Just putting something out there about fallout 4 and protagonist voice acting.

[JohnZ117]

I have a question to those against the v.o. protagonist, is one of the reasons because you like to do self-insertion? I have no significant problem with that, but I prefer to see my self as the "director" and see the p.c. as a character in the story unto him/herself.

I have never once made a self insert character of myself. I find the notion that people do it kind of perplexing. I spend 90% of my life playing myself, I like to try someone else in my fantasy worlds.

However, most of my fun in games like Fallout, Skyrim, etc... is that I'm able to make my own character, and decide what they're like. And it bothers me when the game decides things about my character that is contrary to how I want them. I found Guild Wars 2 absolutely painful in this regard. I spent a good 30 minutes to an hour designing my character, choosing his background, etc... only to find that in the cutscenes my Sylvari presented himself like a posh and cocky aristocrat.

That's probably the worst example, but I've had it to varying extents with other games. When they give your character a voice, they're taking away some of the freedom you have in defining your character. The manner in which they speak, their accent, etc... is decided for you, and it's very easy for it to be at odds with the way you imagined your character.

I never asked if, nor assumed that, self-insertion was the Sole reason for opposition to Bethesda's decision. Nor do I believe it is a bad thing, just not for me. It may be a little narcissistic, however.

I didn't see my p.cs in Mass Effect 1-3, nor DA:2 or Inquisition as set in stone.

True, but I found I couldn't become immersed in those mostly already written characters as extensions of myself. It felt more like watching a film than creating my own experience. There is nothing specifically wrong with that, but it is not what I want from a Fallout game (or almost any other game).

Just how not written do you think voiceless p.c.s are? Do you ever get to be the guy that dedicated his life to reintroducing the bicycle to the Wasteland in Fallout 2? There are always going to be limitations on the characters in games. It's mainly a matter of practicality, and such limits can benefit the game and its players. And, having to play the only character without voice (unless there is a plot-justified reason) tends to break my immersion in the story of the game.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I never asked if, nor assumed that, self-insertion was the Sole reason for opposition to Bethesda's decision. Nor do I believe it is a bad thing, just not for me. It may be a little narcissistic, however.

I have a question to those against the v.o. protagonist, is one of the reasons because you like to do self-insertion? I have no significant problem with that, but I prefer to see my self as the "director" and see the p.c. as a character in the story unto him/herself.

I'm a little confused, I'm someone who's against the v.o. protagonist (ie: would prefer the option not to have a voiced protagonist), and "liking self insertion" is not among my reasons for being against it. As far as I can tell, that's what you asked, and I explained my reasons beyond that for the sake of being more informative than just saying why I don't like self-insertion.

I don't have a problem other people liking self insertion either, I just don't get it, nor have had the desire to do it.

 

[JohnZ117]

I never asked if, nor assumed that, self-insertion was the Sole reason for opposition to Bethesda's decision. Nor do I believe it is a bad thing, just not for me. It may be a little narcissistic, however.

I have a question to those against the v.o. protagonist, is one of the reasons because you like to do self-insertion? I have no significant problem with that, but I prefer to see my self as the "director" and see the p.c. as a character in the story unto him/herself.

I'm a little confused, I'm someone who's against the v.o. protagonist (ie: would prefer the option not to have a voiced protagonist), and "liking self insertion" is not among my reasons for being against it. As far as I can tell, that's what you asked, and I explained my reasons beyond that for the sake of being more informative than just saying why I don't like self-insertion.

I don't have a problem other people liking self insertion either, I just don't get it, nor have had the desire to do it.

For some odd reason, I felt the need to clarify what evidently didn't need clarification.

Ot, I am still against the petition and tentatively for a voiced protagonist.

 

[DementedSheep]

Haha, your calling me obnoxious? Please remove the stick from up your ass and stop finding any excuse to dismiss opinions you don't like as "casual". If you can reach that far of course.

I was referring to your comment, dismissing someone's well thought out opinion without making any form of counter argument, as obnoxious. I have not labelled anyone as a "casual", as it is not a term I think has any meaning.

It's just all downside and no upside as far as I can see. With Bioware it was at least kind of a tradeoff, since giving Shephard a voice sort of allowed them to inject some emotions and character into him to begin with and for other characters to interact with, but Bethesda simply doesn't make that kind of game.

That is my assessment as well. I didn't like it in Mass Effect either. It was one of the reasons (though not the main one) that I didn't finish the first game.

Yet despite thinking casual is word without meaning you agree with and consider "cause causals" a well thought out argument? It's not, it's just arrogant and doing the typical internet thing of assuming people with X also belong to Y group. That was the bit I was replying to and you even cut out the rest of their comment and replied to the causal bit yourself.
I wasn't replying to the rest because the rest wasn't what I take issue with. I'm not arguing against less options because of cost being a disadvantage of VAing in general (it has nothing to do with begin casual or not. It is more a difference of more how much you want a large range of options vs how much you think VAing adds) and already said that last couple of fallout games haven't been particularly dialogue option heavy anyway which is why I'm not bothered. It's not like Bethesda is stuck for cash and they can pretty much guarantee fallout 4 is going sell well so they can afford VAing. As for the argument of delivery having a different meaning than you intended through tone, that has always been a problem with dialogue options because however you imagined it being said the character you said it to is going respond based on the way it was intended to be said. I've had to reload in old text based RPGS because something was an insult or flirt and I didn't realise it was intended that way. I have had to do that more in VAed bioware games but that's because of the badly done paraphrasing not the VAing itself. At least with VAed line you can usually tell what the intended meaning was straight away.

 

[ThreeName]

I have a question to those against the v.o. protagonist, is one of the reasons because you like to do self-insertion? I have no significant problem with that, but I prefer to see my self as the "director" and see the p.c. as a character in the story unto him/herself.

I've never self-inserted in my life, but I hate the voiced main character for essentially the reason you stated; I see the character unto themselves. When I played New Vegas over and over again, my characters ranged from an old, disgruntled, alcoholic wanderer who had faked his death, deserted the Rangers and picked up odd jobs across the West to get by to a young female descendent of a man failed Chinese strike team, dangerously intelligent with science and machines and wholly untrusting of anyone or anything of the world around her. I just can't get that sort of character role-play if it all has to start with YOU ARE IN A HAPPY RELATIONSHIP. YOU HAVE CHILD. FEEL LOVE FOR CHILD AND SPOUSE. NOW THEY ARE DEAD. FEEL SAD.

I hate the idea that my character is going to be restricted by dialogue and fixed backstory, let alone the removal of skills and other such nonsense.

The main problem I do have with the o.p.'s petition is that you seem to be saying that the people of Bethesda should not be doing what they want to/choose to do with their project, and the most power you should have in that is whether or not you buy the game. Video game are an art-form and what happens with each work should be up to the artists themselves. If they choose to ask for input, give it to them respectfully, never say "But Thou Must!," and respect that the developers (should) have the final say, and that no outsider should threaten with anything but a respectful "No sale."

God do I loathe this "games are art" argument. Video games at this level are not an art-form, the people making it are not artists, this is a goddamn business. This is not an auteur's pet project. If you ask a big developer pushing out another sequel what's important, all you're going to hear them bang on about it "what the fans want". At no point during E3 will you hear the words "I'm doing this for my artistic integrity and I don't care if no-one likes it". People voicing complaints about a mass-marketed, mass-appealing commercial product are not violating some sacred code of artwork. This is even more apparent in the development of sequels; I'd actually cut this argument a little slack if it were a new IP, because then there is a sense of originality and designer-driven focus, and I would say "they can do what they want", but when you're selling games based on a name, you are answerable to the people who will buy the game based on that name.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

People like to *****. Did anyone moan with Mass Effects voice acted characters? No. Did they say "oh, i cant get immersed because my voice is nothing like the voice actors?" No. So no one will have a problem playing this game and being immersed in the Fallout world.

 

[Flames66]

Yet despite thinking casual is word without meaning you agree with and consider "cause causals" a well thought out argument? It's not, it's just arrogant and doing the typical internet thing of assuming people with X also belong to Y group. That was the bit I was replying to and you even cut out the rest of their comment and replied to the causal bit yourself.

I agree with the sentiment of the post, not every word and phrase within in. I do see your point though.

I wasn't replying to the rest because the rest wasn't what I take issue with. I'm not arguing against less options because of cost being a disadvantage of VAing in general (it has nothing to do with being casual or not. It is more a difference of more how much you want a large range of options vs how much you think VAing adds) and already said that last couple of fallout games haven't been particularly dialogue option heavy anyway which is why I'm not bothered.

That makes sense. I personally find a voice acted protagonist detracts from the experience.

It's not like Bethesda is stuck for cash and they can pretty much guarantee fallout 4 is going sell well so they can afford VAing. As for the argument of delivery having a different meaning than you intended through tone, that has always been a problem with dialogue options because however you imagined it being said the character you said it to is going respond based on the way it was intended to be said. I've had to reload in old text based RPGS because something was an insult or flirt and I didn't realise it was intended that way. I have had to do that more in VAed bioware games but that's because of the badly done paraphrasing not the VAing itself. At least with VAed line you can usually tell what the intended meaning was straight away.

I agree. I think it is much less of a problem when the dialogue is entirely text based because there is more ambiguity. I can interpret another characters reactions in ways that make sense to my narrative, but I cannot get past my own character phrasing something wrong or saying something with the wrong tone or intonation.

I just can't get that sort of character role-play if it all has to start with YOU ARE IN A HAPPY RELATIONSHIP. YOU HAVE CHILD. FEEL LOVE FOR CHILD AND SPOUSE. NOW THEY ARE DEAD. FEEL SAD.

I hate the idea that my character is going to be restricted by dialogue and fixed backstory, let alone the removal of skills and other such nonsense.

This looks like it could be a major, even game breaking issue for me as well. I come up with my own backstory. If that is suddenly contradicted by anything from how the game forces me to respond to something, to characters having preexisting relationships with me that do not fit, to something as simple as my accent being wrong, it wrenches me out of the experience like someone has scribbled a poorly written fan fiction over a chapter of a book in crayon.

 

[JohnZ117]

I have a question to those against the v.o. protagonist, is one of the reasons because you like to do self-insertion? I have no significant problem with that, but I prefer to see my self as the "director" and see the p.c. as a character in the story unto him/herself.

I've never self-inserted in my life, but I hate the voiced main character for essentially the reason you stated; I see the character unto themselves. When I played New Vegas over and over again, my characters ranged from an old, disgruntled, alcoholic wanderer who had faked his death, deserted the Rangers and picked up odd jobs across the West to get by to a young female descendent of a man failed Chinese strike team, dangerously intelligent with science and machines and wholly untrusting of anyone or anything of the world around her. I just can't get that sort of character role-play if it all has to start with YOU ARE IN A HAPPY RELATIONSHIP. YOU HAVE CHILD. FEEL LOVE FOR CHILD AND SPOUSE. NOW THEY ARE DEAD. FEEL SAD.

I hate the idea that my character is going to be restricted by dialogue and fixed backstory, let alone the removal of skills and other such nonsense.

Spoiler: Two of my Mass Effect characters

Erica Shepard, Infiltrator- colonist and sole survivor backgrounds
Erica loves tech, soccer and mountain climbing. Her "first time" was with a mid-fielder named Nathan Redd. Their relationship was terminated by the pirate attack and his body was never recovered. Hardened by the event, she changed course from technical research to military, excelling in covert operations and survival.

Tetra Shepard, Adept- spacer and war hero backgrounds

Although it is not precisely known how Tetra obtained her biotic powers, microfractures were discovered in the drive core that her mother, an assistant to the engineer at the time, worked around. Despite societal progression, the frequency of changing homes made it difficult for adolescent Tetra to find a relationship. She did hook up with a troubled young woman who (along with Shepard) frequently experimented drugs like peyote, which led to an embarassng moment for Tetra. The other young woman is unmentioned by Shepard for the sake of her privacy, though she has admitted the lady is a government official now. After the battle of Elysium, Tetra admitted during an interview that her biggest turn-on is curiosity, as evidenced by her other relationships, an artist, a physics student, and a reporter, who she was vacationing with at the time.

There is still room for imagination in these kinds of games.

 

[ThreeName]

Spoiler: Two of my Mass Effect characters

Erica Shepard, Infiltrator- colonist and sole survivor backgrounds
Erica loves tech, soccer and mountain climbing. Her "first time" was with a mid-fielder named Nathan Redd. Their relationship was terminated by the pirate attack and his body was never recovered. Hardened by the event, she changed course from technical research to military, excelling in covert operations and survival.

Tetra Shepard, Adept- spacer and war hero backgrounds

Although it is not precisely known how Tetra obtained her biotic powers, microfractures were discovered in the drive core that her mother, an assistant to the engineer at the time, worked around. Despite societal progression, the frequency of changing homes made it difficult for adolescent Tetra to find a relationship. She did hook up with a troubled young woman who (along with Shepard) frequently experimented drugs like peyote, which led to an embarassng moment for Tetra. The other young woman is unmentioned by Shepard for the sake of her privacy, though she has admitted the lady is a government official now. After the battle of Elysium, Tetra admitted during an interview that her biggest turn-on is curiosity, as evidenced by her other relationships, an artist, a physics student, and a reporter, who she was vacationing with at the time.

There is still room for imagination in these kinds of games.

I think you and I have very different definitions of role playing. To me, role playing is not making up past relationships for my character, but using a past story combined with game mechanics to influence how to character acts and plays throughout the game. Whether Shepard's "first time" was with a midfielder or not makes no difference to how to game plays.

A linear story-based RPG =/= open-world freeform RPG. In Mass Effect, you're still always Commander Shepherd. In New Vegas, all you had was Courier; a single job title anyone could pick up at any point for any reason. The wealth of skills and dialogue options meant you could slip into a much larger variety of characters shoes. Something like Mass Effect lets you customise combat style, appearance and the occasional "moral" dialogue choice. Whoop di do. You still follow the same lame story, shooting all the peoples and being the hero; in New Vegas, you can beat to death every ************ who looks at you funny because you have zero charisma, 100 in unarmed and a hardened hate for humanity.

If Fallout turns into the guide-me-by-the-hand-style RPG Mass Effect is, it'll be a great loss for AAA RPGs.

 

[joshua1029384756]

I have a question to those against the v.o. protagonist, is one of the reasons because you like to do self-insertion? I have no significant problem with that, but I prefer to see my self as the "director" and see the p.c. as a character in the story unto him/herself.

The main problem I do have with the o.p.'s petition is that you seem to be saying that the people of Bethesda should not be doing what they want to/choose to do with their project, and the most power you should have in that is whether or not you buy the game. Video game are an art-form and what happens with each work should be up to the artists themselves. If they choose to ask for input, give it to them respectfully, never say "But Thou Must!," and respect that the developers (should) have the final say, and that no outsider should threaten with anything but a respectful "No sale."

(edit) p.s. I know you typed that you want it as an option, but that will still require an additional expense of work time, loss of personal time, additional money expended, and, if additional choices are added, effort into integrating the options seamlessly into the conversations and story.

Well if you want to argue expense then doesn't that give MORE reason to act since many of the reasons not to worry, we'll just make a mod for it, becomes void if it takes so much time and resource for a COMPANY to do it? And personally I can't possibly imagine it taking up so much time anyway. Subtitles would come automatically so that just means leaving out voice and facial showing program code. It wouldn't be rocket science.

As the vision you would have a excellent point, BUT I would argue that this wouldn't be a problem for me, or a lot of people, at all if this title was Fallout: Boston. I have seen the effects in games such as Mass Effect, where every single Bioware RPG now forces the thing in regardless of how people feel about the wheel (I find it mostly negative) if this was a spin off then I would have zero problem because it would have no impact on the main tittles and as such, the main experience. It is not. If people are ok with this it will be in Fallout 5, 6, 7 and possible Elder Scrolls 7, 8 and 9 and if you think that is paranoid, all other examples show this will happen.

Plus the biggest issue of all? It's not their vision! It's Bioware's vision! This isn't a NEW Dialogue system this is just a dialogue system they took from other games because that is what the cool kids are doing. If I did not see this before, or done differently like in Deux Ex then fine, let them try their vision, but it ISN'T their vision! The way I see it I am not missing out because they want to try something new, because it isn't new! I am missing out because they want to be like other games. I don't WANT to play other games, I don't WANT to play a first person apocalypse Mass Effect I want to play FALLOUT, in all it's uniqueness and oddity, THATS what I want to pay for! Sure, you can twist up the system to keep it fresh, the settlement and crafting are brilliant I want more of that! But they are giving up the role play part of RPG!

 

[joshua1029384756]

Ok guys get ready to lose your shit...Even some of those who are all for voiced protagonist. When asked why they decided to add voice acting in Todd Howard replied:

?If you take a look at how stories are being told and a lot of them have a voiced character so if you weren?t looking at our games before, you would expect the character to be voiced. Our main anxiety with doing a voiced character is finding the right voices. We have two great voice actors doing the male and female [characters] and they have been fabulous and also how much time they had since we did not wanted to hold back any of our writing. They have been been recording stuff for the last two years. They have each recorded over 13,000 lines of dialogue. It has come out great and it allows us to do storytelling and emotional moments that we could not quite hit before.?

The total number of voice actor choices to choose from will be...Two. African American? Hispanic? Asian? Well fuck you middle aged white dude for everyone!

 

[JohnZ117]

Spoiler: Two of my Mass Effect characters

Erica Shepard, Infiltrator- colonist and sole survivor backgrounds
Erica loves tech, soccer and mountain climbing. Her "first time" was with a mid-fielder named Nathan Redd. Their relationship was terminated by the pirate attack and his body was never recovered. Hardened by the event, she changed course from technical research to military, excelling in covert operations and survival.

Tetra Shepard, Adept- spacer and war hero backgrounds

Although it is not precisely known how Tetra obtained her biotic powers, microfractures were discovered in the drive core that her mother, an assistant to the engineer at the time, worked around. Despite societal progression, the frequency of changing homes made it difficult for adolescent Tetra to find a relationship. She did hook up with a troubled young woman who (along with Shepard) frequently experimented drugs like peyote, which led to an embarassng moment for Tetra. The other young woman is unmentioned by Shepard for the sake of her privacy, though she has admitted the lady is a government official now. After the battle of Elysium, Tetra admitted during an interview that her biggest turn-on is curiosity, as evidenced by her other relationships, an artist, a physics student, and a reporter, who she was vacationing with at the time.

There is still room for imagination in these kinds of games.

I think you and I have very different definitions of role playing. To me, role playing is not making up past relationships for my character, but using a past story combined with game mechanics to influence how to character acts and plays throughout the game. Whether Shepard's "first time" was with a midfielder or not makes no difference to how to game plays.

A linear story-based RPG =/= open-world freeform RPG. In Mass Effect, you're still always Commander Shepherd.

Study the past if you would define the future- Confucius
I think that the character's past not only adds depth to the character, but also informs how the character may act in certain situations. If a person's family and friends were all killed by members of a certain "group," for example, that person might not respond well to meeting with other members of that "group." Thus, the story progresses that way. Role playing.

I have a question to those against the v.o. protagonist, is one of the reasons because you like to do self-insertion? I have no significant problem with that, but I prefer to see my self as the "director" and see the p.c. as a character in the story unto him/herself.

The main problem I do have with the o.p.'s petition is that you seem to be saying that the people of Bethesda should not be doing what they want to/choose to do with their project, and the most power you should have in that is whether or not you buy the game. Video game are an art-form and what happens with each work should be up to the artists themselves. If they choose to ask for input, give it to them respectfully, never say "But Thou Must!," and respect that the developers (should) have the final say, and that no outsider should threaten with anything but a respectful "No sale."

(edit) p.s. I know you typed that you want it as an option, but that will still require an additional expense of work time, loss of personal time, additional money expended, and, if additional choices are added, effort into integrating the options seamlessly into the conversations and story.

Well if you want to argue expense then doesn't that give MORE reason to act since many of the reasons not to worry, we'll just make a mod for it, becomes void if it takes so much time and resource for a COMPANY to do it? And personally I can't possibly imagine it taking up so much time anyway. Subtitles would come automatically so that just means leaving out voice and facial showing program code. It wouldn't be rocket science.

I did not say the dialogue system proposed couldn't or shouldn't be done, I said that (and why) it shouldn't be demanded of them. If modders want to put that in, then I have no problem with that.

 

[DementedSheep]

I agree with the sentiment of the post, not every word and phrase within in. I do see your point though.

Alight, I misinterpreted and thought you snip'ed the rest because that was the crux of what you agreed with. I apologise for jumping down your throat.

That makes sense. I personally find a voice acted protagonist detracts from the experience.

Fair enough, personally I'm fine with either approach. They both have things I like and things I don't. I'd be sad if you had all RPGs doing it one way or the other.

I agree. I think it is much less of a problem when the dialogue is entirely text based because there is more ambiguity. I can interpret another characters reactions in ways that make sense to my narrative, but I cannot get past my own character phrasing something wrong or saying something with the wrong tone or intonation.

True, although either way I find I have to 'edit' my characters reactions sometimes. If it's a non voiced protagonist with other voiced characters your character tends to stand there looking like a deer in headlights saying nothing in important scenes and you don't often get strong reactions to something. If it is voiced sometimes the tone is off and it makes it bit less ambiguous although the only time I can think of where off tone really got under my skin was in ME2 with Femshep and Jacob because the VAing for that makes it seem like Femshep is constantly flirting with him and can't take a hint.