Killing Joke Film Controversy SPOILERS

[JimB]

Does nobody remember that in Batman Beyond, Barbara has said that she had a thing for Batman, and it didn't work out when they tried to be more than partners?

That's fine because that Barbara Gordon is established to be her own person with her own motivations and her own goals. This Barbara Gordon is already established in the source comic book as being an object to motivate the male characters rather than a participant in her own story, and the movie doubles down on that by saying she has such monumentally low self-esteem as to risk her life fighting supervillains in order to get Batdaddy to notice her and grace her with his sacred Batjizz. That's not just dropping the ball, that's setting the ball on fire and dropping it into a garbage pit.

Even if this was all real life, she can sleep with whoever the hell she wants, even if you find it weird.

It is not real life, and it's not a choice Barbara Gordon makes. It's a choice the writers made to pad a movie by selling us the teasing thought of her inked-on nipples, and that choice is made at the expense of making her actually matter in the story she gets permanently crippled in.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I am just gonna watch this movie for Joker, and Mark Hamill nailed the books dialoge perfectly (For those who already read the book)

Spoiler

Now I really want to see the flashback sequences to see how Mark talks as the man before he became the Joker.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Eh that's enough of the movie for me. The rest is cheesy melodrama and Batman indulging Joker's Shakespearean soliloquies.
That's one thing I enjoyed about the Arkham verse Batman. He wants to stop the bad guys as quickly as possible, not let them drone on and on.

 

[Odbarc]

The Killing Joke was written a long time ago before a lot of rewrites, was it not? I don't recall the comic in detail (or if I even read it), but was was the relationship like from when it was brand new?
I'm assuming it was around the time where Jason Todd (Robin) was killed by Joker in an explosion or something. I'm half sure I read some of that.

If it was an older writers original work from way-back-when this may not have been an out-of-character development for Batgirl or Batman to be apart of.
Sex-for-power was more of Catwoman's thing. I think that most people associate Batgirl as a faux-adopted daughter of Batman by having the same themed costumes. In a sense some people might see this as a sort of incest / molestation from Batman. The writer(s) may have had the alternate perspective of not seeing them as in any way relatable other than their alter egos and at least put Batgirl in the position of instigator.

As someone whose not entirely into comics and I don't have a hardcore following on the characters outside of the TV and movies, I can't really say that I have any problem with either of them being together. It also, to me, felt more like the narrative was focused on Batgirl. She developed complex emotions for a mentor, tries to reconcile those emotions by confessing them to a friend for perspective, and then goes for the troupe 'I'm hysterical with emotions until I kiss you and then we go at it'.

The thing is Batman is almost a psychopath himself. In the movie they call it being "near the abyss" so it's not like Batman was ever going to seduce Batgirl on his own. If anything were to have happened, Batgirl had to position herself as more powerful (if for a moment, or THE moment) before it could happen. I think when she later reminisces to her friend that she calls the sex "Fantastic" just seemed like the writers had to get a little jolly over describing how well Batman can give it. As if he wasn't already amazing at everything else, this also had to be spelled out. It felt a little forced. I think a smarmy grin would have sufficed like a "A girl never tells." kind of way but you know it was the best.

 

[CaitSeith]

It obviously feels like the sole reason for that scene to exist is to say "SEE???? It's totally PG16 guyyys!!".... which actually makes it more immature.

Did you already watch it? Does it look more or less awkward than the sex scenes from Heavy Rain or Mass Effect?

 

[ecoho]

so yeah its heavily implied that bruce and Barbra had a thing going at one point in a few of the animated shows and movies.(mostly her pining after him and him resisting and such) to say that this came out of left field is just flat wrong.

 

[Orga777]

so yeah its heavily implied that bruce and Barbra had a thing going at one point in a few of the animated shows and movies.(mostly her pining after him and him resisting and such) to say that this came out of left field is just flat wrong.

It sucked then, and it sucks now. Bringing it back is asinine and just asking for trouble. I was looking forward to this movie, but now... now it seems like it is missing the ENTIRE point of what the Killing Joke was about in the first place. Like they needed a reason for Bruce to care about Barbra in a way that wasn't, you know, platonic in every single way. They had to make them some sort of lovers and pretty much degrade Barbra's character in the process. Unfortunate... Very unfortunate indeed.

 

[hermes]

After hearing about it, I thought it was stupid as a prologue and a change. It changes a lot of the dynamic of the people involved and somewhat diminishes the power of The Killing Joke.

I am thinking this was not to get to the ratings, but to give extra impact to what happens next. They probably thought there was no way to write a relationship between people of different genre without sex being involved... but it was unnecessary. It was not enough for the movie to show the Joker as an nonredeemable bastard, or to show the impact it had in one of the longest running characters in the series and her family (one that was kept around for the longest), but they thought they had to do it "more personal".

All it did was try to make it more personal for Batman, because they "mess with his woman", and that is incompetent writing.

 

[hermes]

so yeah its heavily implied that bruce and Barbra had a thing going at one point in a few of the animated shows and movies.(mostly her pining after him and him resisting and such) to say that this came out of left field is just flat wrong.

It was a dumb decision back them, too...

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I liked the movie. Sex scene felt off though. Always saw Bats as a father figure, not a lover.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It obviously feels like the sole reason for that scene to exist is to say "SEE???? It's totally PG16 guyyys!!".... which actually makes it more immature.

Did you already watch it? Does it look more or less awkward than the sex scenes from Heavy Rain or Mass Effect?

It's awkward because you don't see it coming, though it doesn't show anything. Barb takes her shirt off and the camera pans up.

 

[SirSullymore]

so yeah its heavily implied that bruce and Barbra had a thing going at one point in a few of the animated shows and movies.(mostly her pining after him and him resisting and such) to say that this came out of left field is just flat wrong.

Okay it didn't come out of NOWHERE, but it did kind of come out of left felid considering that this is not in continuity with the animated universe and is based on a self contained story that didn't have any indication of it in the slightest.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

I liked the movie. Sex scene felt off though. Always saw Bats as a father figure, not a lover.

I agree with Batman having more of a mentor/father role to his wards. Adding a romance between Bruce and Babs just feels off, partly because it wasn't there in the original graphic novel, and partly because both characters have much more/better established love interests in respectively Selina Kyle/Talia Al Ghul and Dick Grayson.

 

[kris40k]

So, just saw the movie last night, and ya'll mothers are freaking out over nothing.

I was kinda thrown off with the inclusion of the sexual relationship between Bruce and Barbara, because like many, I always saw it more of a mentor/mentee relationship, but in the movie she is a grown, adult woman and as a partner-in-crime(fighting) to Batman. She doesn't come across as "pining" for Batman, nor is it ever insinuated that the only reason she is fighting crime is to get Batman's attention. Anyone saying that is pulling shit out of their ass to stir up controversy, or maybe projecting In fact, when her co-worker is talking to her about her frustration with her "yoga instructor" and recommends that she do yoga somewhere else, she's frustrated that she can't. She's alluding to fighting crime elsewhere, not chasing Batman. She would stop being Batman's partner, but can't because she can't just leave Gotham.

The actual scene itself isn't the best done, but not the worst. Its the cliche mix of violence+sex as the two of them get frustrated with each other, cut lose fighting and end up fucking. Nothing is really seen as it cuts away pretty quick.

Afterwards, Batman is shown as the one who is acting weird over it. Barbara is frustrated that he is avoiding her, and calls him up trying to get him to relax saying, "It was just sex, it doesn't have to mean anything." so if anything, she seems more emotionally stable/stronger than him in that aspect. Which, while Batman is known to have flings as Bruce Wayne to keep up playboy'ish appearances, he isn't known for being very emotionally stable with relationships.

I found it mostly to be a bit of padding to flesh out the runtime of the story, as well as build up the character of Barbara/Batgirl for the audience to make the impact of the Joker's later actions more impactful. This is why:

Joker doesn't know who she really is. He only knows her as Commisioner Gordon's daughter.
Joker doesn't know she is romantically linked to the Batman.
Joker's ambush pretty much comes out of nowhere (unless you have previously read the book, of course). The scene goes from casual, Daddy-Daughter moment to "oh shit!" fast.

So, while Barbara is an important character to the audience, she is meaningless to the Joker. She's just a way to "get to" Gordon, mentally and emotionally, to the Joker. The fact that he shoots her so nonchalantly is meant to shock the audience. Which, even though I knew the story well, when she was opening the door and you see the Joker's grin, I was still cringing a bit internally, knowing what was coming.

The first bit of story actually builds up the character so she is an active participant in the story, and more meaningful to the audience, instead of just being a bystander who gets shot as part of the Joker's scheme.

It works, for the most part.

 

[Orga777]

So, just saw the movie last night, and ya'll mothers are freaking out over nothing.

I was kinda thrown off with the inclusion of the sexual relationship between Bruce and Barbara, because like many, I always saw it more of a mentor/mentee relationship, but in the movie she is a grown, adult woman and as a partner-in-crime(fighting) to Batman. She doesn't come across as "pining" for Batman, nor is it ever insinuated that the only reason she is fighting crime is to get Batman's attention. In fact, when her co-worker is talking to her about her frustration with her "yoga instructor" and recommends that she do yoga somewhere else, she's frustrated that she can't. She's alluding to fighting crime elsewhere, not chasing Batman. She would stop being Batman's partner, but can't because she can't just leave Gotham.

The actual scene itself isn't the best done, but not the worst. Its the cliche mix of violence+sex as the two of them get frustrated with each other, cut lose fighting and end up fucking. Nothing is really seen as it cuts away pretty quick.

Afterwards, Batman is shown as the one who is acting weird overit. Barbara is frustrated that he is avoiding her, and calls him up trying to get him to relax saying, "It was just sex, it doesn't have to mean anything." so if anything, she seems more emotionally stable/stronger than him in that aspect. Which, while Batman is known to have flings as Bruce Wayne to keep up playboy'ish appearences, he isn't known for being very emotionally stable with relationships.

I found it mostly to be a bit of padding to flesh out the runtime of the story, as well as build up the character of Barbara/Batgirl for the audience to make the impact of the Joker's later actions more impactful. This is why:

Joker doesn't know who she really is. He only knows her as Commisioner Gordon's daughter.
Joker doesn't know she is romanticly linked to the Batman.
Joker's ambush pretty much comes out of nowhere (unless you have previously read the book, of course).The scene goes from casual, Daddy-Daughter moment to "oh shit!" fast.

So, while Barbara is an important character to the audience, she is meaningless to the Joker. She's just a way to "get to" Gordon, mentally and emotionally, to the Joker. The fact that he shoots her so nonchalauntly is meant to shock the audience. Which, even though I knew the story well, when she was opening the door and you see the Joker's grin, I was still cringing a bit internally, knowing what was coming.

The first bit of story actually builds up the character so she is an active participant in the story, and more meaningful to the audience, instead of just being a bystander who gets shot as part of the Joker's scheme.

It works, for the most part.

Except they could of done all of that without the nonsensical inclusion of anything romantic happening between Bruce and Barbara. They made it so completely lazy and stereotypical that it is completely meaningless. There are so many different ways they could have done this without the lame trope-filled plot device they went with.

 

[Winnosh]

The scene is tacked on, adds nothing to the narritive and was already admitted to be added to give the audience unfamiliar with the character more reason to care when she gets shot. This was the only reason for it. That brings up a whole other host of problems in that the only way they could think of to get people to care for Babs is to say that she wanted to and did Fuck Bruce, see she's important, she fucked Batman. And Oh god all of the scenes with her in the library talking about this man she's seeing to her gay friend who's trying to hook her up with guys. I just wanted to fuggin fast forward to her getting shot for the actual story to begin.

 

[kris40k]

Except they could of done all of that without the nonsensical inclusion of anything romantic happening between Bruce and Barbara. They made it so completely lazy and stereotypical that it is completely meaningless. There are so many different ways they could have done this without the lame trope-filled plot device they went with.

Cliche? Yes.
Trope? Yes, 100% agree; but trope does not mean "bad", even TV Tropes will tell you that.

Nonsensical? Not at all. Sexual tension between partners is a very real thing and unless you are either asexual or have never worked a day in your life you'd know that.

Could it have been done in other ways, and better? Sure. I don't feel it was Macbeth by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't a crime against humanity, either. /shrug

 

[COMaestro]

Except they could of done all of that without the nonsensical inclusion of anything romantic happening between Bruce and Barbara. They made it so completely lazy and stereotypical that it is completely meaningless. There are so many different ways they could have done this without the lame trope-filled plot device they went with.

Cliche? Yes.
Trope? Yes, 100% agree; but trope does not mean "bad", even TV Tropes will tell you that.

Nonsensical? Not at all. Sexual tension between partners is a very real thing and unless you are either asexual or have never worked a day in your life you'd know that.

Could it have been done in other ways, and better? Sure. I don't feel it was Macbeth by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't a crime against humanity, either. /shrug

I'm in agreement with you. I saw it last night, it was a lazy trope, but it works for what it is and was pretty obviously done for people who are not familiar with Batman comics to make a greater connection to Barbara. It also works to give Batman more of a reason to be enraged when he encounters the Joker, which helps to add more impact to what actually happens at the end.

 

[stroopwafel]

I thought The Killing Joke was absolutely phenomenal. DC keeps putting out quality cartoons and this is among their best(with year one and dark knight returns). I loved the original graphich novel and the cartoon adaptation is very faithful but also acknowledges what would work in a cartoon and what would not. The changes they subsequently made to the story were so skillfully done that I almost favor them over the original(similair as TDKR).

As for the 'sex scene' I didn't feel it was out of place. Barbara looks up to Batman and it's fairly obvious his dominance and stature turns her on in some way. Sure, Batman(Bruce) is older but it's not like he's some out of shape, balding, couch potato. Naturally he wouldn't be able to resist when Barbara came on to him and despite Batman's stoic presense the affection he felt for Barbara really added vulnerability to the character that made the story even more impactful.

I love The Killing Joke and was really looking forward to the cartoon and damn did it deliver on all the high expectations I had of it.

 

[kris40k]

I'll also mention that The Killing Joke also made me feel a bit like a bastard considering the context when the Joker made the "coffee table edition" joke and I busted out laughing. I didn't remember if that was in the original. Luckily I wasn't the only one in the audience to do so.