Killing is Too Easy

[Rossmallo]

That bit you mentioned about with the death sentence...I never thought of it that way before, and wow. I'm now even further against the death sentence.

Anyway...I've very recently discovered a game that focusses on this "Killing is too easy" thing - Undertale. It's only a demo, but it made several poingiant points. If you haven't played it and want to, it's a lovely little RPG, give it a go, but DON'T click the spoiler. If you've either played it or don't care...

Spoiler

The game utterly chewed me out for killing some random mooks, stating that I saved Toriel - the lovely mother figure I'd grown to love - ...But what if some of the mooks I had killed were to someone else what Toriel was to me? That made me feel like shit. So...I replayed it, and this is where it gets relevant due to the antagonist's speech.

"So, you didn't kill anyone. This time. But suppose you meet a relentless killer. What will happen then? You'll die, and die, and die. So what will you do then? Will you kill out of frustration, or quit and let me take over?"

This point here reinforces just how easy it has become for a lot of gamers to just kill everyone in thier way, because the option of a peaceful resoloution is more difficult as opposed to just leaving a trail of bodies. This, in conjunction with the "They could have been someone else's Toriel" line, really makes this game stand out as the Spec Ops: The Line of RPGs.

You will be glad to know that this has only strengthened my resolve. I will not take the easy approach. I will prove the antagonist wrong. I will show that it is NOT kill or be killed. The only monster is him, and I will be more than glad to show him who the only person who deserves death in that game is. He is not anyone's Toriel. He is nobody's role model. And he will NOT be mourned, due to the torment he would be putting people through if I wasn't there.

You think that's terrifying? Try

Spoiler: Warning: This shit is actually creepy

saving everyone you meet, but accidentally killing Toriel (due to a random crit or something...), feeling like shit because of it, going back on your save file... And having the motherfucking game call you out on it. Having that bloody flower RIDICULE you for thinking you could play God, thinking you could commit horrific atrocities just to see what would happen, then turn back the clock to rid yourself of consequence.

That really struck home for me. If we do something wrong, does the fact that there's no actual responsibility because it's 'just a game', or having the power to simply reverse the clock and undo that wrong,really make it acceptable our 'right'? I'm probably looking far too much into this than I should, but... Well, let's just say this game scared the living shit out of me. Funny how a retro-looking game, which isn't even a full game, could deliver a message so much more powerful than even Spec Ops: The Line

Spoiler

Yes, I'm aware of that. It's SUPPOSED to do that. That crit is unavoidable when she's low hp. Thing is, I was one attack away from that, but luckily I was livestreaming. Unbeknownst to me, because the chat window was obscured, someone was pleading at me to stop and was telling me how to do it correctly. He resorted to calling me on skype to stop.

More examples of how much a game can affect someone.

Also, two things. 1: It works in reverse, too. Yknow how some games, some people be a dick after being nice just to see what happens? FLOWEY KNOWS. (Please youtube it and save yourself the heartache of doing it yourself). And 2: ...

Go check the final page of your manual again.

 

[ZZoMBiE13]

OK it's simmered in my magnificent brain just long enough to spurt out in this post exactly why I find this column so backwards. I knew there was something familiar about it, but I could not put my finger on it at first.

I'm generally on the same page as the spirit of the article. Not the bits that call out Last of Us so much as the general tone. What jostles my flaps, to steal a line from the author, is the vessel by which all this sudden good will toward man is delivered.

This smacks of the kind of "do as I say" message mongering that old washed up rock-n-rollers use to do years after their poignancy has long since faded. Like Ozzy Osbourne after YEARS of drinking himself stupid shows up with a song about the evils of drinking and how it can destroy you or Alice Cooper singing "Hey Hey Hey Hey, Hey stupid" at people who would dare to do the same shit he had made his living doing only with less elaborate stage shows.

Yahtzee I've been here from the start in 2007. I'm a long time fan. And while I appreciate the fact that getting older lends itself to wisdom, you've been going on about killing hookers and hobos and your fellow man for over 5 years and reaping the rewards of it all. And having people cheering you on the whole way. You have made every possible joke at the expense of stabbing, strangling, or whatever other horrible means to dispatch another human being as casually as the joke can be made only now to show up and shake a finger.

It's fine to try and share your wisdom now that you're a bit older. Even a good thing if handled properly. But don't blame the games and don't cast a disapproving stare at the people who you've been marketing the same thing to for years without end. It's a bit incongruous for a man who once merrily quipped that he couldn't cum if the body didn't twitch to show up and start gabbing on about how casually GAMES regard the sanctity of life when that particular arrow lies handily in your quiver as well.

 

[Jumplion]

But for or this one, I'll make it easy, let's say serial killers, or let's go all out and say we've got a racially motivated serial child rapist/muderer (let's say, crazy white southern redneck sterotype who rapes and murders black children - no, handicapped black children, maybe gay, gotta max out the hate motivated crime factor) . How are people guilty of such a thing in any way worth keeping around?

Because now you are now literally defining the value of life to what you see fit, and that leads to a whole plethora of issues. When we deem one life unworthy of living, what is suitable for living? Should we kill homosexuals? After all, several countries enforce the death penalty for them. What about Black people that are statistically more likely to commit crimes due to a racist system. Some people think even a single murder should be punished with death, do we now enforce the death penalty to every murder despite context? Hell, Dante's Inferno puts people who commit fraud on some of the lowest levels of hell. Since we've defined some life as worthy of living and some not, clearly there must be different levels of value for people. Poor, homeless, sickly people are not as valuable as rich, young, healthy people, so therefore there is no reason to help those in need as their lives are not valuable.

This is not a slippery slope argument. This is exactly what you are doing by deciding what lives are worthy and what aren't. And I would rather not have one person decide who lives and who dies.

This isn't even going into how rehabilitation and treating humans, because make no mistake they are humans, decently within our prison systems (Europe's got it down pretty good) is a much more effective method than the current system of tossing anyone undesirable

But, of course, this is all off topic and something to discuss in another thread. To connect this topic to the current one, the value of life, whether it's treating every life with dignity or willfully slaughtering those "unworthy", is not a very common topic in games. Personally, I think The Last of Us does delve into this topic to an extent, mainly in "is it even worth it trying to survive in this world", though not particularly into the specific theme of the fragility of life and death.

 

[balladbird]

It doesn't even make a big deal out of him killing people half the time he makes a witty joke as he does it.

fairness where it's due, I've played through the game twice now, and not once did I ever hear Joel crack a joke after a kill. early on, when he had tess or bill with him, there would sometimes be conversation after a scuffle, but it was generally of the breathless "thank god that's over" variety than any sort of action movie bond one-liner. Joel ain't nathan drake.

as to the article, I honestly wish Yahtzee had simply stated some of these opinions during his review of "the last of us" proper. Now I see that it's not that he ignores the fact that moral ambiguity and an unpleasant main character are what the game was going for, simply that he can't enjoy a game with no likable characters. not a sentiment I agree with, but it's a whole heck of a lot easier to understand and respect than semantics like why they don't use the word "zombie" and random uncharted comparisons.

 

[5mj7R7yf4Dwr3gdZyyu9PeGNwYjlNrjzuh3iTXQG]

You must be a lot of fun at parties.

Depends on the party. You should have seen me when Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door to teach me about the meaning of Christmas.

Really, I just want people to actually be informed, and think about things critically. We humans do have a tendency to ignore evidence that disagrees with our current positions.

I addressed the point about the justice system in my post, and as I said, that sort of stuff is for another discussion...

No. You discussed the notion that our justice system is less than adequate, but then you went on to fabricate a villain that should (according to you) be eradicated, but you didn't address how we know he's guilty. In the real world, we never are certain. Evidence beyond reasonable doubt has too often proven to be wrong.

I'm sensitive to this particular detail because of the war on terror. Those who advocate enhanced interrogation have done so on the basis that we only torture terrorists. We don't have a terrorist detector. Nor do we have a guilt detector, even for crimes as heinous as raping children and bombing government buildings. There are assuredly innocent men detained at camp X-ray.

If we did want to go into hypotheticals, let us imagine, then, that we could truly rehabilitate the guy. Our treatments are ineffective now, but lets say we make some major advancements in psychiatry in the next fifty years, and can fix what's wrong in a convict's head that made him aberrant. Should we do this? Or should we still mix him the ultimate cocktail?

238U

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Makes sense to me. Even if what what the author (supplier) was putting out was crap, it wouldn't go anywhere if it didn't find an audience (demand).

I uh... yeah. That's exactly what I was saying. Thus "blame the audience, not the author" is pretty good advice. Was I incorrect in assuming your initial remark to be sarcastic?

Yes. "Blame the audience, not the author" I agree with that wholeheartedly. Goes along with the idea that if you don't like something don't buy it. Don't add to it's audience.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

The point of any punishment including life and the death penalty for a crime isn't revenge, rehabilitation, victim compensation, or even removing a dangerous and/or disruptive element from society, despite what the people who are responsible for doling out these punishments tell everybody. The point of the punishment is prevention, it's about scaring people so shitless about being punished that they won't even consider performing a crime, much less actually do it. If tomorrow society collapsed and punishments like jail or the death penalty could no longer happen, despite what those same people would say otherwise if asked prior, the vast majority of people would start stealing everything that wasn't nailed down, raping, and killing everybody else (many post apocalyptic games like The Last of Us are built on this point). It's the FEAR of punishment that allows society to even exist to begin with, to avoid descending into anarchy. Sure, many people will be falsely convicted and punished, including being executed, but this is an unavoidable cost of something that society can't function without.

OT: Violence is the go-to solution for most everything in fiction and games in particular not only because it's easy for the developers, or because humanity just inherently loves violence, but because it's probably the ultimate escapism. Hurting and killing others has always been the ultimate taboo throughout human history, even cultures that have allowed it set limits as to when, how, and why, so being allowed to witness and in games partake in violence in fiction allows us to be able to do something we never would be able to do otherwise without facing great consequences, and thus get out of our boring, mundane lives for a while. We spend most of our real lives interacting with others, trying to convince them to do what we want or to not do something, and otherwise avoiding physical conflict whenever possible. As a result, in our entertainment we love to see and partake in physical conflict because we would never be able to do so otherwise, something that's no only so different from our everyday lives, but something heavily frowned upon. We don't care much to talk our way out of or otherwise avoid conflict or see others do so in our fiction because that it isn't really an escape to do or see in our fiction what our real lives are like.

I think the real issue is that in fiction and games especially violence is the only solution to anything and everything, and we also don't want to see in our fiction the same crap over and over again, it gets boring. Even the ultimate escapism gets tiresome after seeing it for the 50,000th time.

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

The problem with video games like The Last of Us, comes from the very nature of the medium. Games are, by design, played for enjoyment - now that's not to say they can't be emotionally engaging, challenging, etc; but ultimately we feel some enjoyment from playing them. When you are playing as the villain/anti-hero problems arise in that if we are forced to commit terrible acts as part of the gameplay, we don't necessarily feel bad - in fact we possibly enjoy it if the gameplay is designed to be fun. So we have a situation were we are forced to play as the villain and identify with them, whilst not fully comprehending the gravity of their actions as it becomes lost in translation due to the enjoyability of the gameplay.

If The Last of Us was a book or movie, then the story would work as we are experiencing events directly through the eyes Joel without the visceral thrill of actually playing the game. That's my two cents anyway.

I see where you are coming from, but a long time ago, most movies and fiction books were also only considered as something to watch / read only for enjoyment. The thing is, that when a medium does mature creators become more confident about the expressive capabilities of their canvas, and begin tackling concepts that were previously unthinkable to the audience.
This is a phenomenon present in art as a whole.
The last of us is not the first game to do this, not even close, In fact the whole survival horror genre is arguably not designed solely for enjoyment. The situation has evolved and as I mentioned in another forum, Videogames are somewhat transcending their "game" status. They are gradually leaving behind most of their formal and mechanic requirements, to become something else.

Now it is not unlikely to find a movie that is very dark and delves in complex issues without ever leaving a feel-good sense in the viewer, and although a lot of people avoid that sort of experience, there is a huge audience craving the ideological clash. Games already begun doing this, not meaning that they are abandoning FUN, there will always be enjoyment, but they are no longer tied unavoidably to supplying rapid gratification.

 

[Jumplion]

The point of any punishment including life and the death penalty for a crime isn't revenge, rehabilitation, victim compensation, or even removing a dangerous and/or disruptive element from society, despite what the people who are responsible for doling out these punishments tell everybody. The point of the punishment is prevention, it's about scaring people so shitless about being punished that they won't even consider performing a crime, much less actually do it. If tomorrow society collapsed and punishments like jail or the death penalty could no longer happen, despite what those same people would say otherwise if asked prior, the vast majority of people would start stealing everything that wasn't nailed down, raping, and killing everybody else (many post apocalyptic games like The Last of Us are built on this point). It's the FEAR of punishment that allows society to even exist to begin with, to avoid descending into anarchy. Sure, many people will be falsely convicted and punished, including being executed, but this is an unavoidable cost of something that society can't function without.

That's assuming the only thing stopping people from looting, stealing, killing, and raping is the death penalty, which is clearly not the case. The concept of the death penalty being used to "scare" people is also false as places that do enforce the death penalty, at least in the US as far as I know, have about the same crime rate as other places without the death penalty. If it worked as a deterrent, Rick Perry wouldn't have had to enforce it for over 200 people already.

Now, I do agree with your statement of "It's the FEAR of punishment that allows society to even exist to begin with", though that is not specific to the death penalty, unless I've been reading your comment wrong this whole time.

 

[llafnwod]

Yes. "Blame the audience, not the author" I agree with that wholeheartedly. Goes along with the idea that if you don't like something don't buy it. Don't add to it's audience.

Then I mistook those for sarcastic air-quotes. Rock on, meng.

 

[Callate]

Good read. Some interesting thoughts on the situation.

It's hard for me to take killing seriously in most FPSs- in part because a) so frequently they don't even bother using different textures for different enemies of the same "type", or more than a small rotation of same, and b) playing multiplayer re-enforces the idea that "death" within the context of the game world is more of an inconvenience- being put in a penalty box, rather than the end of mortal consciousness.

I haven't played The Last of Us or Uncharted, as I don't own a PS3, so I can't directly relate on that account

I will relate something about the recent "Walking Dead" DLC, "400 Days", though that did bother me for different reasons, though spoilers apply.

Spoiler

In one of the game's five character segments, Bonnie, wounded by a gunshot and isolated from the other two people in her party, is hiding from her pursuers (including whoever shot her.) Crouching behind a tractor, and with someone coming near, she seizes a piece of rebar. When the unseen figure comes around the edge of the tractor, she hits them in the head with the rebar.

It turns to be one of the characters in your party.

Oh, grief! Oh, guilt, oh...

Except, if you don't hit her, the "unseen figure" hits you with her flashlight. You are dead. Game over. Try again.

It's really hard to feel an investment in an act of violence, no matter how much you're told you should, if you're never given another choice.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

The 'Last of Us' sure has a lot of defenders that come out of the wood work every which way when someone speaks ill of their game.

 

[Sarge034]

For the love of god Yahtzee, we aren't killing people. We are pointing pixels that put pixels into other pixels. There is so much fundamentally wrong with this argument I don't know where to start. Joel and Tess were going to talk to the smuggler because they needed to know where their shit was. They killed him because he tried to have them killed. They killed the first guard because he refused to let them talk to the smuggler and then he pulled his weapon and threatened them.

You're intentionally doing this stuff for the site traffic now, aren't you?
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

 

[Black Reaper]

That bit you mentioned about with the death sentence...I never thought of it that way before, and wow. I'm now even further against the death sentence.

Anyway...I've very recently discovered a game that focusses on this "Killing is too easy" thing - Undertale. It's only a demo, but it made several poingiant points. If you haven't played it and want to, it's a lovely little RPG, give it a go, but DON'T click the spoiler. If you've either played it or don't care...

Spoiler

The game utterly chewed me out for killing some random mooks, stating that I saved Toriel - the lovely mother figure I'd grown to love - ...But what if some of the mooks I had killed were to someone else what Toriel was to me? That made me feel like shit. So...I replayed it, and this is where it gets relevant due to the antagonist's speech.

"So, you didn't kill anyone. This time. But suppose you meet a relentless killer. What will happen then? You'll die, and die, and die. So what will you do then? Will you kill out of frustration, or quit and let me take over?"

This point here reinforces just how easy it has become for a lot of gamers to just kill everyone in thier way, because the option of a peaceful resoloution is more difficult as opposed to just leaving a trail of bodies. This, in conjunction with the "They could have been someone else's Toriel" line, really makes this game stand out as the Spec Ops: The Line of RPGs.

You will be glad to know that this has only strengthened my resolve. I will not take the easy approach. I will prove the antagonist wrong. I will show that it is NOT kill or be killed. The only monster is him, and I will be more than glad to show him who the only person who deserves death in that game is. He is not anyone's Toriel. He is nobody's role model. And he will NOT be mourned, due to the torment he would be putting people through if I wasn't there.

That sounds awesome, it reminds me of another game that has a similar theme, Fullmetal Daemon Muramasa
It's basically about a guy who has a sweet mecha, but his mecha comes with a curse, every time he kills someone he hates, he must also kill someone he loves

Spoiler: this might be a spoiler

The guy who made the mecha in-game made it to point out the hypocrisy of killing for justice and such, mostly everyone has family and friends and such who would mourn them if they died, so to balance the loss of life on the enemy's side, someone on your side has to die

Spoiler: now this is a spoiler

There is one point in one of the routes where you kill an asshole priest who raped a girl in front of an audience while a boy who had a crush on her watched, it seems as though you did the right thing, but later on a guy who wants to kill you says that his sister was under the priest's care, and now that he died she died too, even if he was a dick, by killing that priest you also killed an innocent girl

If you have free time, you should read this guy's translation of it

 

[kael013]

"Killing humans in a game to establish that our character has completely lost it, as in God of War and Spec Ops? Like it. Player-protagonist disconnect, very effective storytelling tool. Go nuts."

This is exactly what The Last of Us is about, and the fact that you don't seem to understand that is baffling to me.

In order to disconnect from something you have to connect to it in the first place. Showing the protagonist as Joel is shown from the very start doesn't allow for a disconnect - it just shows them as an unrepentant sociopathic killer, a mindset most of us can't get into. Now if they had shown us Joel acting as a normal person would have been acting at the beginning, then giving us a situation so bad that Joel accepts that being a ruthless killer is really the only way to survive would have been better. In that case we get to relate to him, only to have that relationship disconnected - which is what Yahtzee means in that quote. Both Kratos and Walker are shown as normal(ish) people at the beginning of their stories; Joel isn't.

All in all, good thought-provoking article Yahtzee. Now that I think about it it's kind of amazing how many games give us a choice as to how we play, then force us to kill when in a fight.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

You kinda have been reading it wrong. The death penalty is merely one of countless punishments that act as a deterrent, by itself it would never be enough to scare people into never committing a crime, even if it were used in excess. There are a myriad of punishments that when used effectively in conjunction reduce crime. The more effective those punishments are at creating fear, the better they are at acting as a deterrent.

I've also heard that "countries that don't have the death penalty have just as much crime as those who don't," before and it just doesn't hold water. That argument is a single cause fallacy, it assumes that the death penalty itself doesn't make a difference in crime because crime in various countries is roughly equal with or without it, but such an argument fails to take into account the countless other factors besides the death penalty that affect crime in each of these countries that could cause the number to even out, and it also assumes that this means that countries would be better off if they never had the death penalty, something that's impossible to determine. Either way, it's not really valid evidence one way or the other whether the death penalty is effective or not. The only way that such a line of reasoning would be valid is if every country on Earth had the death penalty simultaneously for say... 10 years, and then all dropped it simultaneously and compared the numbers, and even that would be affected by way too many factors to list.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

We like violence because we hate each other.

And I like my media violent, because senseless violence is fun and people suck.

 

[Jumplion]

Snip

You kinda have been reading it wrong. The death penalty is merely one of countless punishments that act as a deterrent, by itself it would never be enough to scare people into never committing a crime, even if it were used in excess. There are a myriad of punishments that when used effectively in conjunction reduce crime. The more effective those punishments are at creating fear, the better they are at acting as a deterrent.

In that respect we agree to an extent, and if you include "social suicide" as one of those punishments, I would agree completely. I apologize if I misread your comment.

I've also heard that "countries that don't have the death penalty have just as much crime as those who don't," before and it just doesn't hold water. That argument is a single cause fallacy, it assumes that the death penalty itself doesn't make a difference in crime because crime in various countries is roughly equal with or without it, but such an argument fails to take into account the countless other factors besides the death penalty that affect crime in each of these countries that could cause the number to even out, and it also assumes that this means that countries would be better off if they never had the death penalty, something that's impossible to determine. Either way, it's not really valid evidence one way or the other whether the death penalty is effective or not. The only way that such a line of reasoning would be valid is if every country on Earth had the death penalty simultaneously for say... 10 years, and then all dropped it simultaneously and compared the numbers, and even that would be affected by way too many factors to list.

That, however, I think is kind of bs. You can see with states that once had the death penalty but then removed it, crime had not changed significantly regardless of its enforcement. The argument isn't that the death penalty has a significant effect, but rather that it doesn't have a significant effect, and the removal of it in states that once had it should be enough to see that result. If you say "there's too many variables to determine anything", then we can't determine whether people like ice cream or not because it depends on the season, how the ice cream is made, what flavor, what brand, how it is served, waffle cone or cup, etc... I would assume that the studies that both of us have seen would have the courtesy to correct for any variable anomalies.

Regardless, if you'd like to talk more about this topic feel free to PM me as it's probably best to keep from clogging this thread from ancillary topics.

 

[Animyr]

In order to disconnect from something you have to connect to it in the first place. Showing the protagonist as Joel is shown from the very start doesn't allow for a disconnect - it just shows them as an unrepentant sociopathic killer, a mindset most of us can't get into. Now if they had shown us Joel acting as a normal person would have been acting at the beginning, then giving us a situation so bad that Joel accepts that being a ruthless killer is really the only way to survive would have been better. In that case we get to relate to him, only to have that relationship disconnected - which is what Yahtzee means in that quote. Both Kratos and Walker are shown as normal(ish) people at the beginning of their stories; Joel isn't.

Erm...yes he is. That's the entire point of the prologue section. It's a fairly short sequence, but crucial for exactly the reason that you described. Even if you don't think the sequence was effective (for some reason; it's one of the best scripted sequences in a recent game, IMHO), please don't pretend that they didn't try.

Unless, of course, you haven't played or watched the game at all and are relying on the incomplete information Yahtzee provided and out-of-context video clips to make your evaluation. That does seem to be going around on this thread.

Now while I do think that Yahtzee has completely (and bafflingly) misunderstood the game, and that LOU did a fine job at contextualizing it's violence in the exact way the games Spec ops was mocking didn't, I also think that it would have been better served if it had had less fighting and more peaceful activities like hunting and quiet exploration/travel through the environment. The story covers several months and skips time on several occasions; why did every episode the action slowed down to explore involve at least one firefight? It seems that Naughty dog just couldn't quite let go of the instinctive urge to pad every level out with enemy encounters that it acquired while making Uncharted games (Pittsburgh level, I'm looking at you).