"Just go watch Porn!" (Probably NFSW, duh)

[IceForce]

These seem to be the same people who feel quite comfortable raining insults like confetti when the targets are more to their choosing.

Yeah... MovieBob had a nifty little saying regarding that. Something about tactics and targets and some such...

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Well...

It all boils down to preferences.

Some people like X. Some people like Y.

Some people dislike X. Some people dislike Y.

Some people who like Y/X don't like that some people like X/Y.

Some people then take their dislike, scrunch it down into a ball of anger, bitterness, resentment, and general asshattery, then vomit out their innermost hatreds and insecurities through their keyboards, directly into the faces of people who had the grave misfortune of having an affinity for X/Y.

Some people are just dicks.

Spoiler: Also, this.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Sex and sexualization outside of porn seems to get a lot of undue negativity for reasons that seem to apply just as much to things without sex but aren't accuses of ruining or holding back the industry.

Is anyone making that argument in this thread?

If you are more often than not on the side that thinks something sexual is silly, stupid, wrong, problematic, harmful, or just happy if it gets taken away, you may not be as sex positive as you think you are.

I think a lot of people aren't as tolerant as they think they are. From my perspective, they tend to stand out as the people hurling blanket pejoratives at armies of imaginary enemies, or making poisoned well statements implying that anyone who disagrees with them on particular issues is somehow wanting...whether they are described as puritans, or zealots, or whatever the label du jour is.

I keep reading posts from people who I am to understand are hyper sensitive to insults or even perceived insults, to the point where they accepted that "potential criticism" was sufficient reason to not regionally release a game. So much so they found it far, far more convincing than the fact the game never sold well to begin with. These seem to be the same people who feel quite comfortable raining insults like confetti when the targets are more to their liking. Now, pointing out incidences of hypocrisy in these debates is becoming really tiresome, it's like pointing out fish in the ocean, but I'm genuinely confused what message I'm supposed to be taking away from all this. The message I keep getting is "nothing is sacred, except for titty games, and the people who like them".

People are welcome to their creeds, I guess, that's just a particularly confusing one, from my POV.

In fairness, the same goes to the other side. Can't criticize the critic criticizing the games, and gmaers have to quit being angry about being called sexists, virgin loser neckbeards, and terrorists, but "SJW nonsense" is enough to swarm an online store with empty threats and anger.

Honestly, what I'm taking away from the DOAX3 debacle is that the efforts to make gaming more inclusive have had the opposite effect, making them even more angry, protective, and hostile to outsiders, and right now, created a market for products that piss off "SJWs". Then again, I've been saying that for a couple of years now. Try to be part of the group, then insult and be indifferent to the feelings of the people in it first, and yeah, you're going to make enemies, not friends.

 

[Deathmageddon]

And I have to wonder...are people really so blind? That maybe its the fact that its not actually porn that makes people like it?

Hit the nail on the head right there. I thought everyone over 13 knew that it's about achieving balance between what's seen and not seen. That's why lingerie is a thing.

That, and it seems to ignore personal preference too; maybe someone doesn't like actual sex that much but just likes attractive women?

That also describes me perfectly. I won't even watch an anime if it's based on an eroge. Hard to enjoy UFOTable's animation knowing parts of Fate's source material were included with the sole, cynical purpose of making the player c**.

 

[Something Amyss]

Secondly, the "minor inconvenience" in buying DOAX3 or other import games is an extra 20 - 30 dollars plus shipping and no access to any DLC (for which DOAX3 will be full of).

ie what literally any other person importing a niche game has to deal with.

As for the main course: remember the context of the thread: being asked why we don't watch porn instead of liking titillation in video games and other media. You don't often hear: why don't you go to a gun range instead of playing Call of Duty, or why don't you go play whatever sport the game you're playing is about.

Actually, those are kind of common arguments. People have also been told to join the military instead of play COD, learn a real instrument instead of play Guitar Hero/Rock Band (hilarious to me because I play guitar and piano), or go join a racing club instead of playing Need For Speed. I've also seen "start your own illegal race circuit," but I think it was intended to be funny. These are pretty common things, all told, and "just watch porn" doesn't seem to be particularly outstanding except for how people decided to react to it.

It does kind of beg the question why? Why should Quiet be seen as weird, and more out of place than Hewey's giant metal Sayter legs, or the guy in MGS3 covered in hornets? Why look at a game to look at half naked girls as sillier than a game like Dear Ester where you look at the scenery, or something heavy in cinematics?

I'm confused. Which of those are porn? Because this is supposed to somehow be related to the topic at hand, right?

Sex and sexualization outside of porn seems to get a lot of undue negativity for reasons that seem to apply just as much to things without sex but aren't accuses of ruining or holding back the industry.

The overall response here seems to be "stop pretending it's not porn, we don't care what you spank to" rather than "this is ruining or holding back the industry." Who, exactly, are these people who are being so negative to sex and sexuality?

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

The overall response here seems to be "stop pretending it's not porn, we don't care what you spank to" rather than "this is ruining or holding back the industry."

This is an attitude I can understand more than anything. I personally have no shame in admitting that I sometimes enjoy the over-the-top stylized basically-fap-material. I've no issue with it being in games myself, and only have one lingering request that developers stop trying to rationalize it and call a spade a spade, or in this case call it fanservice/fap material, so long as its honest. *shrug*

I dunno what that adds to the discussion, but I just had to point out that I am quite happy that there are more people being rational about the idea of it not being a problem other than dishonest intentions/rationalizations.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

Wait what? This might be one of the strangest things I have ever seen someone claim. How in the world does the existence of softcore porn invalidate the reason for DOAX to exist? You might as well say Super Mario Bros invalidates the existence of Mega Man.

I mean, DOAX is really quite unique. There isn't anything else like it out there.

 

[Callate]

It's more than a little weird to me in general that so many people seem to want everything sexual in media to be ghettoized into the pornography category.

Why is it a presumption that "pornography" indicates a ghetto category? Certainly there is problematic pornography, but it's an extremely generalized label that covers an extremely wide range of erotic material. It's not a default snarl word. There's an entire thread of people here shrugging at pornography and saying they have no problem with it, and yet we still have people chiming in to share their distress at the designation. It's baffling.

"Ghettoized" in its original sense does not imply a negative, only a segregation. The occupants of a ghetto may be worse off for being so segregated- and I'd argue that the broad spectrum of the erotic is also made poorer if it's restricted to only what exists for erotic purposes, and almost exclusively those purposes- but that doesn't mean the occupants were inherently bad for being put there. A Greek sculpture or a Botticelli painting might be seen as erotic by some, but placing them next to Debbie Does Dallas or some piece of camcorder-recorded anything-goes amateur gonzo video does not encourage viewers to contemplate them as anything else.

 

[sumanoskae]

It's nobody's business what gets you off. I'm still going to recommend that you YouTube that shit, and save yourself 60 bucks. The argument I would level against DOAX is not directed at it's content, but it's chosen medium. There is no reason to be charging people full price for what amounts to a virtual strip tease.

 

[JamesStone]

The responses are attacking him.

Nah, not really. Only someone with remarkably thin skin would deem these responses as personal attacks.

OP literally describes (IRL) porn as "incredibly fake, and most of the time people aren't actually enjoying themselves". If the OP scoured the internet for porn and came to the above conclusion, then the OP is both objectively wrong and also he didn't look very hard.

Pointing this out is not a personal attack on him.

Is it? That's the view he gets from looking at porn and you're saying he's wrong about his tastes. It is a ton of posts just saying the OP's opinion is wrong, he doesn't know what he's talking about, he has emotional problems, etc. Very few people are actually addressing his argument (which is "why is he told to "just go watch porn" when this is what he wants" in case anyone forgot).

So what? An opinion can be wrong, and many are. I'm honestly flabbergastered every time I hear this argument. It's like when someone tries to justify a crappy play/book/whatever entire class of entertainment the pseudo-intellectuals cluster around by saying "It's a metaphor!". So what? There is such a thing as a shitty metaphor, and there is such a thing as a shitty, wrong opinion.

That is not at all true. There are opinions you don't agree with. There are opinions that not many people agree with. There are poorly researched opinions. But there is no such thing as a wrong opinion.

"All niggers/chinks/[whatever the slang for jew is]/retarded/non-aryan people are the scum of the Earth and deserve nothing but painful execution".


Feel free to invoke Godwin's law. There is such a thing as a wrong opinion, and I'm starting to believe that bullshit about PCness gone wrong or whatever if we truly reached an age where every opinion is supposed to be this precious little thing that can never be wrong. If you think the Earth was born 6000 years ago, that's all fine and dandy, it's your opinion, but your opinion is wrong, and being an opinion does absolutely nothing to prevent it from being wrong.

In the case of YEC's, it's a fact that can be disputed. They're just incorrectly using the word "opinion".

As to the first statement, that's an opinion that not many people agree with, but it is an opinion nonetheless. It can't be right or wrong, by definition.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment:
to ask for a second medical opinion.
4.
Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.:
to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6.
a favorable estimate; esteem:
I haven't much of an opinion of him.


Notice how absolutely nothing in the DEFINITION of opinion says it can't be right or wrong. It can, and many are. If you think the sky is blue, that's your opinion, and you're wrong and possibly sick.

Are we really at the dictionary point? Alright then, how do you prove an opinion wrong?

Case by case analysis. In my previous example, we prove the sky isn't red (said blue my mistake) by goddamned looking at it. We prove black people aren't inheritly inferior by scientific analysis.

And yes, when you're going around appropriating words and needlessly change their meaning just to fit an agenda/argument, we get to the dictionary point.

So you prove facts. What about opinions?

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty

An opinion is an unconfirmed belief that we hold as true. If it's confirmed true, and as such proven as a fact, it's right. If it's proven false, then it's wrong. It's as simple as that.

Many opinions can't be confirmed as right or wrong because they are formed about very complex and deep topics that require major discussion and are always shifting based on society's values, like, let's say, the rights of the trangesder.

Opinions on completely frivolous topics such as the OP's are not subjected to such ambiguity. Saying that real life porn looks incredibly fake yet clamoring and defending the substitute offered by DOAX is a wrong opinion, and pointing out his belief has a major hole in it does not constitute a personal attack in any way, shape or form, unless it's taylor-made to be so.

So what's your proof?

You are quite the master at extending a pointless argument for the sake of nothing but petty bickering, aren't you?

You're the one that started arguing with me.

The proof is obtained by measuring levels of reality. It is hard to take someone who claims real-life porn looks "fake" yet finds solace in drawn/animated porn, which is several levels more detached from reality than real-life porn. Which is not to say his opinion that porn looks fake to be wrong, that's just personal taste, but to claim that it looks fake when compared to animated porn/ecchi it is wrong and preposterous. It's also a good sign of a wrong opinion when someone's defending the integrity of a product who's own productors already admitted it to be nonexistant. Look no further than DOA2's (I think) "she kicks high" commercial.

So the staged sex devoid of all context between professionals with no attachment objectively feels more real than the animated dating sim?

On the account of actually being real, yes, yes it does.

Those screen images are no more real than any other screen image. The sounds are made the same way. OP feels more from ecchi than from contextless porn. He's not right or wrong in thinking this.

What he feels is not right or wrong. Claiming that ecchi/hentai is more real than porn is ridiculous and wrong. And yes, these screen images are more real than screen images of things that don't actually exist, and it is idiotic to the highest degree to try and say otherwise. Do you feel the same about a picture of Owen and Beru's carbonized skeletons than you feel about the result of a civilian shot to death in Syria?

And yet again it comes down to objective facts. An opinion can be wrong because it is nothing more than a belief that can be or not supported by facts. No matter how you try to change the definition to fit the argument, that is the simplificated definition of opinion by commom consensus, so unless you want to form your own language and give your own meaning to words, by, again, DEFINITION an opinion can be right or wrong, and the opinion that porn is more fake than ecchi is wrong.

If OP feels more strongly about ecchi than he feels for real-life porn that's fine and dandy and I respect his feelings, but that doesn't change reality. I can claim all I want that Evil Dead's writing rivals Shakespeare, or that the sky is red, or even that lions are strictly herbivores. Those would be my opinions, and I'd be completely and utterly wrong.

Too bad the OP never claimed that objectively ecchi is more real than regular porn.

The real seems fake because its set-up, while the fake seems more real because its less staged and fun.

I've seen porn. But I don't really like it. I feel its incredibly fake

If he had, you might have had a point. But again, an opinion can not be right or wrong, no matter how you want to read it that way.

Which is why I repeteadly said "if". Because I'm not arguing against the OP, I'm arguing against your notion that opinions can't be wrong, which is a stupid discussion because it's essentially you vs the formal definition of the word, but then again let's not let such things as facts and reality dissuade our arguments.

And again, one can still call upon the inherit absurdity of constrasting the fakeness of live-action porn with Dead and goddamned Alive Extreme without it being a personal attack.
Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

Any one softcore porn would then invalidate other softcore porn existing. This is not the point. OP wants DoA and just telling him his opinion is invalid is not a valid response.

And opinions are unfalsifiable. If they are falsifiable, they're not opinions.

But again, an opinion can not be right or wrong, no matter how you want to read it that way.

I really don't know where you're getting this idea from.

Reality.

I'm curious, would you say Hitler's opinions on the Jews were wrong?

Or for something a bit more close to home, if someone claimed it was their opinion that Gamergate was a harassment campaign, then you'd say it's impossible for them to be wrong?

I'd say they were misguided and with his power destructive. But not wrong.

I'm trying to think if that's a falsifiable statement. I suppose there would have to be a definition for a harassment campaign. But let's do us both a favor and not turn this into a GG discussion.

It's funny you claim your idea is backed by realitiy when popular opinion, the dictionary, and basic logic stand against you. Also, no one's turning this into a GG discussion, it's a very very simple question. Someone claims GG is a harrassment campaign and nothing else. Literally nothing else. Yeah, that's a good example.


I hereby decry that it is my opinion that Gamergate are nothing but powerless thugs that like to harrass women but are too cowardly to do it face to face in fear said women might fight back.


I can't be wrong, you see. It's my opinion. I can't be right, true, but I can also not be wrong (which makes me, what? A banana?).

 

[JamesStone]

Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

Wait what? This might be one of the strangest things I have ever seen someone claim. How in the world does the existence of softcore porn invalidate the reason for DOAX to exist? You might as well say Super Mario Bros invalidates the existence of Mega Man.

I mean, DOAX is really quite unique. There isn't anything else like it out there.

From my perspective, whatever DOAX can offer, softcore porn can offer in a much better state, and without the excuse of volleyball to hide behind (which ain't really an excuse by now and just a paper-thin disguise even the marketing department mocks).

I've got nothing against anyone who enjoys DOAX, it's probably someone's very particular cup of tea, I'm just saying that for what you're after when you go for DOAX, there's almost certainly a cheaper and better alternative, for volleyball games, very softcore porn or even a mixture of both.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Plus, "just go watch porn" still remains a perfectly reasonable counterpoint, because softcore porn still exists, which in turn completely invalidades DOAX's entire reason to exist.

Wait what? This might be one of the strangest things I have ever seen someone claim. How in the world does the existence of softcore porn invalidate the reason for DOAX to exist? You might as well say Super Mario Bros invalidates the existence of Mega Man.

I mean, DOAX is really quite unique. There isn't anything else like it out there.

From my perspective, whatever DOAX can offer, softcore porn can offer in a much better state, and without the excuse of volleyball to hide behind (which ain't really an excuse by now and just a paper-thin disguise even the marketing department mocks).

I've got nothing against anyone who enjoys DOAX, it's probably someone's very particular cup of tea, I'm just saying that for what you're after when you go for DOAX, there's almost certainly a cheaper and better alternative, for volleyball games, very softcore porn or even a mixture of both.

You got two out of three, but it is the one you missed that is the most unique thing about DOAX. DOAX is a dress up game. Choose your doll, choose the clothes, choose the accessories, and watch the doll be pretty in a variety of situations. People love to play dress up, and DOAX is the highest quality dress up game on the market. It has the highest quality models and the highest quality clothes and accessories.

And this is why the volley ball and all the other stupid minigames and little animation videos are so important to the game. Once you have dressed up the doll you want to see the doll in the cute outfit you put together in some sort of context.

I am 100% totally serious. It is almost worth buying the game for just that. If the dress up aspect were expanded it would be easily worth a purchase. Give it more items of clothing, a greater range of types of clothing (beautiful dresses for preference), a bunch more accessories (especially shoes and the ability to do something with their hair), and a lot more variety in the little movies you get to watch of the dolls, and make it a bit less porny in the camera angles and at least give us an option to reduce the boob jiggle and it would be practically a must buy for people like me.

The second best dress up game on the market right now is the Soul Calibur series, but since the focus of the game is not on the pretty dolls and pretty clothes it is lacking in many ways.

MMO's are often decent for this, but the incredible amount of effort you have to go to to get cute clothes and accessories is staggering, and the games do not well support seeing your doll in the cute outfits you put together.

DOAX is one of very, very few games out there that just gives you a selection of barbies and a pile of cute things to dress them in, and it is the only one that has any real quality to it. It isn't good enough to buy for the dress up aspect alone, but if you are also into the porny aspects it is a quality purchase.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

In fairness, the same goes to the other side.

The "other side" eh? Are we delineated into two armed camps then?

Honestly, what I'm taking away from the DOAX3 debacle is that the efforts to make gaming more inclusive have had the opposite effect, making them even more angry, protective, and hostile to outsiders, and right now, created a market for products that piss off "SJWs".

Gee I dunno Redd. I've been gaming since about 1980, and I'm white, straight, and I have a penis, and none of this made me "angry, protective and hostile". Watching the self-designated gate-keepers of the hobby throw diaper baby tantrums every single time someone criticizes some element of the hobby for being socially regressive makes me annoyed and embarrassed, but that's about as far as it goes.

Then again, I've been saying that for a couple of years now. Try to be part of the group, then insult and be indifferent to the feelings of the people in it first, and yeah, you're going to make enemies, not friends.

That's funny, because I insulted gamers for decades, and no one took any issue with it. I also received insults on the regular while gaming online, something I am to understand is part and parcel of the hobby. I also see insults being hurled around here, entirely from one "side", directed at another "side" that for all intents and purposes seems to be continually absent from these discussions. Indeed, the only time I ever see that "side" in action is when someone posts shit they data-mined from the internet, and 90% of the time it turns out to be a ridiculously obvious Poe.

So in light of this, why were "insults" some kind of Rubicon that demanded a hobby of media consumption be turned into the front line of a culture war? Are "gamers" as you are defining them just exceptionally thin skinned, and swift to take offense? That seems contrary to how they present themselves. If someone says "Fuk u die ******" every three seconds during an online match, I'm to understand it's part of the charm of the hobby, but if someone says "this ambulatory pair of tits is a good example of objectification in the medium" it's nuclear war time?

Don't worry, I'm not under the impression I'm convincing you of anything. I'm well aware of where "battle lines" have been drawn, and if I've learned anything it's that those who have chosen to encamp are not particularly interested in budging. But as long as we're "sharing theories" I'm sure you'll be comfortable with me sharing mine. How was it someone put it a few days ago...that gaming was "under attack" because some people "got their fee fees hurt". I consistently see one group of people talking very loudly and very intently about how hurt their "fee fees" are when it comes to these subjects. Pro tip: it's not sinister progressives from the land of Tumblr.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

A Greek sculpture or a Botticelli painting might be seen as erotic by some, but placing them next to Debbie Does Dallas or some piece of camcorder-recorded anything-goes amateur gonzo video does not encourage viewers to contemplate them as anything else.

A fair point, and I'm not averse to more precision in language (indeed I'm a proponent for it). I don't have an issue with delineations like "erotica" or "ecchi" (or however it's spelled, I'm too lazy to look), or any other distinctions. By the same token, I'm also not averse to people colloquially applying "pornography" to material that was very evidently developed with that at least partly in mind. I've seen some cranking in the thread about people fishing out dictionary definitions, but that's part of the problem with these discussions, is you've got thirty-two people working with thirty-two definitions of a word. It does not lead to clarity of understanding. OP opens the thread incensed because people called his titty game porn, without any real understanding of what those individuals might have been thinking of when they applied that label.

I also find it bizarre that it's the "critics of the game are sex-negative puritans" crowd who keep insisting "porn" is an inherently loathsome designation (I'm not including you in that, by the way). I find this to be a confusing assertion, particularly given the average age and gender of this forum. I'd anticipate an overwhelmingly "porn friendly" if not "porn enthusiastic" attitude. And yet it's being treated like a default insult. Possibly in part because such people are swift to find insults everywhere, but I digress.

I mean for heavens sake this is a culture and a generation that appends "porn" to random things to make them sound desirable. Earth porn. Food porn. Ear porn.

"Your game looks a bit porny."
"HOW DARE YOU."

Like I said, I'm confused.

 

[Something Amyss]

This is an attitude I can understand more than anything. I personally have no shame in admitting that I sometimes enjoy the over-the-top stylized basically-fap-material. I've no issue with it being in games myself, and only have one lingering request that developers stop trying to rationalize it and call a spade a spade, or in this case call it fanservice/fap material, so long as its honest. *shrug*

I dunno what that adds to the discussion, but I just had to point out that I am quite happy that there are more people being rational about the idea of it not being a problem other than dishonest intentions/rationalizations.

Hell, I write erotica. I like looking at attractive women (and men, and sometimes aliens). I watch porn. I also generally don't give a crap what other people get off on. That doesn't mean I'm not going to think it's porn. Hell, I posed the intro a couple pages back, it's more pornographic than a lot of softcore porn in my opinion. For his, I am apparently a puritanical sex-negative SJW who's out to censor all sex.

In fact, that's what I would add to this discussion that I didn't think of last night: sex and sexuality. I was replying to someone who claimed that people try and lump all sex and sexuality into the porn category. That's true, but only from a very limited perspective.

We do tend to lump together sex and sexuality in the sense of things like Quiet or DOA Xtreme, because they're basically there as fap material, and it seems everyone knows it. Even the OP has said he doesn't like porn with real girls because of reasons I won't unpack, and parallels looking at this stuff to porn as he complains he's being told to just watch porn. But I mean, I've been having conversations about sex and sexuality on this site for something like 8 years. And a lot of the people who suddenly think I'm a prude or a puritan were the folks who were all "STFU SJWs" not too long ago. Outside of pure titillation, we don't actually get much discourse on sex and sexuality, because "STFU SJWs." Sex happens in a lot of games without this kind of fanfare (which I will touch on in a moment), and sexuality?

Well, the only type of sexuality that seems to count is the kind where I want to bone this hot polygonal chick. But bring up any other element of sexuality? It can't be talked about without at the very least a shouting match, and how quickly do the cries of "puritan" become something else.

And yeah, the fanfare didn't even come from the "SJWs" here. People got outraged when they found out a game that already wasn't coming to the West still wasn't coming to the West. The only difference? They couldn't have it before, but now they can't have it "because SJWs." And suddenly, this is a big deal and everyone should care. People who will demand someone be fired for speaking their opinion in an editorial piece are suddenly very, very against censorship.

One group on the internet is offended and displaying its outrage, and it's not the SJWs. The SJWs appear to be the ones who simply don't get why it's such a big deal. The "dude, just watch porn" thing. It seems like most people simply don't care if a titty game comes stateside. And the big controversy here is that we would dare call it one.

Which brings me to....

It's nobody's business what gets you off.

I would point out that this is literally only an issue because people are talking about it in the first place. This isn't "whatever happens in your own bedroom/living room/dungeon," it's people who have been outraged that they can't have their game (without importing it, because it's not being outlawed or anything). They have made this a fairly "public" discussion and very much made it relevant. OP has even made multiple threads specifically discussing what "gets him off," and not just on this subject.

People are going to give their opinions. Especially on a board like this, which mandates discussion value as part of its content rules.

Ostensibly, it's nobody's business if I don't like bacon. But if I start to post about my dislike of bacon and people post in response, it would be a bti absurd for me to say "it's none of your business what I like!"

I would obviously draw the line at someone being called names specifically for not liking bacon, or the usual line of stuff. But that's not what's happening, either.

"Ghettoized" in its original sense does not imply a negative, only a segregation. The occupants of a ghetto may be worse off for being so segregated- and I'd argue that the broad spectrum of the erotic is also made poorer if it's restricted to only what exists for erotic purposes, and almost exclusively those purposes- but that doesn't mean the occupants were inherently bad for being put there. A Greek sculpture or a Botticelli painting might be seen as erotic by some, but placing them next to Debbie Does Dallas or some piece of camcorder-recorded anything-goes amateur gonzo video does not encourage viewers to contemplate them as anything else.

And if we were talking about something where the sex was incidental, I'd agree. But this shit is marketed specifically in a way to emphasise it as a focus. Hell, it's not even the Xtreme line.

Spoiler: Erring on the SNFW side

Anything might get someone off (and probably does), but not everything is marketed to that end. If Michaelangelo's David had been mass marketed as "David lets it ALL HANG OUT!!!!!!" we might have slightly different conversations about it.

EDIT: and on the flip side, if someone said "I enjoy Debbie Does Dallas for the nuanced characters and deep cinematography...why else would I watch it?" I doubt anyone would believe them.

 

[Areloch]

I also find it bizarre that it's the "critics of the game are sex-negative puritans" crowd who keep insisting "porn" is an inherently loathsome designation (I'm not including you in that, by the way). I find this to be a confusing assertion, particularly given the average age and gender of this forum. I'd anticipate an overwhelmingly "porn friendly" if not "porn enthusiastic" attitude. And yet it's being treated like a default insult. Possibly in part because such people are swift to find insults everywhere, but I digress.

I mean for heavens sake this is a culture and a generation that appends "porn" to random things to make them sound desirable. Earth porn. Food porn. Ear porn.

"Your game looks a bit porny."
"HOW DARE YOU."

Like I said, I'm confused.

I dunno about all the rest of the discussion happening in this thread, but the "Just go watch porn" statement, someone saying more or less "You shouldn't enjoy that piece of media like that because it's a little too close to porn but not fully porn' does come across as weirdly...I dunno, "sex negative" probably isn't it, but it seems like a demand to keep "sexy" and "not sexy" separate.

It's just a weird phrase all around, really.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I dunno about all the rest of the discussion happening in this thread, but the "Just go watch porn" statement, someone saying more or less "You shouldn't enjoy that piece of media like that because it's a little too close to porn but not fully porn' does come across as weirdly...I dunno, "sex negative" probably isn't it, but it seems like a demand to keep "sexy" and "not sexy" separate.

It's just a weird phrase all around, really.

I think it's just questioning the value of the game.

When I was quite young there was a game lurking on the PC, "Strip Poker". You could play Poker and get hilariously pixelated nudie girls if you won enough. Terribly erotic and enticing for me, I was probably 13 at the time. And we didn't even HAVE the goddam internet, it didn't exist yet.

If someone offered me that same game today, I'd probably think "Why wouldn't I just go look at porn?". And I'm guessing the people who don't find anime girls jiggling around while playing volleyball enticing are thinking the same thing. It's not really a debate that anyone is in it for the fucking volleyball.

And people looking at an aspect of a game and seeing no value in it, and subsequently shit talking said game, is not a new phenomenon. We do it all the time. It usually doesn't merit a five page thread. I'm not sure why it's surprising, alarming, or insulting that someone could look at DOAX and think "Meh, why not just watch porn?".

 

[Something Amyss]

It usually doesn't merit a five page thread.

Or the other several that were made here alone that went multiple pages. I would think this would validate the confusion surrounding this game.

 

[Areloch]

I dunno about all the rest of the discussion happening in this thread, but the "Just go watch porn" statement, someone saying more or less "You shouldn't enjoy that piece of media like that because it's a little too close to porn but not fully porn' does come across as weirdly...I dunno, "sex negative" probably isn't it, but it seems like a demand to keep "sexy" and "not sexy" separate.

It's just a weird phrase all around, really.

I think it's just questioning the value of the game.

When I was quite young there was a game lurking on the PC, "Strip Poker". You could play Poker and get hilariously pixelated nudie girls if you won enough. Terribly erotic and enticing for me, I was probably 13 at the time. And we didn't even HAVE the goddam internet, it didn't exist yet.

If someone offered me that same game today, I'd probably think "Why wouldn't I just go look at porn?". And I'm guessing the people who don't find anime girls jiggling around while playing volleyball enticing are thinking the same thing. It's not really a debate that anyone is in it for the fucking volleyball.

And people looking at an aspect of a game and seeing no value in it, and subsequently shit talking said game, is not a new phenomenon. We do it all the time. It usually doesn't merit a five page thread. I'm not sure why it's surprising, alarming, or insulting that someone could look at DOAX and think "Meh, why not just watch porn?".

I suppose that's true. That said, I haven't played it, but of what I've heard from others playing it, it's actually got several interesting gameplay mechanics and minigames than just simply being about "dem tittays". I mean, for your Strip Poker game example, if someone pulled the "Why not just watch porn", you may be slightly more inclined to go "well, sure, but..." if it happened to actually have a really good poker game behind the veneer of erotica, right?

I mean, I know if someone pulled the "Why not go watch porn" on something like Bayonetta, I'd definitely counterpoint about how the gameplay is actually really fun and the sexy poses are just an amusing varnish on top. If anything it's a tad odd that people refuse to acknowledge that there's a chance that DOAX is actually a game and has mechanics people may enjoy rather than simply being some weird theoretical softcore porn simulator.

I can't say it's *surprising* that people go "I don't see why this is a thing", because lord knows most people seem to adopt the "stop liking what I don't like" angle, but it is disappointing.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

If anything it's a tad odd that people refuse to acknowledge that there's a chance that DOAX is actually a game and has mechanics people may enjoy rather than simply being some weird theoretical softcore porn simulator.

Even the game's own developers don't seem to put much stock in it as a volleyball game. And none of the games fans are spending time detailing its sporting mechanics. One person did spend some time defending its merits as a virtual doll-house (albeit a very evidently porny one), so it's got that going for it?

If that's the case, then they might be missing a trick marketing it only to "red blooded" young males. It's not like virtual doll houses have show to have good sales potential or anything when opened to a wider market. =|