Any thread I could get remotely away with would be blatant Persona 4 advertising and I posted on almost every thread on the discussion board back in those days. You know, the days before all the isms started to spread around the entire internet and the gaming board actually discussed games? Good times. Good fucking times.
Isn't Persona 4 the exact thing the OP is talking about though? Adachi's speech before you fight him feels exactly what the OP was talking about. I mean P4 WAS my first go to response but it didn't fit for me personally and the only other JRPGs i've finished are Persona 3 and Fire Emblem: Awakening. Let's be real, Awakening wouldn't fit here either. The level of friendship power is crazy high.
A-yup, thank-ee kindly. Well, me from about five years ago, anyway. There was a big hubbub about internet anonymity and real names, and I was annoyed because my real name is common and therefore anonymous (e.g. if you google it you will find a lot of people, none of whom are me), while my nick is a reasonably good way to find me. So I slapped my picture on most of my Avatars and have left it there ever since.
Of the three main antagonists: One is being duped. He thinks the plan will create a utopia, doesn't realize it'll destroy the world first. The other is doing it because it was that world's creator god's plan, but he's also being brainwashed/possessed. And the third wants to usurp the creator god... I kinda forget if he wants to go through with the plan to destroy the world, or if he just wanted to be god for a power trip, or both.
But then they're still beaten with the power of friendship. Which I actually don't mind. I've always loved the focus on friendship and teamwork in some forms of Japanese media.
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