Trilligan said:
Seriously, though, while someone who has consented reluctantly is not akin to someone who has been raped, the situation is creepy enough that it should be a massive warning flag. We should not be seeking justifications for begging or pleading or other forms of emotional manipulation in sex. We should not think it is acceptable to pressure someone to have sex against their will.
No, it is not rape. But it is still vile. And you should not be disgusted at the comparison. You should consider these behaviors reprehensible. No one should ever be subjected to such emotional bombardment that they feel they should get in that creepy stranger's car against their wishes and their better judgement. People should know that it's not okay to badger someone into going to the park when the other person would rather just stay at home because it's cold and damp outside and the park is dingy and full of litter and diseased hobos.
Okay, so I want to set something straight just in case it's being assumed. I'm by no stretch saying that the person having trying to have sex with someone who doesn't want it is in the right. All I'm saying is that if someone doesn't want to have sex they should still have the responsibility of communicating that fact. I know some people with very commanding personalities, who often without even intending it have made several girls let them put themselves in positions that they didn't feel comfortable in. The guys I'm referring to have NO idea that the people they were with were uncomfortable (I've just heard both of their sides separately and they're very different). I'm not saying they shouldn't know that, but all I can really blame them for is being too self-centered to actually see what effect they're having. One of the women told me she feels bad about the situation, not because of what she did, but because she did it when she didn't want to.
I feel like that anecdote rambled on a bit. But what I was trying to say with it is that scumbag or not, some people just aren't aware of what they're doing, and a simple 'no' would do plenty of good in getting that message across.
Trilligan said:
There is something very disturbing about the train of thought behind these questions.
Consent does not exist in a very gray area. When two people consent to sexual activity they both give pretty clear signs. And it seems just as clear that ANY indication of doubt or reluctance - or, hell, any vague impression at all that one party had even had second thoughts - would be grounds enough to stop all sexual activity immediately.
It is skeevy and creepy that this is even a question, because this is the basis for the argument that victims are guilty of their victimization because they did not resist hard enough, and that the assailant is somehow absolved of responsibility. Which is not to say that I blame anyone here for raising the question - it is no fault of yours, but rather the pervasiveness of certain detrimental attitudes within our culture (the same attitudes that give internet anons the gall to treat this topic with annoyance simply because it happens to be a talking point this week, btw); but that is a much broader topic, and not to the point.
There's a difference between blaming a victim for something bad happening to them, and saying that they should be trying to take measures to prevent it. What I am asking is why people don't. Provided you're not mute, or incapable of responding coherently, saying no is something that just about anyone is able to do. A decent amount of people actually don't pick up cues of when their attention is unwanted. While you could argue they should, I have difficulty feeling too much sympathy for someone who won't resist enough to make sure they've communicated that they don't want to do it. If you drop some money on the street, and someone sees it and picks it up before you, but you don't decide to mention the fact it's yours, I wouldn't accuse them of stealing it from you. This is a whole different matter than blaming someone for dressing in revealing clothing for provoking rape. This is a situation where someone doesn't necessarily know what they're doing is unwanted. Personally, I couldn't imagine having sex with someone who I didn't know well enough to read cues like that, but I'm not talking specifically about myself.
Which is, put simply, that while certain personal responsibility does exist for both parties, that never makes it okay for one party to continue in the face of even the most infinitesimal modicum of doubt from the other party. The existence of personal responsibility at any point in the victim's past does not make that victim magically un-victimized, nor does it in any way vindicate a sexual aggressor. And to the argument that "the [first party] isn't threatening the [second party] with anything, and that the [first party] isn't aware that [the second party] doesn't want to" - that because an unwilling partner isn't vocal enough in their resistance, they are somehow incapable of being victimized - it is at best horribly misguided and at worst a smoke-screen justification of rape by intimidation rather than physical force.
It's pretty twisted if you do that, especially if intentionally, and unfortunately that can occur in many different facets of life, not just sex. However, I didn't say anything about them not being vocal enough, I merely said vocal. Inability to read body-language aside, if you say no, you have communicated as clearly as you should need to with anyone to let them know that whatever they want to do is unwanted. One big problem with that is if someone can make not object with intimidation, it's probably not a stretch to say that there are cases where people have given consent with intimidation as well. In which case you get a "Just because she is saying yes, doesn't mean she's saying yes" situation which frankly, I don't even know how you deal with.
Furthermore, I cannot even imagine the mindscape of someone who engages in sex while so detached from their partner that they can't even tell if they're unwilling or not. Even if your partner never made a sound, there are plenty of physical and behavioral clues to give a clear indication one way or the other; all it takes to notice is a bit of empathy.
As I said above, I can't say I can either. However that's the word of a stranger on the internet, so take that how you will.
EDIT: Also, welcome to the Escapist. Amongst all of the gender politics threads I assure you that there is the rare gaming thread to be found.
