Knights of the Old Republic
- Thread starter Nelle
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Yup.silver wolf009 said:
Although it's less noticeable in those games because dialogue takes place from a first person perspective, so you can't see your gormless fencepost protagonist.
Same for the old isometric Fallout games. The characters are too small to be expressive. Besides, in those games the NPCs aren't voiced either. (Except for the ones who are, but when you talk to them you can't see your character.)
PS. Yes, that was one hell of a URL.
Revan as a genius wasn't really played up until KOTOR 2. In KOTOR 1, Revan is really only described as Malak's sith master and a warlord. It wasn't until The Sith Lords came out, with Kreia's theory that he joined the Dark Side out of necessity, and GOTO's speculation that Revan's "barbarism" was actually a calculated effort to consolidate power and prepare for an invasion by the True Sith.Zhukov said:
Unfortunately, while this version of Revan stuck, it got so overinflated to the point where he was considered pretty much Jedi God by fanboys and Bioware when they got their hands on the franchise again. Throw out the nuance and just make him Jesus Christ Force User.
Actually, I always thought that the stuff about him in KOTOR2 was just silly.Soviet Heavy said:
"Hey, let's have a massive war to conquer the whole galaxy and thus unite it against the (ugh) Genuine Super Double Plus Sith!"
"Yeah, because a civilisation that has just been at war with itself for decades will be in a great state to defend itself!"
"Yup, let's do it!"
Some genius. I think I preferred him as a regular nasty sith dude with an identity crisis.
A lot of this I think can be attributed to the difference of interpretation between Bioware and Obsidian. The True Sith faction as described in KOTOR 2 was less an empire and more a force of nature. Then in The Old Republic, they are simply the proto Galactic Empire from the films. It loses a lot of the weight and mystery when this big, world eating force gets turned into generic dark Jedi.Zhukov said:
The Mandalorian conflict similarly got this treatment. It started out as a huge attempt by the Mandalorians to conquer the galaxy. But then, the whole thing got retconned into the Mandos being "lol JK" transformed into pawns of the True Sith as part of their efforts to attack the Galaxy.
The important thing about KOTOR 2 was that all the information you learn about Revan is full of holes and contradictions. Kreia lies to you every time you speak, Disciple's comments about Revan contradict everything she says, and GOTO and HK-47's opinions on Revan are shaped by their function and personality. HK sees the wanton cruelty of Revan and his effectiveness at killing. GOTO sees him purely through logistics, and sees a long term strategy in his moves.
The most important part of this is that nobody really knows why Revan turned to the Dark Side, or why he did what he did. The mystery and ambiguity left it open to the player's interpretation. Was he really planning for the True Sith's return? Or was he just a bloodthirsty warlord who saw his opportunity to seize power against a weakened state in the wake of a devastating conflict?
The worst thing you can do to a mystery is reveal the truth, because it almost always fails to live up to the puzzle.
I sort of saw it coming, but only an hour or so before with the last dream sequence. It was a very well-executed surprise that one 
They went for the Dragonball Z approach, where after a certain villain is defeated a super-duper villain who is pulling the strings shows up and everything beforehand is made insignificant.
Even though I absolutely loved the character building in Kotor 2, the introduction of the "true Sith" was just fail.
Yup, pretty much.Soviet Heavy said:
They went for the Dragonball Z approach, where after a certain villain is defeated a super-duper villain who is pulling the strings shows up and everything beforehand is made insignificant.
Even though I absolutely loved the character building in Kotor 2, the introduction of the "true Sith" was just fail.
This is my favourite thing about KotoR 2 in general because there's so many ways to read everything. You can see it as a deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, but it also works perfectly well played straight with the 'grey' areas being the justifications that lead them down the dark path until they can't see what they've become.Soviet Heavy said:
And because it's all ambiguous there's always things to think about, discuss and wonder about KotoR 2 that you don't get in other games
The first time I played KOTOR, I was shocked at the twist, and impressed with how well they foreshadowed it. And then disappointed that they didn't address the morality and repercussions of the Jedi Council mindraping Revan into a good person. The game basically went "Well, I guess you're just a super-moral Jedi now, act on your false identity and your morality built out of lies!"
On the other hand they were probably comparing her to Malak.Zhukov said:
And I have toenail clippings that look smart next to Darth Chinless.
Also, I was mostly raging about the shitty "Super Cutscene Force Power Activate" boss fight on the Leviathan, because I'd totally powercheesed my way through the game as a Guardian and I won the actual combat encounter in two rounds, but was then apparently helpless before the "awesome might" of someone who had just offered me about as much resistance as a piece of brie on a warm day.
A fatter interface, a lot more character and equipment customization, good to excellent writing, loose/contradictory plotting, drab environments, masterfully and subtly executed character arcs and interactions, and, unless you install TSLRCM [http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-sith-lords-restored-content-mod-tslrcm] (which you definitely, definitely should) massive bugs and a lack of character arc resolution.Nelle said:
Bioware do love their twists - they're ripe in almost every Bioware game there is. I'd personally have to say that I much prefer the 'Collector origins' twist from Mass Effect 2. The shivers I got from that moment can only be described with the following gif:
I saw the Revan one from a mile off sadly; as soon as I saw the obscured face I knew it was either a character I was familiar with or it was actually me which would be terribly convenient from both memory perspective and the convenient amnesia as well as the whole Bastila connection. Truthfully, I should've seen the collector origins twist coming but the gap between ME1 and ME2 was large enough to make it so I wouldn't draw the connection.
I saw the Revan one from a mile off sadly; as soon as I saw the obscured face I knew it was either a character I was familiar with or it was actually me which would be terribly convenient from both memory perspective and the convenient amnesia as well as the whole Bastila connection. Truthfully, I should've seen the collector origins twist coming but the gap between ME1 and ME2 was large enough to make it so I wouldn't draw the connection.
A darker tone, a deconstruction of RPG mechanics, and criticisms of black and white morality and the standard Star Wars assumptions. It's a fabulously written game, and one you really have to pay attention to and play a few times to get.Nelle said:
Install the Restored Content Mod. Do not play the game without it.
I played KotoR again just after I played ME3 and I was really disappointed to learn that Kai Leng'S stupid cutscene BS was a long held problem with Bioware. If you have a powerful combat character it's such a terrible terrible sequence. Like you I had a super cool guardian and I got really lucky on my first roll which meant Malak would have actually died to the first hit if they hadn't cheated by freezing his hitpoints.GloatingSwine said:
I just stacked all the guardian buffs at the start of every fight and utterly destroyed things in one round. Including Malak.BrotherRool said:
Even in the final boss fight, it generally went
1. Utterly destroy Malak's HP in one round of attacks.
2. Watch him restore it all.
3. Be annoyed that I don't have any powers that affect the HP boxes*
4. Repeat from 1
* Yeah, it's actually possible to make a build that cannot affect them at all, just focus on all the sabre combat skills and ignore Throw Lightsabre. It's even possible to end up in an unwinnable state if you aren't playing a super combat monster and you did this, late trained Consular will screw you in the last fight, even though the rest of the game is super easy for it.
And yeah, Bioware have pulled this shit before. They're really bad at writing credible villains that make you really believe they should be that powerful.