RazadaMk2 said:
I tried to back back out of this thread. It is usually a good idea when things get too heated, I do not particularly want to get banned.
Firstly, my use of the word objectify. I am using it as it is commonly used. Within this context I am stating that turning women into sex objects (As the art style does. It does not bring to mind "Epic Warrior", instead it makes one think of a cheap porno. I am not the only one who thinks this). As in, the women are not being treated as women, but as things a man would want to stick his penis into, first and foremost.
Secondly, my barbie facts? Just simple things one could find out if one was bored enough. On another note, her arms are ridiculously out of proportion and her neck is simply too long.
Thirdly, my notes on annorexia. These come from several sources: Studying psychology, Studying sociology and, primarily, dating several annorexics. Oh, and a bulimic. Now, I will state freely that one of the key causes of annorexia is a lack of control (Or the feeling that one lacks control) however, the current fixation on thin people within the west is also a contributing factor. Media depictions of beauty within the west are also contributing to this. As for my comments on the banning of size zero models? Well, this was primarily done because being that thin causes major health issues, including heart failure. However, it was also done due to the negative impact it was seen to be having on society: Stating that an unhealthy lifestyle was attractive.
And finally, because I believe all of the above neatly summarizes my opinion, the argument that this is art and they can do whatever they like? My answer? So what. They could have chosen to do whatever they like and they chose to make a race that dresses like strippers, they chose to promote their game with SFW pornography. They CHOSE this art style. And, as a human, with free will, I can CHOOSE to find this art style not to my taste and I can choose to find it abhorrent.
It does make me feel ill when I see things like this. Because this, this could be damaging. This is simply pandering to anyone with a penis "Play this game! We have boobs! Lots of boobs!" and I find it distasteful. I find it disgusting. I find the defence of this hyper sexualization, this sexism, I find it disgusting.
A woman can be depicted as attractive without being depicted as sexy. A woman can be depicted as feminine without being depicted as a sex object. Fuck it, a woman does not need to be attractive or feminie to be a woman.
And now, I quote someone who seems to be agreeing with me, on general terms at least:
Emiscary said:
I love how defensive people get when you point out needless hyper-sexualization in games. Mostly because I cannot imagine any context where you'd get the same kind of outrage at the *suggestion* that it should be curbed. Let's take say... "The Avengers". Now, if Joss Whedon had elected to dress Scarlett Johansson in a g-string & halter top and people complained about it, would you have marvel comic fans screaming:
"NO! NEVER! MEN ARE OBJECTIFIED SOMETIMES TO! RABBLE! ETC!" ?
If so mostly you'd just stare at them like they were a bunch of slack jawed idiots. Long story short: methinks the gamers doth protest too much. You don't *need* to have an erection at all times. And the fact that you insist that you do need one (or that there's some other more noble [and entirely fictitious reason] you wanna keep this shit in games...) implies some pretty sad things about you.
And I am done. Any issues you have with my opinions or use of language simply do not matter to me. I accept I will not change your mind. You think it is totally fine to depict women as little more than things to put your cock into, I think that it is wrong to do so. You love how women are depicted in games, I want games and gamers to grow the fuck up.
There was a fight for gender equality in textbooks at schools. I think its about time the same fight happened within games.
"Firstly, my use of the word objectify. I am using it as it is commonly used."
You are misusing it in a meaningless way that damages ability for us to discuss this issue. What do you ACTUALLY mean by "objectify" it clearly is not the dictionary definition? See I think you are just using it as a pejorative with no discussion value. "Pejorative", look that term up while you are looking up "objectify"
"I'm not the only one who thinks this"
Is no argument. Think about all the wrong and awful things that have been justified by "me and mah buddies think it's all right".
Your Barbie facts are mis-representative for your ignorance of how art works. It does NOT have to be in natural proportions, just because someone makes a doll, sculpture or painting of someone with long arms that doesn't mean the artist wants them to have weak and frail arms. Just as Pablo Picasso doesn't want women to have their faces smashed so their eyes are on the other side of their face.
"I have studied" is not a source. This is a source:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/pulmonary_disorders/tumors_of_the_lungs/lung_carcinoma.html?qt=&sc=&alt=
about link between smoking and lung cancer. Not related, but an example of what it means to give a source.
Facile logic to ban unhealthy depictions, as by that logic fat people should be banned from television and obesity is a FAR greater problem in the western world. Banning depiction of thin people this without any science to actually indicate that this is the major causative or contributory factor in anorexia is wrong. It's amateur psychologist speculation.
And May I just comment on your breathless insensitivity:
"only appeal to those with a penis"
Have you never heard of homosexuality? Gay men would have no interest in this and again, invisible lesbians, their agency and interest is totally ignored and marginalised. Typical heterosexist narcissism.
Sex =/= sexism
Sexism is denigrating based on gender. TERA game is very well balanced, the female of this race are not disadvantaged in any measure of combat prowess or ability to influence the narrative.
Again, abuse of the term "Sex object" as nothing but a contrived pejorative.
You aren't adding any discussion value here, you are throwing meaningless insults and shallow fallacious "observations".
Video games are comparatively FAR more tame in terms of sex than film. Where is the video game equivalent of Wild Things? A major feature film that included a THREESOME! Or American pie with full frontal female nudity?
"Any issues you have with my opinions or use of language simply do not matter to me."
That's blatant denialism. You don't even bother to think about what a negative effect you are having on this discussion.
"You think it is totally fine to depict women as little more than things to put your cock into"
That's a blatant straw-man attack, I do not hold that stance and you know this as I've never said I hold that stance. You have fabricated that stance out of no where only to denigrate me in an Ad Hominem attack.
Games already have gender equality, there is exactly the same capability to sexually admire men is games like TERA, what you are talking about is NOT equality, you want an arbitrary and unequal ban on female sexuality. The characters are equally capable in combat and gameplay in general across genders and species even.
It's very clear what you want, it's very clear what your prejudices are, and it's very clear you don't have any good reason for holding your stance, and ESPECIALLY NOT for why they should ever be imposed on anyone else against their free will, not morally, not legally, not in any way.
If you want to have an actual reasoned discussion rather than throw around fallacies, facile logic, pejoratives, slurs under a facade of denialism then I'd welcome that. But so far you don't seem to be willing to do that. Your personal prejudice (your apparent disgust) is no argument and cannot justify your fallacies.
