Kendo Confusion

[demoman_chaos]

I was watching some longsword competition finals, and I pondered how different kendo finals are.
So I punched "kendo finals" into youtube and came across a world championship finals. I don't understand what I am looking at. I'll post the videos below.

I have studied german longsword and looked into eastern sword styles, but I cannot figure out what the hell they are doing in Kendo. They stand within hugging range for a very large portion of the bout, and a few times I spotted a blade resting on the neck of the foe. I have spotted several easy and safe killing blows that could have made but didn't (as I said, I am not an expert but I have studied the usage of swords and do live steel reenactment combat).

Are their any kendo practioners on the Escapist that can explain to me what the rules are and why they aren't doing a lot of obvious attacks that would equal a dead enemy with real blades?

Spoiler: Longsword video

Spoiler: Kendo video

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I'm no practitioner of Kendo (or any other martial art, for that matter) but I imagine it has something to do with the way samurai traditionally fought. The Katana is not designed for edge to edge contact; for a good portion of Japanese history, they weren't very good at making steel, and you could pretty easily destroy a sword if you did it. It's just a guess, but I'm thinking the idea is to fight while avoiding direct contact of the edges of the blades. It certainly looks like they're mostly slapping the sides together in the video.

Edit: Also, the katana is a single edged sword, so if you're thinking like a broadsword wielder, you may be seeing killing blows where it would really just be smacking someone with the blunt side of the blade.

 

[demoman_chaos]

I'm no practitioner of Kendo (or any other martial art, for that matter) but I imagine it has something to do with the way samurai traditionally fought. The Katana is not designed for edge to edge contact; for a good portion of Japanese history, they weren't very good at making steel, and you could pretty easily destroy a sword if you did it. It's just a guess, but I'm thinking the idea is to fight while avoiding direct contact of the edges of the blades. It certainly looks like they're mostly slapping the sides together in the video.

I meant more why they are not taking advantages of clear openings and standing with swords crossed (often with their blade on the other side of the opponents) like a bad movie swordfight.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I'm no practitioner of Kendo (or any other martial art, for that matter) but I imagine it has something to do with the way samurai traditionally fought. The Katana is not designed for edge to edge contact; for a good portion of Japanese history, they weren't very good at making steel, and you could pretty easily destroy a sword if you did it. It's just a guess, but I'm thinking the idea is to fight while avoiding direct contact of the edges of the blades. It certainly looks like they're mostly slapping the sides together in the video.

I meant more why they are not taking advantages of clear openings and standing with swords crossed (often with their blade on the other side of the opponents) like a bad movie swordfight.

Whoops, edited at about the same time you posted. Standing with swords crossed probably has a lot to do with what I was saying about edge to edge contact. For the rest, are you sure it would have been on the sharp side of the blade? We're talking about curved single edged swords here. Not that you can tell from the things they're using, but I'd guess the shape of the real sword has something to do with the scoring.

It would be nice to hear from someone who actually knows something about kendo, though.

 

[demoman_chaos]

Whoops, edited at about the same time you posted. Standing with swords crossed probably has a lot to do with what I was saying about edge to edge contact. For the rest, are you sure it would have been on the sharp side of the blade? We're talking about curved single edged swords here. Not that you can tell from the things they're using, but I'd guess the shape of the real sword has something to do with the scoring.

It would be nice to hear from someone who actually knows something about kendo, though.

Almost positive it was edge forward. As for swords crossed:

I hope someone can point out the scoring system, and if thrusts are counted. THey don't go for anything but vertical head whacks, so I am not sure if they are.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Whoops, edited at about the same time you posted. Standing with swords crossed probably has a lot to do with what I was saying about edge to edge contact. For the rest, are you sure it would have been on the sharp side of the blade? We're talking about curved single edged swords here. Not that you can tell from the things they're using, but I'd guess the shape of the real sword has something to do with the scoring.

It would be nice to hear from someone who actually knows something about kendo, though.

Almost positive it was edge forward. As for swords crossed:

I hope someone can point out the scoring system, and if thrusts are counted. THey don't go for anything but vertical head whacks, so I am not sure if they are.

I was thinking it might be different with the katana, but you have a point.

Wikipedia has a section on scoring; apparently thrusts do count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo

Edit: There's always the possibility that Kendo is less the way samurai would have actually fought, and more a spectator sport these days, with the very different goals that come with the territory. For a western example, MMA fighters put a huge emphasis on the ground game based on the way the rules of their sports work out, but in reality, you never, ever want to get on the ground if you can avoid it.

 

[demoman_chaos]

I was thinking it might be different with the katana, but you have a point.

Wikipedia has a section on scoring; apparently thrusts do count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo

Tis all the same, all swords are simply iron/steel bars with handles and sharp bits. Biomechanics and physics applies to everything.

Judging from the wiki scoring system, those world champs were missing on some easy stabby points. A quick jab is hard to counter, which is why the rapier is such a tough foe to stop.

EDIT: In a 1v1 fight, the ground is a great place to take a fight if you know what you are doing. A lot of western styles martial arts (including those involving swords) utilize grappling. If you can get the dominant position, you do.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I was thinking it might be different with the katana, but you have a point.

Wikipedia has a section on scoring; apparently thrusts do count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo

Tis all the same, all swords are simply iron/steel bars with handles and sharp bits. Biomechanics and physics applies to everything.

Judging from the wiki scoring system, those world champs were missing on some easy stabby points. A quick jab is hard to counter, which is why the rapier is such a tough foe to stop.

True. The Katana is noticeably curved, though. Not that that should really matter in kendo, since it uses a straight wooden facsimile. Confusing.

 

[demoman_chaos]

True. The Katana is noticeably curved, though. Not that that should really matter in kendo, since it uses a straight wooden facsimile. Confusing.

Very much so.
It does reinforce my theory that in a duel, the knight would have the advantage over a samurai (not counting armor, if I did then the samurai wouldn't have much hope of even hurting the knight). The movements in kendo seem so much more rigid than the action in the longsword fighting video.

 

[bluepilot]

I play kendo, I have done for 8 years and now hold a 3rd dan.

Kendo is a highly stylistic version of katana based fighting. Over the past 100 years or so, the number of techniques which as acceptable in kendo has reduced significantly. For example, the number of targets available reduced from about 10 to 4. As part of this, strikes involving the legs and diagonal cuts were removed from modern kendo. Thus there are only 4 targets, the head, wrist, throat, and stomach, and you can only obtain these with straight cuts moving the body forward or backwards.

To obtain a point in kendo, the player has to hit one of the targets using perfect timing and technique. Slips in timing and technique will cause the point to be lost, even if the target has hit.

The players that you are watching, are trying to get a advantage over their opponent using the guard on their swords to get in a clear and straight cut. In the earlier versions of kendo, it was perfectly acceptable to floor your opponent, go for the legs or cut diagonally from this position. I think that this earlier kendo would have made more sense from a fighting perspective. Some clubs still practice these old school styles.

Kendo is very simplistic, and in a way this makes it hard to watch. It takes years of special training to learn how to watch kendo properly. Even though I have studied kendo for 8 years, I am only qualified to judge 14 year olds and younger....and I would not want to attempt anything higher than that.

So yeah, you are allowed to be confused, study kendo for 50 years or so, and you will still be confused.

 

[demoman_chaos]

-snip-

So basically you have 4 attacks you can use? You can't even thrust?

Thank you mate. I'll be sure to send any more kendo questions your way.

 

[bluepilot]

-snip-

So basically you have 4 attacks you can use? You can't even thrust?

Thank you mate. I'll be sure to send any more kendo questions your way.

More or less. There is one thrust (that is to the throat) which can be one or two handed. Then there is a straight cut to the head, a straight cut to the right wrist and then a cut to the stomach to the right if moving forwards and to the left if moving backwards. These basic techniques are combined with various parrys, making a total of 46 techniques, which is relatively small for swordsmanship. In old school kendo there used to be 110.

You can ask me anytime

 

[Mordekaien]

So basically you have 4 attacks you can use? You can't even thrust?

Thank you mate. I'll be sure to send any more kendo questions your way.

This goes for the sports version. There are still styles that use techniques as they were used in real combat, however they are in the minority. I've had the pleasure of trying one of these styles, and I must say it was pretty fun, most of those techniques are pretty similar to those of a longsword.

 

[Spade Lead]

More or less. There is one thrust (that is to the throat) which can be one or two handed. Then there is a straight cut to the head, a straight cut to the right wrist and then a cut to the stomach to the right if moving forwards and to the left if moving backwards. These basic techniques are combined with various parrys, making a total of 46 techniques, which is relatively small for swordsmanship. In old school kendo there used to be 110.

You can ask me anytime

I used a more western "Fencing" style when my friend and I used to spar, and until he got used to the friendly, minimal rules version we used, neither of us got a good kill in without the other making one as well. Keep in mind, I was home-taught watching sword fighting movies and he was Pro-trained like Bluepilot here. Once he got used to it, I considered myself good to get the strike in when he did. I could beat him on occasion, but as a professionally trained swordsman, he was just a hair better than me. He mentioned that his rule system had 8 strikes, so I am guessing you are using even newer rules than he had over a decade ago.

We wanted to run our own Jedi Academy sword fighting school, and we got fucking amazing at it, but when we both played for keeps, we had matches last up to 20 minutes. Once we got a feel for each other's rhythm, we could hit faster than Obi-Wan and Anakin in their last fight scene, and go way longer than the run time of that whole section of the movie. We had neighborhood kids watching us in awe, and sometimes their "Holy Shit!" exclamations would even penetrate our concentration. Of course, the thing that made us so cool was that I decided for no other reason than to be a badass to dual-wield my swords. (This is my only word of advice on that: It is 200% harder than single wielding, with only about a 10% gain in combat effectiveness against an equally skilled opponent who is single wielding. Go against someone who is inexperienced and things will go wrong quickly. That said, the person who uses two swords at once is one badass looking ************, and his opponent is even more amazing looking for holding him off.)

I took another apprentice here recently, but since my friend and I hadn't sparred in like 5 years, most of my skills were gone, and I was lucky things went as well as they did. Of course, we stopped when I broke my good Kendo Stick and then the replacement we had that she was supposed to be using. I still have one Kendo Stick left, but I am saving it until I can find a place that carries them around here.

 

[Hoodlum25]

I want to get get into sword fighting possibly kendo, what should I look for in a dojo?

 

[demoman_chaos]

This goes for the sports version. There are still styles that use techniques as they were used in real combat, however they are in the minority. I've had the pleasure of trying one of these styles, and I must say it was pretty fun, most of those techniques are pretty similar to those of a longsword.

I greatly prefer that. The longsword does have a lot of moves that I am unsure if were ever used in the east, like half sword and using the pommel to strike.

I want to get get into sword fighting possibly kendo, what should I look for in a dojo?

I'd look for a historical/reenactment group first, and a sport group second. Sport fencing is a bit too rigid and picky and doesn't incorporate a large chunk of things you can do.

-snip-

I am unsure how true that story is. Your wording makes me very suspicious, especially the comparison to Star Wars. Sword fighting movies like those from hollywood? Hollywood is the WORST place to get swordsmanship from.

Spoiler: A viking age video of real sword fighters debunking myths

More or less. There is one thrust (that is to the throat) which can be one or two handed. Then there is a straight cut to the head, a straight cut to the right wrist and then a cut to the stomach to the right if moving forwards and to the left if moving backwards. These basic techniques are combined with various parrys, making a total of 46 techniques, which is relatively small for swordsmanship. In old school kendo there used to be 110.

You can ask me anytime

Any idea why they judges are so picky about what you can and can't do?

 

[COMaestro]

Any idea why they judges are so picky about what you can and can't do?

I practiced Kendo for a number of years, not as much as bluepilot above but my experience was enjoyable. Life just got too busy to continue practicing. Kendo itself is a sport, and as such has set rules. I think the pickiness of the judges ultimately it comes down to the perfectionist ideals of Japanese culture. A successful strike in Kendo needs to have perfect timing, with the hit, your footwork, and kiai (shout/spirit) all happening at once. Also, there really isn't any blocking in Kendo, which makes it rather ineffective as actual training with a sword. Sure, two opponents in a match could swing away at each other and hit each other repeatedly or defend as much as possible, however much of the meaning behind it would be lost and it just wouldn't be Kendo.

I also practiced Iaido, which is more of a kata or form that is followed, instead of matches with opponents. It involves drawing the sword and attacking in the same motion, usually with the intention that the first strike would be injuring to the opponent and the follow up strike fatal. Opponents in Iaido are imaginary as a real sword is used and somebody (maybe yourself) would likely get hurt or killed. There are blocks and pommel strikes in some of the forms, which are based on forms that actual Samurai used, but since you have to do each form exactly right in order to be considered "good", it still isn't much use for actual sword combat training.

However, both are great exercise and I enjoyed Iaido immensely and hope to return to it someday. I still remember all 12 forms that I practiced and a couple other ones from more advanced lessons.

 

[COMaestro]

I want to get get into sword fighting possibly kendo, what should I look for in a dojo?

If you want to get into Kendo, then just try to find a dojo. I live in the Portland area of Oregon, and there's only a couple around. It is not the most popular of martial arts in America, from what I have noticed. My group had a beginner's class that was inexpensive and mostly just paid for the cost of the shinai (bamboo sword). You will focus mostly on footwork to begin with, so get used to shuffling your feet

If I remember correctly, we started with footwork, then moved into making the three basic strikes (men - head, do - torso, and kote - wrist) using kiai (shouting/spirit), then tried putting everything together. I joined the dojo after the beginners class as I was enjoying it. Our group had some spare sets of bogu (armor) which the students the sensei deemed ready were allowed to use until they could purchase their own set (I was one of those).

I enjoyed my time with Kendo but it gets to be very strenuous, so be prepared for a workout. And callouses on your feet and hands

 

[Slycne]

snip

Based on what I've seen and read, the reason is that Kendo, while evolved from traditional Japanese swordfighting, is more sport than martial art at this point. Or at the very least it's more of a blend. It has rigid rules for striking and scoring points well beyond - hit the opponent.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

I've actually done Kendo, Kenjutsu and European style sword fighting stuff and it's kind of a different aspect. Maybe it was the weapons we were using but a lot of the European stuff was essentially the same as using a club/axe, hit them with a whack using maximum body rotation and worst case scenario, grab the blade and smack them with the hilt (incidentally, my favourite move of all time even if it meant you needed to wear gloves). But this doesn't take into account how you judge this in competitions like OP was asking so I'm afraid I can't compare it to that.

For a counterpart, the kenjutsu guys who taught me stuff taught similar techniques but only if your weapon had one edge, a lot more focused on cutting vulnerable spots (like severing the wrist rather than say trying to lop an arm off). It was fun but impractical for competitions.

But then we had kendo and unfortunately, it wasn't sports kendo it was "We're samurais who can't speak japanese" kendo, they knew how the movements were meant to work but taught it like a mystic bullcrap bullet-blocking style. But it held my interest enough for me to talk to someone who did it sports like (my cousin)

The rules dictating where you can attack work an awful lot like fencing, I think someone above me posted the exact rules, but the idea is you only gain points for certain areas because everywhere else would be armoured.

Anyway, I got really rambly in this but to sum it up, it's got a set of rules for safety, actual Japanese sword stuff didn't follow them religiously (see Miyamoto Musashi for ideas on how you can use a katana but act like a jackass and beat just about everyone)