Karma Systems

[Kanlic]

That same goal could've easily been accomplished without the karma system. In fact, blindly accepting what the game thinks is good and bad just makes it worse.

I killed the ghouls, too. Didn't kill the ones who weren't part of the mudering, though, just Roy and the guy who attacked me. The game considered it "bad karma". How? Why is killing that guy bad karma, but shooting Tenpenny in the face, often with no reason, mind you, is quite alright.

You can't foresee the motivations of players' actions with a simple karma system. Life doesn't work like that. Sure, there are things that are monumentaly good and bad - but in a world like Fallout 3, even those get all mashed up. Grading certain actions with a karma system is not only limiting creative thinking, not only disconnecting the player with the character, but if you give rewards based on it, that limits the player's freedom. In a game like Fallout 3, that's fucking unacceptable.

I said this in one of my responses, so I don't blame you for not reading it, but I view the karma system in place of a reputation system. In this sense I might not be evil for what I did because I thought I did the right thing, but all of that is for naught if society thinks I am an evil git. As a result I became some kind of anti-hero cowboy. I know this view wasn't the intention of the developer, but when viewed this way the system takes on a whole different meaning.

I hear New Vegas does this with a faction system, but I haven't had a chance to play it.

I'm still on the opinion that a Karma system is biased by what the developers deem good or evil, and since it's so binary in most games, you will end up with either John Paul II. or Josef Stalin as your rating. The way you described your actions, you did nothing that would constitute for the Regulators to show up. You sought a diplomatic approach, but the ghouls steppd out of line, commited mass murdering and you, being the only one who knew of it and who was capable of doing so, put down a group of murderous racists. Yes, the ghouls in the tower are just as racist at that point for indescriminately killing everyone.
Why are you evil based on that?
Because I don't think the Fallout morality system works. It often has some bright moments, but overall it's Black/White decisions that leave you either a saint or a sinner. No inbetween, no shades of gray. You just do either thing.
I realize just how complex it is to intertwine all the actions in a game with consequences and make them more morally ambigous and I don't believe in the Bioware attempt either, since they go to extreme lengths just to make sure there is not a single option that is purely good.

I think Metro2033 did an okay job at Karma because it neither rated you for it nor gave you visible points throughout the game. It didn't tell you that you were evil and you would never have known if you haven't managed the good ending. Your actions were good or evil in that game as well, but it makes sense what is good: not killing, don't steal from people, be helpful

In Fallout I often felt that stealing from rapists and murderers is not something that should be considered negative Karma. Neither is just randomly spraying the insides of every last Fiend you can find over their Vault without giving them any chance at rehabilitation. Granted, they're just mindless enemies in Fallout New Vegas, but I don't see why some of them wouldn't consider NOT being on every psychopharmaceutic product the Wasteland can provide and NOT being generally hated murderes and psychopaths.

The funny thing about karma systems in games is that you gotta what approach to morality the game is going for. Is it utilitarian approach where the result of the action like what the Fallout games seem to do (such as stealing is ALWAYS wrong) or is it the Kantian method where intention is the only factor a la InFamous(although Cole never follows the categorical imperative strictly but then again who does?) Hell it could be a multitude of other philosophies. The problem is that as humans, we know that actions have a more nuanced reasoning behind them than the game world tends to accept. As a result, we are playing in some hypothetical world with imposed values, and if there is anything I know about people, it's that they hate other people telling them how to think.

That's why in games like Fallout I use karma meters as the bystanders point of view of my actions as a better assessment of them. It allows for an outsiders look on a situation, which is why I equate karma to rep. However I know that is stretching the truth about the system, so more often than naught I play games that have morality as more of a case study on morality, which is often funny/infuriating because of how simplistic it can be.

Well, on the subject of Karma and Fallout, I think that New Vegas was horrible in terms of it's karma. Your karma did not effect a single thing as far as I know. But it did have a much better system... the factions. While Karma has it's place, I think it's far more immersive when you're effecting each group seperately instead of a general 'good or evil.' That's especially true when the group in question may be an 'evil' one. Not to mention that some groups likely don't talk much with others, so karma effecting how every group sees you doesn't make much sense. For example, the people in the giant ship in Fallout 3 (can't remember the name) likely don't talk much with Megaton, as going that far is pretty dangerous, and therefore it's unlikely that your karma should follow you to those places.

Anyways, mini-rant aside, I like karma, but I like the idea of factions and even individuals having person opinions on the PC.

Ditto, btw the broken ship was called Rivet City

 

[Codeknight]

I stole whenever I had the chance, most if not all my actions were driven by what was in my best interest, and I had a sense of superiority over everyone else. I took it upon myself to decide what was right and wrong when it isn't my choice at all.

I think the problem with this in game is that none of the items, aside from ammo and weapons and even then only for some characters, are needed. I take everything because I know I am the only one that will use it, it's all there for me to acquire. If I where to play a game where everything is used, dwarf fortress for example, I wouldn't steal. If I stole food, money, or a production item that would be used in a job the end result could easily be starvation.

There are no consequences for stealing in games, only getting caught. That's why all my characters will stay kleptomaniacs.

 

[JourneyThroughHell]

That same goal could've easily been accomplished without the karma system. In fact, blindly accepting what the game thinks is good and bad just makes it worse.

I killed the ghouls, too. Didn't kill the ones who weren't part of the mudering, though, just Roy and the guy who attacked me. The game considered it "bad karma". How? Why is killing that guy bad karma, but shooting Tenpenny in the face, often with no reason, mind you, is quite alright.

You can't foresee the motivations of players' actions with a simple karma system. Life doesn't work like that. Sure, there are things that are monumentaly good and bad - but in a world like Fallout 3, even those get all mashed up. Grading certain actions with a karma system is not only limiting creative thinking, not only disconnecting the player with the character, but if you give rewards based on it, that limits the player's freedom. In a game like Fallout 3, that's fucking unacceptable.

I said this in one of my responses, so I don't blame you for not reading it, but I view the karma system in place of a reputation system. In this sense I might not be evil for what I did because I thought I did the right thing, but all of that is for naught if society thinks I am an evil git. As a result I became some kind of anti-hero cowboy. I know this view wasn't the intention of the developer, but when viewed this way the system takes on a whole different meaning.

I hear New Vegas does this with a faction system, but I haven't had a chance to play it.

Granted. That still won't make it a "good" system, but it does become a lot more reasonable in that light.

 

[Kanlic]

I think the problem with this in game is that none of the items, aside from ammo and weapons and even then only for some characters, are needed. I take everything because I know I am the only one that will use it, it's all there for me to acquire. If I where to play a game where everything is used, dwarf fortress for example, I wouldn't steal. If I stole food, money, or a production item that would be used in a job the end result could easily be starvation.

There are no consequences for stealing in games, only getting caught. That's why all my characters will stay kleptomaniacs.

That's pretty true. I'm paraphrasing Yahtzee when I say that video game actions are more reminiscent of an autistic person who must search every nook and cranny than a person with a real goal. To be honest, Fallout would have more of an impact if everything was time sensitive. Think about how different the game would be.

 

[Jumpingbean3]

I think the best thing to do would be to do away with karma meters entirely and replace them with reputation meters for each of the games factions. Fallout New Vegas took a step in the right direction by including reputation but made the mistake of keeping the karma meter.